"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Saturnine
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:37 pm

sintzu wrote: It's only tough if they power down then up again, while in the form it doesn't have any issues.
Which is forced as fuck, has never been brought up before in relation to any previous SSj form as a mechanic and is plain silly. Hell, even SSj3 didn't have this, and Goku dropped out of it once during his fight vs Kid Buu. Should SSj Blue, hitherto described as very calm and with precise control, have such a ridiculous drawback? It of all forms?
sintzu wrote: Goku accessed it to stop Beerus' attack in the BOG movie.
Yeah, but he lost it one attack afterwards anyway. I thought of that more as a running on fumes sort of thing, a last stride of sorts.
sintzu wrote:It doesn't exist, it describes how strong their base is and was never meant as a separate form.
Still, if Goku absorbed power from it, what sense does it make to let him use it again at will? He already has the power, doing this shouldn't make him any stronger than at his new base form's max. Hell, even in the manga was there a panel with a SSj God shadow behind base Goku. So what is it now, a SSj God multiplier on top of a God-empowered base? Toyotaro done goofed is all.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:41 pm

Noah wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Your problem is that you don't like it. I don't like it either, but there is nothing contradictory here, unlike with what the anime did.
Our only problem with Kaioken is the 10x multiplier, if was a normal (2x) Kaioken, I think everybody would aprove, even with the 10x exaggeration of the anime I prefer over the manga.
Regular Kaio-ken x2 doesn't make any sense either. SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, Whis is a 15, and SSB Goku falls between SSG Goku & Beerus. Kaio-ken SSB Goku should be at least as strong as Whis, not weaker than Beerus & Champa.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:47 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheMikado wrote:

Have to disagree. The anime follows the movies and Toriyama's statements about Super Saiyan God, in which Goku doesn't need it anymore since he absorbed the power god godhood and he won't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore because they waste energy and he can become more powerful by just making his base and Super Saiyan forms more efficient. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both the move and Super's version of Resurrection 'F' presents it as a stable form of Super Saiyan god since it is Super Saiyan merged with god energy. Toriyama even described it as calm, which is why he chose the color blue. So the anime is more in line with Toriyama's statement.

The manga did its own thing and ignored Toriyama's own words.
Wait what? If it was accurate to the movies then SSG would be 70% Beerus full power let alone SSB and SSBxKKx10. Narrative wise the differences mean quite a bit in terms of how strong and at what level Gokus at and what potential threats he and Vegeta could handle.
Really, that is the only thing that does not line up with the movie, and it doesn't even exist in the anime. Beerus' upper limits are unknown in the Super anime and even using the 10% line, it was obviously more power than he needed to put down Vegeta since Vegeta didn't even hurt him unlike the move and got slapped out of Super Saiyan form. Even then, how big was the power up of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if it's stronger than Super Saiyan God that pushes Beerus to use 70% of power and Goku's base is said to be equal to Super Saiyan God.
That's a big freaking difference just imagine if there was a 1000% power difference between the anime and manga versions of Frieza and Cell or Buu.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Zephyr » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:59 pm

Saturnine wrote:Should SSj Blue, hitherto described as very calm and with precise control, have such a ridiculous drawback? It of all forms?
Described in the anime, the continuity in which this drawback doesn't exist, right? Unless I missed something about it being described as such in the manga as well.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by HeroR » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:00 pm

TheMikado wrote:
That's a big freaking difference just imagine if there was a 1000% power difference between the anime and manga versions of Frieza and Cell or Buu.
So, the anime made Beerus stronger, which makes sense given that Toriyama wasn't thinking about making more movies after Battle of Gods. When he did, he wanted to make Goku and Vegeta stronger, but still weaker than Beerus, despite being in good distance of him in Battle of Gods. Given how power increases usually work in Dragon Ball, Goku and Vegeta getting new forms should make them at least on par with Beerus and they got three years of training on top of that for the tournament. By the logic of Battle of Gods, Goku and Vegeta should be at least 80 to 90% of Beerus' full power, yet Toriyama said that he has no intention of letting them surpass Beerus at this point.

The anime did it right by simply cutting out that 70% line and leaving Beerus' full power vague.
Zephyr wrote:
Saturnine wrote:Should SSj Blue, hitherto described as very calm and with precise control, have such a ridiculous drawback? It of all forms?
Described in the anime, the continuity in which this drawback doesn't exist, right? Unless I missed something about it being described as such in the manga as well.
That line is only in the anime as far as I know. Although it being a calm form is backed up by Toriyama statement that he chose the color blue to show Goku's peaceful state of mind.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:09 pm

^ you do understand the manga is used as a promotional tool so when it actually works by getting someone to watch super and they realize the show is not making sense with what they know about the manga it could tune them off from the show/manga or both.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Araki » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:30 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ you do understand the manga is used as a promotional tool so when it actually works by getting someone to watch super and they realize the show is not making sense with what they know about the manga it could tune them off from the show/manga or both.
Do you really believe that? Don't worry, people who care about power levels and differences between anime and manga are watching the series from day one already.

And promotional manga are exactly like that. They never follow the anime to a T.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by HeroR » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:37 pm

Araki wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ you do understand the manga is used as a promotional tool so when it actually works by getting someone to watch super and they realize the show is not making sense with what they know about the manga it could tune them off from the show/manga or both.
Do you really believe that? Don't worry, people who care about power levels and differences between anime and manga are watching the series from day one already.

And promotional manga are exactly like that. They never follow the anime to a T.
And since the manga is actually behind the anime, most readers are most likely annoyed that they're not getting a sneak peak on what is going to happen in the Future Trunks Saga, and don't really care what happens in the tournament anymore unless they're exclusively manga readers. Less people also read V-Jump compared to watching Super.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:41 pm

Actually the Yu-Gi-Oh GX, 5D's, Zexal, Arc V all have manga completely different than the anime. Some of them is still going even to this day even though their anime counterpart ended years ago. That's probably the direction the Super manga is headed to keep people interested, because unless your a hardcore DB or manga fan, you probably don't want to read something that you already watched that's exactly the same. There's also other series that does this like Pokemon.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:53 pm

Xeztin wrote:Actually the Yu-Gi-Oh GX, 5D's, Zexal, Arc V all have manga completely different than the anime. Some of them is still going even to this day even though their anime counterpart ended years ago. That's probably the direction the Super manga is headed to keep people interested, because unless your a hardcore DB or manga fan, you probably don't want to read something that you already watched that's exactly the same. There's also other series that does this like Pokemon.
This actually makes sense and something I'd be happy with. So to answer other posters the manga and anime could likely split into different storylines and be two seperate products entirely which I would be more than fine with.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Noah » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:53 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Regular Kaio-ken x2 doesn't make any sense either. SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, Whis is a 15, and SSB Goku falls between SSG Goku & Beerus. Kaio-ken SSB Goku should be at least as strong as Whis, not weaker than Beerus & Champa.
You should forget about this outdated and misunderstood 6-10-15 scale, mate. It doesn't aply to Super in anywhere, is not like Toriyama prophesied these numbers, he was just expressing his thoughts about his characters strenght with random numbers.
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:21 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Xeztin wrote:Actually the Yu-Gi-Oh GX, 5D's, Zexal, Arc V all have manga completely different than the anime. Some of them are still going even to this day even though their anime counterpart ended years ago. That's probably the direction the Super manga is headed to keep people interested, because unless your a hardcore DB or manga fan, you probably don't want to read something that you already watched that's exactly the same. There's also other series that does this like Pokemon.
This actually makes sense and something I'd be happy with. So to answer other posters the manga and anime could likely split into different storylines and be two seperate products entirely which I would be more than fine with.
The Dragon Ball Super manga is most likely selling well, so I don't see it ending anytime soon. Toriyama isn't a full-fledged manga artist anymore and probably doesn't care about "No, this is how it really happened, this is canon" It's very possible for him to say stuff in interviews, and contradict himself months or years after. He probably forget's what he says the day after he does an interview. Not only that but you have editor's from Toei editing his script that might change something completely contradictory to what he said in the past and he's obviously okay with it.

He, Toei, or even Toyotaro could potentially have Goten go SSJ4 without any explanation what-so-ever and we'd just have to deal with it. I think people really need to stop trying to make a canon or make sense of everything, Dragon Ball is slowly becoming like Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon, I've preached it since Super's announcement that there will be plenty of spin-offs, retellings, games, figures that didn't appear in any material, anything that will sell. Examples: DB Heroes, DB Fusions, three different retellings of the same source material etc. Whatever sells it's going to be milked to hell and back.

Toriyama's getting older, he isn't like Oda or Kishimoto anymore to where there are boundary's that the author simply won't allow. It's not that he doesn't respect his creation, but he has a different view of it in his older age, something us fan's basically worship, he's forgotten about like his characters. He's had plenty of time to separate himself from something he probably wouldn't let anyone tinker with during it's serial. The money he makes certainly isn't going to make him look any different at it; if it's making money, why change it?

I think we simply need to accept what fan-bases like Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokemon have, and accept it's not the original serial 20 years ago that's a labor of love more than it's for the money. Dragon Ball Super's entire purpose is to make money and sell merchandise to children, not tell masterpieces of a story like it used to be. If a person can't accept that, he or she can always look back at the original material that made them like it in the first place and ignore the new.
Last edited by Xeztin on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:32 pm

^^^^ thank you I don't understand why it's so hard for people to come to terms with this. That's really all there is to it. Super just does not have the artistic integrity that was present in past DB series and it's fine to admit that.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:39 pm

On one hand, Toriyama doesn't like the Dragon Ball Super anime, and it isn't even designed to be the continuation of his original series in the first place, it is designed to be the continuation of Dragon Ball Z/Kai.

On the other hand, Toriyama likes the Dragon Ball Super manga, is more involved with it & cares enough for this "irrelevant promotional tool" to personally redraw pages, and the manga is designed to be the continuation of his original series.

I won't say what's more canon that the other, but some things are obvious. People don't choose what's canon based on facts, they choose what's canon based on their tastes.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:42 pm

^ so is it safe to say the manga is more likely canon than the anime?

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:43 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ so is it safe to say the manga is more likely canon than the anime?
That depends on your taste, as DBZGTKO5DH said.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:43 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:On one hand, Toriyama doesn't like the Dragon Ball Super anime, and it isn't even designed to be the continuation of his original series in the first place, it is designed to be the continuation of Dragon Ball Z/Kai.

On the other hand, Toriyama likes the Dragon Ball Super manga, is more involved with it & cares enough for this "irrelevant promotional tool" to personally redraw pages, and the manga is designed to be the continuation of his original series.

I won't say what's more canon that the other, but some things are obvious. People don't choose what's canon based on facts, they choose what's canon based on their tastes.
I don't think the man himself really cares about canon to begin with. I think he just wants to make something he likes that his target audience can enjoy.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:47 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ so is it safe to say the manga is more likely canon than the anime?
More likely ? yes, but we'll have to wait a bit and see what the anime does before saying it is for sure.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:49 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:On one hand, Toriyama doesn't like the Dragon Ball Super anime, and it isn't even designed to be the continuation of his original series in the first place, it is designed to be the continuation of Dragon Ball Z/Kai.

On the other hand, Toriyama likes the Dragon Ball Super manga, is more involved with it & cares enough for this "irrelevant promotional tool" to personally redraw pages, and the manga is designed to be the continuation of his original series.

I won't say what's more canon that the other, but some things are obvious. People don't choose what's canon based on facts, they choose what's canon based on their tastes.
There's obviously some boundaries that Toriyama has like the animation of the show being bad, he spoke out about that once or twice. Toriyama's a manga artist after all, not an animator, so he probably does favor the manga more so and is generous enough to help Toyotaro out with it. That isn't saying he accepts it as the true story, because it's obvious there is no true story. The way things are going, I believe the man is very open to any ideas from anyone, and he probably like's teaching and drawing with Toyotaro. I'm pretty sure the Future Trunks thing was suggested by Toei themselves. During his original serial, I doubt we'd ever see Vegeta in a Pink apron cooking, and he might even have been more like Togashi back then. He probably wouldn't want other peoples suggestions outside of his editor. Time has changed him and his view on his work, I suppose we need to change with him. He has shown over the year's he didn't like being ground into the dirt for material, like his employer's making the manga go on and on until he finally said stop it's enough. It probably feels good knowing he doesn't have to come up with everything.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Great! I'm glad we can finally stop beating people over the head with the "canon" stick now!

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