Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In any case whatever your metric is I can literally point you out dozens of inconsistencies to prove you that the manga it is very far and away from being "nearly perfect" when it comes to anything power-related.

Go ahead then. I can't think more than five at the moment (or even five at all), but I could be missing something.

[supercat]

I think the takeaway here is that both lines of continuity have one or more things that could be deemed inconsistent.

But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm still not sure why people seem so bothered by such instances. If the rate of which a character accelerates in strength was restricted to some formula, there wouldn't be much room for innovation and/or creativity. Seriously, if the series addressed power levels with a cookie-cutter approach, I'm pretty sure no one would have made it past Frieza.

In regards to power increases, the only thing that's really been consistent thus far is that they happen sporadically in varying amounts; usually as little or as much as the story necessitates.

[TheMikado]

Wow...the canon debate is spread out like everywhere today. Did someone kick a black cat that then went through a ladder, after tipping over some salt?

Well the problem is that the forum gives precedence to the original Japanese manga as it is deemed closer to the original artists vision and the source material.
Now we have Super the anime deemed as the "source material" from Toriyamas outline but we also have a deviation in Super's manga plus the movies which also have unique contuity. As soon as the forum was stated to give a preference to a specific type of media and format, it was set up for this debate with any new material. If they media formats continue to deviate in content then this conversation will only escalate on tone until an admin decides to determine which is the preferred format like that did with Dragonball and Dragonball Z. Right now we don't have that so everyone is fighting over which version is more valid or should be ignored. I just hope this gets resolved soon so that we can go back to discussing the content.

[Bullza]

Well of the three versions the movies should be considered most canon because they were written by Toriyama himself whereas the anime and manga are just adaptations of the story he wrote.

For the stuff after that then the anime and manga just have their own interpretation of the plot outline by Toriyama. The anime though includes filler and the manga does not. Still I'd say the anime takes precedence over the manga and I'd say it's probably more accurate to what was said and written by Toriyama in that Goku did absorb the power of God and that's why he doesn't need it to use it anymore which is not the case in the manga.

[dbzfan7]

I'd say it's probably more accurate to what was said and written by Toriyama in that Goku did absorb the power of God and that's why he doesn't need it to use it anymore which is not the case in the manga.

If we're going by the interview, isn't it likely Toriyama saw Toyotara add SSJG in his storyboard, and signed off on it?

[ekrolo2]

I'd say it's probably more accurate to what was said and written by Toriyama in that Goku did absorb the power of God and that's why he doesn't need it to use it anymore which is not the case in the manga.

If we're going by the interview, isn't it likely Toriyama say Toyotara add SSJG in his storyboard, and signed off on it?

That's my thought on this too. If Toriyama really felt bothered by SSG coming back in the manga, I'm pretty sure he would've told him to veto the idea. Its not like Toyotaro doesn't have time to do alterations given the month of time between chapter releases.

[The Monkey King]

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

Why is it that when anyone thinks their "above" power level discussions they have to announce it in the most smug and arrogant way possible?

Also in a show centred around fighting if you can't keep the strength levels of you characters consistent that is bad writing.

[Bullza]

I'm not sure what Toriyama's involvement in the manga actually is outside of assuming he hands the same plot outline to the guy who does the manga.

In the Battle of Gods movie even after the time limit ran out and he'd absorbed the power he was still able to transform back into SSJG once again.

The manga seems to have the same train of thought that he can still do that I suppose.

But Toriyama said he wouldn't need to transform into that anymore but that interview was from 2013 but it wasn't involved in his Resurrection F movie and it's implied that they're just supposed to be that strong in Base form but just because it wasn't in that movie doesn't mean it can't still be a thing.

So who knows. I'd like to say the whole Kaioken thing was just Toei's idea and the SSJG reappearance is just Toyotaro's idea. Both don't fit with what Toriyama has wrote but I think the former would make more sense.

The 6/10/15 scale. The 10% and 70% lines. Goku and Vegeta being able to go toe to toe with Beerus could all still be true in Toriyama's mind and Toei have just messed that up by including Kaioken.

[dbzfan7]

I'd say it's probably more accurate to what was said and written by Toriyama in that Goku did absorb the power of God and that's why he doesn't need it to use it anymore which is not the case in the manga.

If we're going by the interview, isn't it likely Toriyama say Toyotara add SSJG in his storyboard, and signed off on it?

That's my thought on this too. If Toriyama really felt bothered by SSG coming back in the manga, I'm pretty sure he would've told him to veto the idea. Its not like Toyotaro doesn't have time to do alterations given the month of time between chapter releases.

Exactly. He had to have seen that. We could argue the same for the Kaio-Ken idea possibly too. I don't know. We know he checks Toyotaro's story board. We don't know how much of the anime he checks. It'd be intruiging if like the Resurrection F movie, we got a outline for Super. He doesn't write the overall episode, but just the overall plot of the arc.

[Chiki]

I also find it hilarious how some people are implying that inconsistency in power levels is equivalent to bad writing.

Why is it that when anyone thinks their "above" power level discussions they have to announce it in the most smug and arrogant way possible?

Also in a show centred around fighting if you can't keep the strength levels of you characters consistent that is bad writing.

Just don't reply to him. It's weird if you think that it's good to have inconsistent power levels in a manga about fighting.

===

What do you guys about the debate between who's stronger, RoF Gohan vs. Kid Trunks? I honestly think Kid Trunks might be stronger after seeing his power being enough for Instant Transmission.

The only evidence that Gohan is stronger is the Tagoma battle (where he is clearly > Piccolo) which probably isn't even canon.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Hey guys...this is just a serious question so if I'm way off base correct me


Does Ki Control literally mean you don't use any Ki? Because I always considered it similar to gas in a car but extreme of course. You can make that gas more efficient but in the end you have to burn through it at some point. Yes in the Cell Saga Goku and Gohan are able to access extended periods in forms that burn energy....however I dont think its ever stated that their Ki never decreases.

Also is it possible that Ki becomes a hell of a lot harder to control as your physical body drains? By the time Goku went SSB against Hit he was already pretty worn down. Also even as a SSB he used a lot of physical energy. Could it be that Ki leaks more and more as your physical body wears down? After all King Kai basically told Goku never to go Kaio-Ken past a certain point because "His Body Cant Handle It".

In this context it makes sense why Goku couldn't keep up his Kaio-Ken Blue x10. His physical body can withstand Blue for periods of time, but between the increased Ki of the Kaio-Ken and physical battle taking place he was likely unable to regulate his Ki properly.

[dbzfan7]

Mastering SSJ didn't mean that their ki and stamina wouldn't drop, it just removed the extra taxing. So like anyone who exerts themselves, they will tire out as SSJ's still. Basically Goku was exerting himself as an SSJ to try and keep up with Hit, which just like with Cell, would end up causing him to lose in the long run.

[ekrolo2]

Hey guys...this is just a serious question so if I'm way off base correct me


Does Ki Control literally mean you don't use any Ki? Because I always considered it similar to gas in a car but extreme of course. You can make that gas more efficient but in the end you have to burn through it at some point. Yes in the Cell Saga Goku and Gohan are able to access extended periods in forms that burn energy....however I dont think its ever stated that their Ki never decreases.

Also is it possible that Ki becomes a hell of a lot harder to control as your physical body drains? By the time Goku went SSB against Hit he was already pretty worn down. Also even as a SSB he used a lot of physical energy. Could it be that Ki leaks more and more as your physical body wears down? After all King Kai basically told Goku never to go Kaio-Ken past a certain point because "His Body Cant Handle It".

In this context it makes sense why Goku couldn't keep up his Kaio-Ken Blue x10. His physical body can withstand Blue for periods of time, but between the increased Ki of the Kaio-Ken and physical battle taking place he was likely unable to regulate his Ki properly.

Ki control is basically controlling your Ki. For example, by controlling his Ki Goku can use Kaio-ken or any number of other transformations at his disposal. In the context of just transformationed states, Ki control seems to imply the user being able to decide on how much power they want to put out in a given form.

Untrained Super Saiyans, apparently, always give you a x50 boost in power and you don't seem to have much say in that. Once Super Saiyan got mastered, its shown that Goku can pretty much drop it to base or even regular human levels of strength without actually reverting to base. Its even implied that with his mastery he can power Super Saiyan to levels similar to the graded forms.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Mastering SSJ didn't mean that their ki and stamina wouldn't drop, it just removed the extra taxing. So like anyone who exerts themselves, they will tire out as SSJ's still. Basically Goku was exerting himself as an SSJ to try and keep up with Hit, which just like with Cell, would end up causing him to lose in the long run.

You worded it better than I did but basically what I was getting at. I only mention it because people seem angry his energy drained....while I think a God Kaio-Ken was probably the coolest thing I've seen DB pull out in a while. He MAY have been stronger than Beerus in that moment at full strength (he wasn't) but they seemed to cover that by stating it's not a viable technique and Goku may even lose his abilities.

[dbzfan7]

I find the Kaio-Ken x10 silly because it's really hard to not see how it wouldn't make Goku stronger than Beerus. Especially when he isn't supposed to be. Whis already said if Goku and Vegeta work together, they could potentially beat Beerus. A Kaio-Ken X2 or up with Vegeta would practically guarantee a win. It's also hard to believe Hit isn't destroyed by a person over 10x stronger than he is. He's not even physically that hurt from the attacks. He's hurt, but it should hurt a hell of a lot more than what was portrayed.

Also Goku I think said he had like a 10% chance of survival, and then he can somehow multiply the Kaio-ken 10 fold and not die? Doesn't sit well with me.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I find the Kaio-Ken x10 silly because it's really hard to not see how it wouldn't make Goku stronger than Beerus. Especially when he isn't supposed to be. Whis already said if Goku and Vegeta work together, they could potentially beat Beerus. A Kaio-Ken X2 or up with Vegeta would practically guarantee a win. It's also hard to believe Hit isn't destroyed by a person over 10x stronger than he is. He's not even physically that hurt from the attacks. He's hurt, but it should hurt a hell of a lot more than what was portrayed.

Also Goku I think said he had like a 10% chance of survival, and then he can somehow multiply the Kaio-ken 10 fold and not die? Doesn't sit well with me.

Well who is to say in that moment he wasn't stronger than Beerus? Also Goku seemingly held back because Hit couldn't use his techniques due to the rules.. If you believe Goku didn't hold back you'd have to believe Hit would probably defeat him easily since as an assassin he was probably using 5% of his arsenal to that point. In that case I concede to your point.

Now I know it was said Goku/Vegeta wouldn't surpass Beerus soon but at the same time a one time technique that not only can kill you but may also remove your ability to control Ki permanently really being stronger than Beerus? I'd say its not.

[dbzfan7]

I find the Kaio-Ken x10 silly because it's really hard to not see how it wouldn't make Goku stronger than Beerus. Especially when he isn't supposed to be. Whis already said if Goku and Vegeta work together, they could potentially beat Beerus. A Kaio-Ken X2 or up with Vegeta would practically guarantee a win. It's also hard to believe Hit isn't destroyed by a person over 10x stronger than he is. He's not even physically that hurt from the attacks. He's hurt, but it should hurt a hell of a lot more than what was portrayed.

Also Goku I think said he had like a 10% chance of survival, and then he can somehow multiply the Kaio-ken 10 fold and not die? Doesn't sit well with me.

Well who is to say in that moment he wasn't stronger than Beerus? Also Goku seemingly held back because Hit couldn't use his techniques due to the rules.. If you believe Goku didn't hold back you'd have to believe Hit would probably defeat him easily since as an assassin he was probably using 5% of his arsenal to that point. In that case I concede to your point.

Now I know it was said Goku/Vegeta wouldn't surpass Beerus soon but at the same time a one time technique that not only can kill you but may also remove your ability to control Ki permanently really being stronger than Beerus? I'd say its not.

It could be argued fair enough, but from Toriyama saying he has no intention of them surpassing Beerus soon, that'd throw a wrench in that. Goku also I don't think held back at all. He's never said to have held back. Hit only held back in the sense he can't use his killing techniques, which his moveset probably depends on more.

It only really seemed bad because Goku went to multiply the pressure 10 fold. Just a times 2 would allow Goku to beat Beerus if we go by the previous numbers Toriyama threw out. There's also the silliness of how Kaio-Ken works with SSJB as I don't buy it's a perfect ki control form when it strains so much, and it the actual perfect balance form somehow is incompatible.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I find the Kaio-Ken x10 silly because it's really hard to not see how it wouldn't make Goku stronger than Beerus. Especially when he isn't supposed to be. Whis already said if Goku and Vegeta work together, they could potentially beat Beerus. A Kaio-Ken X2 or up with Vegeta would practically guarantee a win. It's also hard to believe Hit isn't destroyed by a person over 10x stronger than he is. He's not even physically that hurt from the attacks. He's hurt, but it should hurt a hell of a lot more than what was portrayed.

Also Goku I think said he had like a 10% chance of survival, and then he can somehow multiply the Kaio-ken 10 fold and not die? Doesn't sit well with me.

Well who is to say in that moment he wasn't stronger than Beerus? Also Goku seemingly held back because Hit couldn't use his techniques due to the rules.. If you believe Goku didn't hold back you'd have to believe Hit would probably defeat him easily since as an assassin he was probably using 5% of his arsenal to that point. In that case I concede to your point.

Now I know it was said Goku/Vegeta wouldn't surpass Beerus soon but at the same time a one time technique that not only can kill you but may also remove your ability to control Ki permanently really being stronger than Beerus? I'd say its not.

It could be argued fair enough, but from Toriyama saying he has no intention of them surpassing Beerus soon, that'd throw a wrench in that. Goku also I don't think held back at all. He's never said to have held back. Hit only held back in the sense he can't use his killing techniques, which his moveset probably depends on more.

It only really seemed bad because Goku went to multiply the pressure 10 fold. Just a times 2 would allow Goku to beat Beerus if we go by the previous numbers Toriyama threw out. There's also the silliness of how Kaio-Ken works with SSJB as I don't buy it's a perfect ki control form when it strains so much, and it the actual perfect balance form somehow is incompatible.

That is fair enough. My only counter is what I said before:

It's possible that Goku had too much Ki in his body to control it. What I mean by that....even though Goku can sustain SSJ form he still had to learn to control a much larger amount of Ki in God form. Maybe the Kaio-Ken he used was too much for him to regulate. I mean think of how much power x10 is in God form. He had only recently even learned to control his God Ki.

I do think saying SSB alone drains a lot of stamina was really dumb.

[Nejishiki]

An odd thing concerning Kaioken and the scaling Toriyama used for Battle of Gods: Why do people take it to mean that those numbers are literal battle powers? I mean, it just feels wrong to assume the anime version of events means, "Goku multiplied his battle power to around 60". This is especially the case when supposed numbers were stated to be hard to measure with machinery by Vegeta and assumed numbers wouldn't multiply so highly once we're in double digit figures, yet alone triple digit and above, just for a loose example.

[Bullza]

Well the numbers still work with the manga.

If anything the 10% line made sense and it's Goku going Kaioken that doesn't make sense. Whoever wrote the line about Vegeta using 10% was obviously working with what was said in the movie.

They seem to have completely forgot/ignored that though when it came to Kaioken. The manga made the more fitting choice I suppose even if it wasn't as interesting or exciting (and arguably shouldn't have included SSJG).