"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[sintzu]

No one who watched the Champa arc is going to feel like Goku did everything he could against a future threat if he doesn't use it again.

Or if he doesn't train it to be more useful or if Vegeta doesn't try to learn it or learn something similar.

[Xeztin]

But Toriyama approved everything and literal stamps his name on it all. It's weird hearing people say the SSB in the manga isn't canon but the SSBxKK is when Toei clearly completely invented it. Super weird, almost as if people want the things that they like validated as canon. Basically I'm of the mind that if Toriyama allows it with the Dragonball name then it's "canon" period. And each is as valid as the next within its own continuity. No exceptions. Otherwise we start getting into the above scenarios.

For some reason some people have to have something in their mindset "that really happened" when it's all a fictional world to begin with. I do get where they are coming from though, so in that aspect everyone can choose whatever you want to be canon, but don't push it on others. I don't have a canon thing, I simply look at it as one big franchise sort to speak contradictory's and all. I just look at the Super manga, anime, and movies as retellings of the same source, GT however is a different story. I like GT, but when you try to have a conversation about it and start trying to make it line up with Super it's not going to work so side story it is for me.

[TheMikado]

No one who watched the Champa arc is going to feel like Goku did everything he could against a future threat if he doesn't use it again.

Or if he doesn't train it to be more useful or if Vegeta doesn't try to learn it or learn something similar.

Exactly we are always going to have those questions, except the Vegeta not learning it thing doesn't matter at this point when no one else who trained directly under King Kai bothered to learn the technique. Forget keep Piccolo/Tien/Yamcha relevant by allowing hem to master a x50-x100 kaioken. God forbid, but that's my own personal gripe sorry.

[ryou766]

Someone mentioned that Toriyama redrew one of Toyotaro's panels/pages? Which would that be? I don't believe I've ever seen it.

[Araki]

Someone mentioned that Toriyama redrew one of Toyotaro's panels/pages? Which would that be? I don't believe I've ever seen it.

It was nothing interesting really, pretty much just scribbles of a gag scene, that penguin-like creature singing the universe's anthem.
See, a gag is exactly the kind of thing Toriyama would care enough to give directions. Power levels and such? Ha...
Seriously though, maybe he was just proud of that joke.

[MajinMan]

The canon debate has been destroyed ever since we found out how different the DBS anime and manga were. I don't see a point in complaining/debating about it anymore. This chapter further solidifies my stance.

[Kishido]

Nothing of this makes sense... Not the power level portraying not the stamina issues with normal Supwr Saiyan

---------Part 1---------''
Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (while fighting Hit), and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

---------Part 2---------
Fun note. Hit doesn't use ki/stamina to perform his Time-Skip. He can use it indefinitely without weakening himself, but can't use it when drained. As he states that he might only be able to handle one more Time-Skip at full power before it runs out.

Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.

Hit can only fully Time-Stop opponents for the full 0.1 seconds if they're weaker than him. The further they are above him, the less it lasts. So when goku goes SSG, he has trouble holding him back the full time.

Unlike the anime where hit has a set level of power at first, and then later makes huge gains to his power and improved Time-Skip via "growth", Manga!Hit is just hiding his true power at first and unleashes it to counter SSG. He says it's been so long since he used it, that it may not even last a minute.

My biggest issue with the anime is solved here. Goku doesn't ask for the tournament to be turned into a death match. He realizes that, being an assassin, Hit is restricted by the rules. So he just exits the ring and asks to fight again some other time.

Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku after all. Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Zeno's assistants don't seem to say Arale's "Bye'cha", at least not in the Korean version. That's...something.. I guess?''

[ssj_duelist]

Wow this made no sense, the anime was not only a better fight but was much better written. Ssj and ssb having stamina issues makes no sense. The power scaling was awful as well. I'll stick to the anime. Ssb kk made sense, as did the stamina drawback. Goku and Hit'a forfeiting made more sense as well.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Once again, Super Saiyan is not wasting stamina. Admittedly, it's my fault for wording that poorly when i put the information out there, but he's only wasting his energy by taxing his body to move super fast in order to keep up with Hit's movements and Time-Skip. It's no different than in the Cell Arc, where despite having mastered Super Saiyan, Goku still gets tired and loses energy fighting Cell.

[dbzfan7]

Once again, Super Saiyan is not wasting stamina. Admittedly, it's my fault for wording that poorly when i put the information out there, but he's only wasting his energy by taxing his body to move super fast in order to keep up with Hit's movements and Time-Skip. It's no different than in the Cell Arc, where despite having mastered Super Saiyan, Goku still gets tired and loses energy fighting Cell.

Don't know why people don't understand that. It's the same as the fight with Cell. Goku doesn't become a cyborg with infinite energy .

[Noah]

The canon debate has been destroyed ever since we found out how different the DBS anime and manga were. I don't see a point in complaining/debating about it anymore. This chapter further solidifies my stance.

Good point, but I still don't understand the point of having two different stories, isn't the manga purpose to promote the anime? So why it has to be different? I don't care about minor things, but things like the return of Super Saiyan God over Kaioken is too much.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think the man himself really cares about canon to begin with. I think he just wants to make something he likes that his target audience can enjoy.

We know he only follows the stories he wrote at this moment, be it his own manga (DB, Jaco, DB Minus), movie scripts (BoG, FnF), or original story drafts (JSAT, Super), and he ignores stuff he didn't write (original movies, filler, GT, video games, etc), and he doesn't mind what they do in the stories he didn't write (he was asked to be involved with XenoVerse for example, but he left almost everything to them). He hasn't come out and said "this & that is canon, but this & that isn't" like Lucas did with Star Wars, but it is obvious from his stories that he does follow specific stories instead of randomly doing whatever he wants (we won't see SS4 Goku vs SS4 Broli in his stories). And even though it's not entirely clear which versions of his stories he follows exactly, we know that he prefers the Kanzenban version of his manga, and that he prefers the manga adaptations of JSAT & Super over the anime adaptations, so this should give us a good idea, I think. Nothing is officially set in stone, and who knows, maybe Toriyama will write a story that ignores BoG/FnF/Super at some point, but we know he includes these events in his stories for now.

There's obviously some boundaries that Toriyama has like the animation of the show being bad, he spoke out about that once or twice. Toriyama's a manga artist after all, not an animator, so he probably does favor the manga more so and is generous enough to help Toyotaro out with it. That isn't saying he accepts it as the true story, because it's obvious there is no true story. The way things are going, I believe the man is very open to any ideas from anyone, and he probably like's teaching and drawing with Toyotaro. I'm pretty sure the Future Trunks thing was suggested by Toei themselves. During his original serial, I doubt we'd ever see Vegeta in a Pink apron cooking, and he might even have been more like Togashi back then. He probably wouldn't want other peoples suggestions outside of his editor. Time has changed him and his view on his work, I suppose we need to change with him. He has shown over the year's he didn't like being ground into the dirt for material, like his employer's making the manga go on and on until he finally said stop it's enough. It probably feels good knowing he doesn't have to come up with everything.

Just because others suggest him ideas doesn't mean anything. He's been taking ideas from others (like his wife) ever since the first chapters of his manga.

He redrew one panel. Also he looks over the scripts for the anime too. Nothing really implies he has much more control over the manga.

He redrew one panel, that we know of. And he redrew at least one panel, up until now. Looking over scripts doesn't mean anything, he's been doing that for years now for almost everything, the DB/Z anime, the original 17 movies, GT, Episode of Bardock manga, and yet he ignores all of them.

Those are certainly a lot of personal assumptions and preferences you're throwing around as facts.
I'd like you to present proofs for all those points, please?

What exactly is an assumption?

• "Toriyama doesn't like the Dragon Ball Super anime..."
  He has complained about it in public in a recent interview:

  I had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it’s become a series I like too much to ever leave alone.

  And according to kei17's sources, he was dissatisfied with the Super anime so much that they had to convince him & give him ideas to stay and keep writing story drafts.

• "...it isn't even designed to be the continuation of his original series in the first place, it is designed to be the continuation of Dragon Ball Z/Kai."
  We have already seen anime-only elements in Super, like Gregory, the Frog-Ginyu sub-plot, and Mr. Satan's crew, which contradict the manga.

• "Toriyama likes the Dragon Ball Super manga..."
  He likes Toyotaro's work, to the point that he wants him more involved, and he has called his manga the continuation of his story.

  "Frankly… I’m perfectly satisfied with things the way they’re going (laughs)."
  
  "I think it would be great if you included more of your own original ideas. I’m really grateful to you. I never thought an artist like you would come along to draw the continuation of my story!"

• "...is more involved with it & cares enough for this "irrelevant promotional tool" to personally redraw pages..."
  He oversees both manga & anime, but he makes his own changes in the manga whenever he wants. Though to be fair, he isn't an animator to make changes to the anime, but he is still more involved.

• "...the manga is designed to be the continuation of his original series."
  The manga ignores anime-only stuff like Gregory (though Toyotaro used the anime design for kid Vegeta, for some reason).

[ekrolo2]

The canon debate has been destroyed ever since we found out how different the DBS anime and manga were. I don't see a point in complaining/debating about it anymore. This chapter further solidifies my stance.

Good point, but I still don't understand the point of having two different stories, isn't the manga purpose to promote the anime? So why it has to be different? I don't care about minor things, but things like the return of Super Saiyan God over Kaioken is too much.

The KKs return only really works if you want to accept the idea Super Saiyan was never mastered, basically by virtue of retconning one of the few good ideas and executions of the Cell arc.

SSG doesn't break anything in-universe by virtue of coming back. Them having access to Super Saiyan and their base forms being weaker than they are in the films already sets a precedent that these guys, while absorbing the power of God, need various transformations to fully tap into this power.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think the man himself really cares about canon to begin with. I think he just wants to make something he likes that his target audience can enjoy.

We know he only follows the stories he wrote at this moment, be it his own manga (DB, Jaco, DB Minus), movie scripts (BoG, FnF), or original story drafts (JSAT, Super), and he ignores stuff he didn't write (original movies, filler, GT, video games, etc), and he doesn't mind what they do in the stories he didn't write (he was asked to be involved with XenoVerse for example, but he left almost everything to them). He hasn't come out and said "this & that is canon, but this & that isn't" like Lucas did with Star Wars, but it is obvious from his stories that he does follow specific stories instead of randomly doing whatever he wants (we won't see SS4 Goku vs SS4 Broli in his stories). And even though it's not entirely clear which versions of his stories he follows exactly, we know that he prefers the Kanzenban version of his manga, and that he prefers the manga adaptations of JSAT & Super over the anime adaptations, so this should give us a good idea, I think. Nothing is officially set in stone, and who knows, maybe Toriyama will write a story that ignores BoG/FnF/Super at some point, but we know he includes these events in his stories for now.

I don't think any of that is a substitution for caring about canon. I'm pretty sure if you brought these kinda questions to him, he'd probably just say "Sure why not." Toriyama's pretty laid back from his interviews. Whether we can find patterns in what he leans towards doesn't really concern me much. Til like Disney they come out and say what is what, then fans can speculate and really do what they want.

[sintzu]

Isn't the manga purpose to promote the anime ?

So why it has to be different ?

I don't care about minor things, but things like the return of Super Saiyan God over Kaioken is too much.

That was just speculation when it was announced but that's clearly not the case, especially with Toriyama being involved with it.

Chances are the anime is the one being different from Toriyama's story, not the manga.

If Kaioken doesn't show up or isn't brought up again then we'll know it was a one time thing from Toei.

[Chelentano]

If Kaioken doesn't show up or isn't brought up again then we'll know it was a one time thing from Toei.

That's exactly my thought.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think any of that is a substitution for caring about canon. I'm pretty sure if you brought these kinda questions to him, he'd probably just say "Sure why not." Toriyama's pretty laid back from his interviews. Whether we can find patterns in what he leans towards doesn't really concern me much. Til like Disney they come out and say what is what, then fans can speculate and really do what they want.

He dodges these kinds of questions. He was asked questions regarding EoB, in an EoB book, and not only he dodged these questions, he even ignored EoB as a whole in some of his answers (he ignored Chilled when talking about Freeza's Clan, and he called Bardock a Saiyan that never reached the level of the elites, when in EoB he is a freaking Super Saiyan). He also makes a distinction between his stories & the stories others write in his interviews, and has even flat out said that specific stories (the original movies) don't happen in his continuity.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think any of that is a substitution for caring about canon. I'm pretty sure if you brought these kinda questions to him, he'd probably just say "Sure why not." Toriyama's pretty laid back from his interviews. Whether we can find patterns in what he leans towards doesn't really concern me much. Til like Disney they come out and say what is what, then fans can speculate and really do what they want.

He dodges these kinds of questions. He was asked questions regarding EoB, in an EoB book, and not only he dodged these questions, he even ignored EoB as a whole in some of his answers (he ignored Chilled when talking about Freeza's Clan, and he called Bardock a Saiyan that never reached the level of the elites, when in EoB he is a freaking Super Saiyan). He also makes a distinction between his stories & the stories others write in his interviews, and has even flat out said that specific stories (the original movies) don't happen in his continuity.

Probably because he thinks he'll be a buzzkill for people if he says a story they really like "doesn't count" or something.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think any of that is a substitution for caring about canon. I'm pretty sure if you brought these kinda questions to him, he'd probably just say "Sure why not." Toriyama's pretty laid back from his interviews. Whether we can find patterns in what he leans towards doesn't really concern me much. Til like Disney they come out and say what is what, then fans can speculate and really do what they want.

He dodges these kinds of questions. He was asked questions regarding EoB, in an EoB book, and not only he dodged these questions, he even ignored EoB as a whole in some of his answers (he ignored Chilled when talking about Freeza's Clan, and he called Bardock a Saiyan that never reached the level of the elites, when in EoB he is a freaking Super Saiyan). He also makes a distinction between his stories & the stories others write in his interviews, and has even flat out said that specific stories (the original movies) don't happen in his continuity.

Fair enough. But I don't take it as him deciding on canon and what not. I don't think he himself wants to try and dive into all the lore and background of the series. The manga is enough as is. I don't think he goes out of his way to discredit or tell people what they can and can't include. I think that's merely a fan rule. I'm curious to see those dodges though as he himself knows he contradicts himself, and says it's ok since he's the author.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Fair enough. But I don't take it as him deciding on canon and what not. I don't think he himself wants to try and dive into all the lore and background of the series. The manga is enough as is. I don't think he goes out of his way to discredit or tell people what they can and can't include. I think that's merely a fan rule. I'm curious to see those dodges though as he himself knows he contradicts himself, and says it's ok since he's the author.

We won't see him coming out saying "GT is not canon, but Super is", but it's obvious that at this moment, in his own stories, GT is ignored & Super is not. But other stories, such as XenoVerse, don't ignore any of them. So, we don't have a true canon for this franchise, either through a direct statement or implication, but we can see through implication that Toriyama has a personal canon in his mind.