I disagree completely there. SSJ4, Baby, and the Shadow Dragons are all incredible ideas in my eyes.MaGyunia wrote:DBSuper does have fantastic concepts, when GT lacks them completely.
"with the transformed Janenba, the order from the anime staff was for a “demonic-looking character”, so I drew a rough design with spiral shapes entwined around his arms and legs, which I showed to sensei. He checked it and sent it back, and that became the real design for transformed Janenba. So the faint blood vessel-like things on his arms and legs are remnants of the rough draft"Bullza wrote:Are Garlic Jr and Janemba Toriyama 's designs?
Regardless of how the quality of lack thereof with which they executed the concepts, I was talking about the concepts. I should correct myself and point out that there is one concept I find attractive about GT, the only one worthy of DB and DBZ, and that's Super Saiya-jin 4. It goes beyond the visual aspect, although it's a mess when it comes to explain how it's achieved and just how powerful one is in that stage. The Shadow Dragons, Baby, even Super 17 were hastily-thought of and introduced concepts to try to make the series more DBZ-like in a rush and in desperation when they saw that going down the road of making it more DB-like had no place and didn't make sense after the enormity and immensity of the events that took place in DBZ. I must admit the least bad one, the Super 17 arc, was the one that should have had more screen time, and instead it had the least.Dbzfan94 wrote:I disagree completely there. SSJ4, Baby, and the Shadow Dragons are all incredible ideas in my eyes.MaGyunia wrote:DBSuper does have fantastic concepts, when GT lacks them completely.
The only thing is that the Shadow Dragons were excutely poorly. I will admit Omega Shenron's design is awesome though.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Nah it is true. People are afraid to compare Super to DB/Z and keep trying to validate it's existence by comparing it to GT. Comparing two overall disappointments does not validate either of them.MaGyunia wrote:But enough about GT already. Someone was pointing out we're always comparing DBSuper to GT and we never compare DBSuper to DB or DBZ, and that's just not true.
I've been seeing that, too. Not only their bodies; the faces, eyes, their anime designs look more "modern Toriyama" than usual. I think they are trying to adhere more to his style lately, in general.HeroR wrote:Although, this confirm to me that the reason Black Goku is skinner than Goku in the anime is because they're trying to mimic Toriyama's current style more, much like Future Trunks.
Really, "fake fans" is too much, but some people do seem to have a wrong memory or understanding of Dragon Ball and/or Toriyama.VegettoEX wrote:That's not particularly fair, either. A fan is a fan is a fan. People can like the same things for different reasons, and you can't take that away from them.Lujin_16 wrote:Man i hate those Dragonball Z fans who has never seen Dragonball and expecting that super must have all the time DbZ feeling and no comedy like Dragonball..In my opinion for me they are fake fans
who don't undesrtand Akira's history designs,Comedy etc
At the same time, I do 100% agree (and have stated in this very discussion) that too much is being examined in a vacuum without regard for the entire history of the franchise.
It's actually Super's detractors that like to bring up GT the most, though.dbzfan7 wrote:Nah it is true. People are afraid to compare Super to DB/Z and keep trying to validate it's existence by comparing it to GT. Comparing two overall disappointments does not validate either of them.
I dunno about that. Can't count the amount of GT is shit while comparing to Super. Not that I don't see the other way around too. I just see far more comparisons to GT overall than I do to DB/Z for some reason. Though really I consider them both disappointments with Super being the really bizarre case where even Toriyama is put off by it. So much so he had to be given the the basic plot structure of the current arc we were given. That's not a good thing.Araki wrote:It's actually Super's detractors that like to bring up GT the most, though.dbzfan7 wrote:Nah it is true. People are afraid to compare Super to DB/Z and keep trying to validate it's existence by comparing it to GT. Comparing two overall disappointments does not validate either of them.
And well, while your personal opinion is that both are disappointments, the fact is that one was a failure and the other is far from ending up like that, but i digress.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
I don't think it would be fair to Super or GT to say that. Both shows have their highs and lows but I think that you should be able to fairly criticise and compare them with DB/Z. This can show how they are different from DB/Z and how they could improve to be more like DB/Z.kinisking wrote:Imo, super isn't good enough to be compared to Z. Imo it's in the middle between GT and Z
kinisking wrote:Imo, super isn't good enough to be compared to Z. Imo it's in the middle between GT and Z
Trunks specifically said #19 and #20 were the ones to mess up his world so there's no mistaking they were always intended to be the main villains. I'm not saying Goku Black will be tossed out (we don't know either way), I'm saying we will probably see what is Toriyama's reasoning behind having the villain challenging the heroes so soon while keeping the arc long and apply the same logic to the original Artificial Humans arc.HeroR wrote:19 and 20 are not a good comparison. They were meant to be the primary villain before he changed them on the request of his former editor who hated them. Same with 17 and 18. Toriyama could get away with it too since Trunks didn't describe what the androids look like and as far as I'm concern, 19 and 20 weren't put in video games and shown as the primary villain.alakazam^ wrote:Goku Black reminds me of #19 and #20. Both arcs are different but I think it will be fun seeing what Toriyama comes up with by having the main (as far as we know) villain confronting the heroes so soon and maybe thinking he would have pulled the same stunt back then.
Black Goku, on the other hand, has a lot of build up both from show and outside. To have him toss out because it would be 'shocking', I don't see happening. Maybe Black Goku will turn out to be a the Dragon to the real boss, but I don't see it like 19 and 20.
nite_jay wrote:I don't think it would be fair to Super or GT to say that. Both shows have their highs and lows but I think that you should be able to fairly criticise and compare them with DB/Z. This can show how they are different from DB/Z and how they could improve to be more like DB/Z.kinisking wrote:Imo, super isn't good enough to be compared to Z. Imo it's in the middle between GT and Z
People wouldn't be complaining so much if that's how good it was or even half as good.GodKaio-Ken wrote:I think Super has been on par with the Cell Saga and better than Buu Saga.
48 episodes is enough to give a general idea about the show.Lujin_16 wrote:
Why you are judging super so early???
we are in the beginning of the trunks saga and it was a perfect start for a arc.
Good and bad is a subjective evaluation, and the amount of people who agree or disagree is irrelevant to the validity of those.sintzu wrote:People wouldn't be complaining so much if that's how good it was or even half as good.
sintzu wrote:People wouldn't be complaining so much if that's how good it was or even half as good.GodKaio-Ken wrote:I think Super has been on par with the Cell Saga and better than Buu Saga.
48 episodes is enough to give a general idea about the show.Lujin_16 wrote:
Why you are judging super so early???
we are in the beginning of the trunks saga and it was a perfect start for a arc.
Perfect is a bit much but I think it was good.
Why are you telling him this like it's a fact? It's his opinion. Besides, most people don't complain. Although I don't think most people think its as good as Z, the vast majority is enjoying it now.sintzu wrote:GodKaio-Ken wrote:I think Super has been on par with the Cell Saga and better than Buu Saga.People wouldn't be complaining so much if that's how good it was or even half as good.
I guess youre right. Z was the pinnacle of dragonball to me. I understand why people liked original dragonball a lot, and I do too but imo Z was better. Dragonball super's fights just aren't as intense, long or well animated. I think one of the problems is how light hearted it's been so far. I just want to see someone flip the fuck out and fight the enemy. Especially Goku, he's been nothing but smiles. Goku's stupid, Piccolo gotenks and Gohan are useless, eartlings are complete fodder. God ki could have been utilized so much better. It could have been used as a power up for EVERYONE. This way you could have a powerup for the saiyans that also applies to everyone else. The super saiyan transformations are worse imo. I know they were never that creative but yellow>blue. TLDR: Transformations, light heartedness, fights, character usage make Super worse than Z. Don't get me wrong, I love super but it's not on the same level as DBZ yet.I don't think it would be fair to Super or GT to say that. Both shows have their highs and lows but I think that you should be able to fairly criticise and compare them with DB/Z. This can show how they are different from DB/Z and how they could improve to be more like DB/Z.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
It's probably overlooked because people have seen the same fight in the film. But DBS did have an interesting alternate take of it.Lujin_16 wrote:I think the Beerus saga in super is really unterrated in my opinion mabye because of episode 5 but the fight Goku vs Beerus was great
MaGyunia wrote:Same here. I feel the introduction of Zen-ou-sama as absolutely unnecessary and I believe it was hastily thought of. Someone above Beerus, the Hakaishin, above Whis? Someone who can wipe out EVERYTHING, EVERYONE and ANYTHING in a flash, in all of 12 universes, including whatever and EVERYTHING and EVERYONE they possibly contain in all their dimensions? Including Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, Whis? And on top of that we get presented with a childish-looking thing? Not to mention the introduction with the new "type" of power that I always wished I didn't see in the Dragonball franchise and we see in many other animes, such as absolute power, reality, time and space manipulation, etc. I prefer the old-style method of measuring an individual's strength: by fighting them, getting your shit beat out of you, training to get stronger and stronger and then beating the shit out of them. This is what DBZ is partly about. This unnecessary introduction of this new character begs the question: how the hell is Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, etc., not to mention weaker characters who we previously loved, supposed to stand a chance at beating and overcoming Zen-ou-sama? They'll have to reach that new, unnecessary "type" of absolute power themselves, since the kind of power they have, although absolutely immense, is NOTHING to Zen-ou-sama as he can wipe them out instantly along with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else. There's no way around it, Zen-ou-sama's introduction to the series f****** me over pretty bad. I don't really give a sh** who eventually overcomes him, if anybody ever will, I could go for Goku, Vegeta, Black, Beerus, Whis, Puar, whatever. This is exactly the kind of power I didn't want ever to see in the franchise. Beerus and the other Hakaishin, the Beerus/Whis duo are (were, to be precise) already more than enough to mean and pose an objective or goal for Goku and Vegeta to attain in terms of power, and they were introduced just years ago. They did a really bad job with them after BoG, they mishandled Beerus and Whis as characters and made them far, FAR too "reachable" in terms of interaction, relationship and power. They go from the strongest entities there ever were in Dragonball to a duo that basically just eat and watch others fight, training Goku and Vegeta and making stupid jokes at each other. Great potential for seriousness and serious character development missed here. Their introduction was great, their handling post-BoG was absolutely catastrophic. After a few episodes we see Hakaishin Beerus already bowing to another entity, and if that wasn't enough, it looks like a five year old doll.Noah wrote:I don't give a f*** about Zeno, I still hate that the lord of all the existence looks like a f****** pokémon, it make this series even more childish than already is, he could have at least have an imposing design, I can only hope for Black or Zamasu owns his smug ass.
Yet another instance and example of how DBSuper contains fantastic concepts but also has HUGE shortcomings that came to be pretty much the same way GT's shortcomings did. It's only better than GT because, although having gradually become comparable when at first it wasn't, DBSuper does have fantastic concepts, when GT lacks them completely.
I agree with that too, look to his colors... Damn! It's awful, Toriyama could do so much better.Bullza wrote:I don't particularly mind that Zeno has a "childish" design, the problem I have is that it's just an horrific character design in general.
Toriyama does some fantastic character designs, he's one of the best when it comes to that but his Zeno design is beyond horrid. It's quite possibly the worst one or one of the worst ones he's done for this series.
