The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Oops, I misread the Zarbon part. I thought it said he was in his transformed state. In that case, A Kaioken x4 would probably be enough to blast away Zarbon as long as Goku isn't too beaten up from his previous Kaioken usage.

Monster Zarbon facing off against Kaioken x4 would actually end up being a stellar battle in my opinion. Then again, Zarbon's brutish fighting style probably wouldn't fare too well against Goku's strategically executed movements in the long haul.

Unless the Kaioken fizzles out early on, I'd say the odds are primarily in Goku's favor. But between Zarbon possessing a power level relatively close to Kaioken x4, and the strain-inducing effects of the technique itself, obtaining victory would in no shape or form be a walk in the park.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'd say the odds are overwhelmingly in Zarbon's favour. When Goku fought Vegeta, he was definitely feeling the after effects of the Kaioken x3 after a relatively short period of time, and even said that he'd be the first to fold unless he ended the fight quickly. And that was against someone who had a sufficiently inferior power level. If Goku tried to use an even higher multiplication just to match Monster Zarbon, he's not going to last at all, strategic movements or otherwise. In my opinion, Goku's only hope is to use a supercharged Kamehameha and hope that it'll be enough to take out Zarbon. That or find a way to stall and hit 'em with a Genki Dama.

[Analytic]

and Freeza > base Goku (much less Cell) is true even in the anime.

Unless you're excluding the Boo arc, Base Goku fought almost evenly with Ultimate Gohan in Evil Boo's body.

[supercat]

Oops, I misread the Zarbon part. I thought it said he was in his transformed state. In that case, A Kaioken x4 would probably be enough to blast away Zarbon as long as Goku isn't too beaten up from his previous Kaioken usage.

Monster Zarbon facing off against Kaioken x4 would actually end up being a stellar battle in my opinion. Then again, Zarbon's brutish fighting style probably wouldn't fare too well against Goku's strategically executed movements in the long haul.

Unless the Kaioken fizzles out early on, I'd say the odds are primarily in Goku's favor. But between Zarbon possessing a power level relatively close to Kaioken x4, and the strain-inducing effects of the technique itself, obtaining victory would in no shape or form be a walk in the park.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'd say the odds are overwhelmingly in Zarbon's favour. When Goku fought Vegeta, he was definitely feeling the after effects of the Kaioken x3 after a relatively short period of time, and even said that he'd be the first to fold unless he ended the fight quickly. And that was against someone who had a sufficiently inferior power level. If Goku tried to use an even higher multiplication just to match Monster Zarbon, he's not going to last at all, strategic movements or otherwise. In my opinion, Goku's only hope is to use a supercharged Kamehameha and hope that it'll be enough to take out Zarbon. That or find a way to stall and hit 'em with a Genki Dama.

Yeah it could go either way; power level-wise, I'd say the two are pretty much on par with one another, so it would really come down to the Kaioken's duration in conjunction with how much of a toll it takes on Goku during that particular battle. If the battle drags on, Zarbon would quickly gain the upper hand and win with minimal effort. On the contrary, if the Kaioken lasts an extended period of time, the winner would likely be the one possessing a greater degree of tactical prowess.

From an out-of-universe standpoint, Monster Zarbon would probably trump any form of Saiyan arc Goku; the former was able to effortlessly defeat a new and improved version of Vegeta whereas the latter barely won against a weaker incarnation of the Saiyan prince.

[RandomGuy96]

and Freeza > base Goku (much less Cell) is true even in the anime.

Unless you're excluding the Boo arc, Base Goku fought almost evenly with Ultimate Gohan in Evil Boo's body.

Then went SS2 and still got his ass whooped by both Super Buu and a highly suppressed Buuhan who couldn't possibly have been stronger than Super Buu at the highest, given the implied severity of his power-ups (he goes from "can't remotely harm base Vegetto even with dozens of clean punches", to "able to at least do that much to his previous self, but still weaker than base Vegetto", to "far superior to his previous self by enough that he thinks he's stronger than a guy who could counter his previous self's strongest attack totally effortlessly").

It's safe to say that his offhand statement about the illusions in Buu's head being as strong as the originals was BS. Especially since Cell > or = Dabra > base Goku (and probably SS Goku) is also explicitly the case in the anime version of that arc. Heck, so is base Goku ~ Yakon < base Goku x 5 < Dabra < or ~ Cell.

[In Brightest Day]

Man, Supercat and Randomguy96 preaching the gospel on Pikkon on the last page. Without his weighted clothing, Pikkon is sitting at full power Perfect Cell level at the very most, and his Burning Shoot technique pushes him probably to high SSJ2 tier. That's it.

People forget that SSJ Goku looked completely helpless when Cell charged him, and needed to be saved by Pikkon. Yet Goku actually gave Pikkon a decent fight during the tournament. There is nothing inconsistent about it at all.

[apex_pretador]

Base (manga) Vegito VS Buuhan

basically, I'm wondering if the anime filler where Vegito dominates Buuhan in base is actually conceivable.

Buuhan

Goku (Saiyan Saga) vs Cui - Finishes him as soon as he gets a chance, which he'll definitely get

Goku (Saiyan Saga) vs Dodoria - Dominates and finishes him off with KK x4 Kamehameha. Dodoria is just an idiot and a coward

Goku (Sayain Saga) vs Zarbon (no monster form) - Too strong

Goku can use the Kaioken up to x4

[Analytic]

It's safe to say that his offhand statement about the illusions in Buu's head being as strong as the originals was BS.

It's stated in the Daizenshuu as well.

As for the Base Vegetto vs. Gohan-Boo thing, Boo explicitly stated that he was going to go all-out at the beginning of the fight after a few punches were throw; he's also never stated to have increased his power, so I just think that he was always weaker than Vegetto and was just full of shit.

[supercat]

It's stated in the Daizenshuu as well.

As for the Base Vegetto vs. Gohan-Boo thing, Boo explicitly stated that he was going to go all-out at the beginning of the fight after a few punches were throw; he's also never stated to have increased his power, so I just think that he was always weaker than Vegetto and was just full of shit.

If we're exclusively discussing the anime continuity, it looked like Base Vegetto had the upper hand throughout the entire duration of their brief scuffle; in addition to deflecting a seemingly powerful attack that Buu was hyped up about, he took a barrage of attacks and made it out unscathed. Even if Buuhan had large reserves of suppressed power, the gap was probably so large that a handful of powerups likely wouldn't have been able to bridge it completely.

If Vegetto continued the fight without the usage of Super Saiyan, I suppose he may have found it a challenging battle overall, but I doubt he would have flat-out lost. It likely would have boiled down to a volley of attacks back and forth, with both fighters closely rivaling one another.

When I take into consideration how hyped both Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku were in the anime, that whole scene with SSJ Goku and Vegeta tangling with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks doesn't really surprise me.

What I gathered was that while Gohan was able to outclass SSJ Goku, Gotenks didn't fare nearly as well against Vegeta.

So something along the lines of this:

Ultimate Gohan > SSJ Goku > / = SSJ Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks

[RandomGuy96]

It's safe to say that his offhand statement about the illusions in Buu's head being as strong as the originals was BS.

It's stated in the Daizenshuu as well.

Then it's BS there too. As it would make Fat Buu and Super Buu far stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

As for the Base Vegetto vs. Gohan-Boo thing, Boo explicitly stated that he was going to go all-out at the beginning of the fight after a few punches were throw; he's also never stated to have increased his power, so I just think that he was always weaker than Vegetto and was just full of shit.

He quite clearly does power up, and Vegetto seemingly agrees with him by saying "why don't I show you then?" and transforming in response to him saying "you still haven't surpassed me". Later he gives SS Vegetto some trouble.

[MaxZ]

the power scaling if one is to assume base Vegito is about on par with Buuhan is absolutely nuts

a while ago I did a little math in my head and concluded that this would make Vegito as a SSJ3 as much as possibly 50,000x stronger than Goku as a SSJ3

[supercat]

the power scaling if one is to assume base Vegito is about on par with Buuhan is absolutely nuts

a while ago I did a little math in my head and concluded that this would make Vegito as a SSJ3 as much as possibly 50,000x stronger than Goku as a SSJ3

If we're talking about the anime continuity, Base Vegetto being on par with Buuhan doesn't automatically put SSJ3 Goku leagues below them. In said continuity, we were given multiple indications that Kid Buu was the strongest incarnation of Buu; which in-turn suggests that SSJ3 Goku was likely the top contender among his comrades (Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, and SSJ3 Gotenks).

Between the brief scuffle that took inside Buu, namely SSJ Goku / Vegeta tangling with Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo, and a number of verbal remarks regarding Kid Buu highly, I'd say it's pretty plausible that said Buu and SSJ3 Goku were both at least several calibers stronger than their manga counterparts if not worlds above them.

With Kid Buu as the strongest Buu, anime SSJ3 Goku probably isn't that much weaker than Base Vegetto, who during his short appearance had the upper hand on Buuhan. On top of all that, SSJ3 Goku was actually able to hold his own against Buutenks; granted, the former was able to dish out a lot more damage on Kid Buu. But I've always attributed the difference in performance to Buutenks having better durability from his absorptions, along with superior battle knowledge. Kid Buu had little to no sense when it came to fighting prowess and was therefore, blasted away time and time again. Heck, even Base Vegeta was able to blast him around a few times.

[MaxZ]

the power scaling if one is to assume base Vegito is about on par with Buuhan is absolutely nuts

a while ago I did a little math in my head and concluded that this would make Vegito as a SSJ3 as much as possibly 50,000x stronger than Goku as a SSJ3

If we're talking about the anime continuity, Base Vegetto being on par with Buuhan doesn't automatically put SSJ3 Goku leagues below them. In said continuity, we were given multiple indications that Kid Buu was the strongest incarnation of Buu; which in-turn suggests that SSJ3 Goku was likely the top contender among his comrades (Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, and SSJ3 Gotenks).

Between the brief scuffle that took inside Buu, namely SSJ Goku / Vegeta tangling with Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo, and a number of verbal remarks regarding Kid Buu highly, I'd say it's pretty plausible that said Buu and SSJ3 Goku were both at least several calibers stronger than their manga counterparts if not worlds above them.

With Kid Buu as the strongest Buu, anime SSJ3 Goku probably isn't that much weaker than Base Vegetto, who during his short appearance had the upper hand on Buuhan. On top of all that, SSJ3 Goku was actually able to hold his own against Buutenks; granted, the former was able to dish out a lot more damage on Kid Buu. But I've always attributed the difference in performance to Buutenks having better durability from his absorptions, along with superior battle knowledge. Kid Buu had little to no sense when it came to fighting prowess and was therefore, blasted away time and time again. Heck, even Base Vegeta was able to blast him around a few times.

Kid Buu is nowhere near as strong as any incarnation of Super Buu.

[supercat]

the power scaling if one is to assume base Vegito is about on par with Buuhan is absolutely nuts

a while ago I did a little math in my head and concluded that this would make Vegito as a SSJ3 as much as possibly 50,000x stronger than Goku as a SSJ3

If we're talking about the anime continuity, Base Vegetto being on par with Buuhan doesn't automatically put SSJ3 Goku leagues below them. In said continuity, we were given multiple indications that Kid Buu was the strongest incarnation of Buu; which in-turn suggests that SSJ3 Goku was likely the top contender among his comrades (Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta, and SSJ3 Gotenks).

Between the brief scuffle that took inside Buu, namely SSJ Goku / Vegeta tangling with Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo, and a number of verbal remarks regarding Kid Buu highly, I'd say it's pretty plausible that said Buu and SSJ3 Goku were both at least several calibers stronger than their manga counterparts if not worlds above them.

With Kid Buu as the strongest Buu, anime SSJ3 Goku probably isn't that much weaker than Base Vegetto, who during his short appearance had the upper hand on Buuhan. On top of all that, SSJ3 Goku was actually able to hold his own against Buutenks; granted, the former was able to dish out a lot more damage on Kid Buu. But I've always attributed the difference in performance to Buutenks having better durability from his absorptions, along with superior battle knowledge. Kid Buu had little to no sense when it came to fighting prowess and was therefore, blasted away time and time again. Heck, even Base Vegeta was able to blast him around a few times.

Kid Buu is nowhere near as strong as any incarnation of Super Buu.

Have you even watched the anime?

I thought I was pretty clear when I said, "if we're talking about the anime continuity."

If you haven't watched the anime, there's no point in us debating over this topic.

[MaxZ]

Have you even watched the anime?

I thought I was pretty clear when I said, "if we're talking about the anime continuity."

If you haven't watched the anime, there's no point in us debating over this topic.

Of course I have, many times in fact. I just finished another watch through of the series today even. It's super clear to me Kid Buu is much weaker. They were worried about Buff Buu for a moment, until his power level dropped again.

Goku had zero confidence that he could take on Super Buu and was totally desperate to fuse with someone, whereas he was quite confident he could defeat Kid Buu.

Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks are far far above SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks could have taken on Fat Buu as a SSJ1 before his training, and as a SSJ3? He was easily 10x stronger than Goku was as a SSJ3. And Gohan was even further beyond that, probably twice as strong as Gotenks given the power gap between him and Super Buu who was roughly on par with Gotenks, and given Gohan's performance against Buutenks.

Kid Buu is about on par with the original Fat Buu, though maybe a little stronger due to not having his energy suppressed by Dai Kaioshin's influence.

[supercat]

Have you even watched the anime?

I thought I was pretty clear when I said, "if we're talking about the anime continuity."

If you haven't watched the anime, there's no point in us debating over this topic.

Of course I have, many times in fact. I just finished another watch through of the series today even. It's super clear to me Kid Buu is much weaker. They were worried about Buff Buu for a moment, until his power level dropped again.

Goku had zero confidence that he could take on Super Buu and was totally desperate to fuse with someone, whereas he was quite confident he could defeat Kid Buu.

Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks are far far above SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks could have taken on Fat Buu as a SSJ1 before his training, and as a SSJ3? He was easily 10x stronger than Goku was as a SSJ3. And Gohan was even further beyond that, probably twice as strong as Gotenks given the power gap between him and Super Buu who was roughly on par with Gotenks, and given Gohan's performance against Buutenks.

Kid Buu is about on par with the original Fat Buu, though maybe a little stronger due to not having his energy suppressed by Dai Kaioshin's influence.

Yeah okay, so I guess the narration along with Goku himself straight up acknowledging Kid Buu as the strongest of Buus should just be ignored right?

[RandomGuy96]

Have you even watched the anime?

I thought I was pretty clear when I said, "if we're talking about the anime continuity."

If you haven't watched the anime, there's no point in us debating over this topic.

Of course I have, many times in fact. I just finished another watch through of the series today even. It's super clear to me Kid Buu is much weaker. They were worried about Buff Buu for a moment, until his power level dropped again.

Goku had zero confidence that he could take on Super Buu and was totally desperate to fuse with someone, whereas he was quite confident he could defeat Kid Buu.

Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks are far far above SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks could have taken on Fat Buu as a SSJ1 before his training, and as a SSJ3? He was easily 10x stronger than Goku was as a SSJ3. And Gohan was even further beyond that, probably twice as strong as Gotenks given the power gap between him and Super Buu who was roughly on par with Gotenks, and given Gohan's performance against Buutenks.

Kid Buu is about on par with the original Fat Buu, though maybe a little stronger due to not having his energy suppressed by Dai Kaioshin's influence.

Yeah okay, so I guess the narration along with Goku himself straight up acknowledging Kid Buu as the strongest of Buus should just be ignored right?

Considering that he says this while fighting Buu evenly as a SS2, a form explicitly inferior to even fatso? And that SS3 Goku had a slight advantage on Pure Buu, but even with a charged attack on an off-guard opponent, followed by dozens of generic attacks, couldn't even slightly annoy Buutenks?

Yes.

[supercat]

Considering that he says this while fighting Buu evenly as a SS2, a form explicitly inferior to even fatso? And that SS3 Goku had a slight advantage on Pure Buu, but even with a charged attack on an off-guard opponent, followed by dozens of generic attacks, couldn't even slightly annoy Buutenks?

Yes.

First and foremost, how Goku fared against Buutenks could be viewed subjectively.

The anime had plenty of instances where all kinds of sporadic power ups and/or beat downs took place; between Goku holding his own against Ultimate Gohan inside Buu, stating that this version of said fighter is on par with the original, and then fighting just as well as an SSJ2 against the same opponent he struggled against as an SSJ3, I have no reason to believe that Kid Buu wasn't the strongest.

It's up to you if you want to ignore direct statements along with the narration itself, but personally, I'm going with what was directly said versus hypothetical speculations.

[RandomGuy96]

Considering that he says this while fighting Buu evenly as a SS2, a form explicitly inferior to even fatso? And that SS3 Goku had a slight advantage on Pure Buu, but even with a charged attack on an off-guard opponent, followed by dozens of generic attacks, couldn't even slightly annoy Buutenks?

Yes.

First and foremost, how Goku fared against Buutenks could be viewed subjectively.

It really can't. He took Buutenks off guard and hit him with dozens of attacks. Buu laughed in response, then proceeded to kick the shit out of Goku effortlessly while clearly toying with him the entire time.

The anime had plenty of instances where all kinds of sporadic power ups and/or beat downs took place; between Goku holding his own against Ultimate Gohan inside Buu, stating that this version of said fighter is on par with the original, and then fighting just as well as an SSJ2 against the same opponent he struggled against as an SSJ3, I have no reason to believe that Kid Buu wasn't the strongest.

So essentially your logic is that none of the fights indicate anything about how strong anyone is. K.

It's up to you if you want to ignore direct statements along with the narration itself, but personally, I'm going with what was directly said versus hypothetical speculations.

It's not hypothetical speculations, it's "what actually happened + 10+ statement" vs "2 statements".

[supercat]

Considering that he says this while fighting Buu evenly as a SS2, a form explicitly inferior to even fatso? And that SS3 Goku had a slight advantage on Pure Buu, but even with a charged attack on an off-guard opponent, followed by dozens of generic attacks, couldn't even slightly annoy Buutenks?

Yes.

First and foremost, how Goku fared against Buutenks could be viewed subjectively.

It really can't. He took Buutenks off guard and hit him with dozens of attacks. Buu laughed in response, then proceeded to kick the shit out of Goku effortlessly while clearly toying with him the entire time.

The anime had plenty of instances where all kinds of sporadic power ups and/or beat downs took place; between Goku holding his own against Ultimate Gohan inside Buu, stating that this version of said fighter is on par with the original, and then fighting just as well as an SSJ2 against the same opponent he struggled against as an SSJ3, I have no reason to believe that Kid Buu wasn't the strongest.

So essentially your logic is that none of the fights indicate anything about how strong anyone is. K.

It's up to you if you want to ignore direct statements along with the narration itself, but personally, I'm going with what was directly said versus hypothetical speculations.

It's not hypothetical speculations, it's "what actually happened + 10+ statement" vs "2 statements".

-If you really want to leverage battle outcomes to determine and/or interpret one's strength, we could go with how well SSJ Goku and Vegeta held their own against Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks; while Goku was presumably on the losing end, Vegeta fared quite well in my opinion. Plus, the Buu arc itself had battles that made power scaling difficult. Base Vegeta and Krillin enduring Kid Buu's hits better than SSJ2 Vegeta, Base Vegetto knocking away Buuhan's attack like a mere beach ball while having the upper hand, and more. Oh, and let's not forget about the entire Other World Tournament arc in conjunction with Yamcha beating down Olibu. Filler? I guess, but still part of the anime nonetheless. Bottom line is, with the vague interpretations battle outcomes provided in the anime, direct statements seem like a more reasonable source to adhere to. But hey, that's just my opinion.

-And what 10 plus statements are you referring to? The only direct statements that I recall are both Goku and the narrator regradeding Kid Buu as the strongest of all Buus. I don't recall there being any such statements pertaining to Buuhan or any other form of Super Buu.

[DanielSSJ]

See, this is the reason why I ignore the anime's "extra details" when I wave my magic wand to spontaneously generate power levels, particularly in regards to the Boo arc. You end up with a bunch of conflicting information, not just with the source material, but within the anime itself. You have to pick and choose what to take into account and what to disregard, and nobody needs that nonsense.

Though it does seem to spark discussions, so maybe it's useful for something after all.