Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

It could be argued fair enough, but from Toriyama saying he has no intention of them surpassing Beerus soon, that'd throw a wrench in that. Goku also I don't think held back at all. He's never said to have held back. Hit only held back in the sense he can't use his killing techniques, which his moveset probably depends on more.

It only really seemed bad because Goku went to multiply the pressure 10 fold. Just a times 2 would allow Goku to beat Beerus if we go by the previous numbers Toriyama threw out. There's also the silliness of how Kaio-Ken works with SSJB as I don't buy it's a perfect ki control form when it strains so much, and it the actual perfect balance form somehow is incompatible.

That is fair enough. My only counter is what I said before:

It's possible that Goku had too much Ki in his body to control it. What I mean by that....even though Goku can sustain SSJ form he still had to learn to control a much larger amount of Ki in God form. Maybe the Kaio-Ken he used was too much for him to regulate. I mean think of how much power x10 is in God form. He had only recently even learned to control his God Ki.

I do think saying SSB alone drains a lot of stamina was really dumb.

I know, but that was just from 10x Kaioken. I don't think a x2 Kaio-Ken would nearly be as bad. With just a x2 or maybe 3, Beerus wouldn't be an issue. Though if you want you could throw away Toriyama's numbers as I doubt he has much attachment to them. However he still said if Goku and Vegeta teamed up, they could potentially beat Beerus. That to me I think solidifies that Goku and Vegeta aren't too far away from Beerus, but not enough to win by themselves. But with even a low level Kaio-Ken, it sounds more feasible.

I do think the manga's version of draining so much is dumb. However I welcome a weakness. A flawed form is more interesting than a form with no flaws. It's why the Kaio-Ken technique was cool. It was heavily flawed but also really needed. It would also explain why not using SSJ Blue all the time is a good idea. Hence the need for more base fights.

[GodKaio-Ken]

It could be argued fair enough, but from Toriyama saying he has no intention of them surpassing Beerus soon, that'd throw a wrench in that. Goku also I don't think held back at all. He's never said to have held back. Hit only held back in the sense he can't use his killing techniques, which his moveset probably depends on more.

It only really seemed bad because Goku went to multiply the pressure 10 fold. Just a times 2 would allow Goku to beat Beerus if we go by the previous numbers Toriyama threw out. There's also the silliness of how Kaio-Ken works with SSJB as I don't buy it's a perfect ki control form when it strains so much, and it the actual perfect balance form somehow is incompatible.

That is fair enough. My only counter is what I said before:

It's possible that Goku had too much Ki in his body to control it. What I mean by that....even though Goku can sustain SSJ form he still had to learn to control a much larger amount of Ki in God form. Maybe the Kaio-Ken he used was too much for him to regulate. I mean think of how much power x10 is in God form. He had only recently even learned to control his God Ki.

I do think saying SSB alone drains a lot of stamina was really dumb.

I know, but that was just from 10x Kaioken. I don't think a x2 Kaio-Ken would nearly be as bad. With just a x2 or maybe 3, Beerus wouldn't be an issue. Though if you want you could throw away Toriyama's numbers as I doubt he has much attachment to them. However he still said if Goku and Vegeta teamed up, they could potentially beat Beerus. That to me I think solidifies that Goku and Vegeta aren't too far away from Beerus, but not enough to win by themselves. But with even a low level Kaio-Ken, it sounds more feasible.

I do think the manga's version of draining so much is dumb. However I welcome a weakness. A flawed form is more interesting than a form with no flaws. It's why the Kaio-Ken technique was cool. It was heavily flawed but also really needed. It would also explain why not using SSJ Blue all the time is a good idea. Hence the need for more base fights.

Ah I get what you are saying now. I took it for something similar but slightly different.

I actually agree x10 was WAAAAY too much. I'd also have liked it at x2 or something...but I actually liked the fact that Goku fused the techniques so to speak. It reminded me of when he was a kid and would learn something new on the fly or come up with some crazy idea. It's been a long time since Goku actually used a new move that was worth something IMO and not a punch/kick.

[dbzfan7]

I know, but that was just from 10x Kaioken. I don't think a x2 Kaio-Ken would nearly be as bad. With just a x2 or maybe 3, Beerus wouldn't be an issue. Though if you want you could throw away Toriyama's numbers as I doubt he has much attachment to them. However he still said if Goku and Vegeta teamed up, they could potentially beat Beerus. That to me I think solidifies that Goku and Vegeta aren't too far away from Beerus, but not enough to win by themselves. But with even a low level Kaio-Ken, it sounds more feasible.

I do think the manga's version of draining so much is dumb. However I welcome a weakness. A flawed form is more interesting than a form with no flaws. It's why the Kaio-Ken technique was cool. It was heavily flawed but also really needed. It would also explain why not using SSJ Blue all the time is a good idea. Hence the need for more base fights.

Ah I get what you are saying now. I took it for something similar but slightly different.

I actually agree x10 was WAAAAY too much. I'd also have liked it at x2 or something...but I actually liked the fact that Goku fused the techniques so to speak. It reminded me of when he was a kid and would learn something new on the fly or come up with some crazy idea. It's been a long time since Goku actually used a new move that was worth something IMO and not a punch/kick.

It's basically got the same problem as the manga version. The Kaio-Ken x10 was way too much. The drain of SSJB in the manga is also too much. I side more with the manga as it's the more easier for me to buy, despite both being really questionable.

I do like the novelty of Kaio-Ken. I would have been still skeptic, but a times 2 or at most times 3 I guess may not have been so bad. I know of Toriyama's numbers, but even so, the guy I don't think is that attached to them, nor would probably be able to recite them. But I don't really know.

[ekrolo2]

An odd thing concerning Kaioken and the scaling Toriyama used for Battle of Gods: Why do people take it to mean that those numbers are literal battle powers? I mean, it just feels wrong to assume the anime version of events means, "Goku multiplied his battle power to around 60". This is especially the case when supposed numbers were stated to be hard to measure with machinery by Vegeta and assumed numbers wouldn't multiply so highly once we're in double digit figures, yet alone triple digit and above, just for a loose example.

There's a moment in the BoG movie where Beerus admits Goku made him use 70% of his power, taking into account Blue is supposed to be stronger than that AND with how Kaio-ken works... Yeah, Beerus should be a chump for Goku to beat with a mere double boost from KK.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Gah this makes me feel like the dumbest noob ever and I've watched every episode and movie...I just cant remember this.

Is it explicitly stated somewhere that a Kaio-Ken literally multiplies your abilities by that number? Is it possible its just amplifying the technique? The way I remember King Kai explaining it is that it greatly amplifies your power (same way Goku describes it).

Like I said...huge noob question from a non DB noob. I just cant pinpoint where it actually says the number is a multiplier. Or did Toriyama say it?

[dbzfan7]

Gah this makes me feel like the dumbest noob ever and I've watched every episode and movie...I just cant remember this.

Is it explicitly stated somewhere that a Kaio-Ken literally multiplies your abilities by that number? Is it possible its just amplifying the technique? The way I remember King Kai explaining it is that it greatly amplifies your power (same way Goku describes it).

Like I said...huge noob question from a non DB noob. I just cant pinpoint where it actually says the number is a multiplier. Or did Toriyama say it?

It's ok man. Conversations are more fun when we don't talk in absolutes, or try to discredit/destroy someone else's point. Hence why I think a more friendly discussion makes these kind of topics fun. The judgmental attitude in this thread really kills the enjoyment that can be had since some people are more interested in being right, then discussing the topic.

Here is the entry on Kaio-Ken

Kaio-Ken
First Appearance: Chapter 226
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)
Anime: The first movie it was used in was “The World’s Strongest Guy”, when it was shown during the battle with Dr. Uiro (Daizenshuu 6, p.52). In “Super Decisive Battle for the Earth”, Goku challenged Turles with Kaio-Ken x10 (Daizenshuu 6, p.60). In the movies after that, the “~x” number mark wasn’t used.

[ekrolo2]

Gah this makes me feel like the dumbest noob ever and I've watched every episode and movie...I just cant remember this.

Is it explicitly stated somewhere that a Kaio-Ken literally multiplies your abilities by that number? Is it possible its just amplifying the technique? The way I remember King Kai explaining it is that it greatly amplifies your power (same way Goku describes it).

Like I said...huge noob question from a non DB noob. I just cant pinpoint where it actually says the number is a multiplier. Or did Toriyama say it?

Its a literal multiplication. Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are the same thing: they double your power. X3 triples it, x4 quadruples and so forth. This is evidenced by the simple math of the Saiyan & Freeza sagas where Goku's power mathematically increases thanks to whatever multiplier he's using at a time.

If it wasn't for the movie explicitly saying Goku made Beerus use 70% of his power, you could just use the 6/10/15 thing as a tier system.

Say, to count as a 1 on the "God scale" you need a power level of 500 million, to count as a 2 you need a power level of 5 billion,.....

[TheMikado]

Well the numbers still work with the manga.

If anything the 10% line made sense and it's Goku going Kaioken that doesn't make sense. Whoever wrote the line about Vegeta using 10% was obviously working with what was said in the movie.

They seem to have completely forgot/ignored that though when it came to Kaioken. The manga made the more fitting choice I suppose even if it wasn't as interesting or exciting (and arguably shouldn't have included SSJG).

I do agree the manga handled it much more sensibly and logically.

[Bullza]

If you took out Goku using SSJG again I think it would have been pretty straight forward and would have fit much better.

That said straight forward is kinda boring for the final battle of the Tournament so I'm glad they included Kaioken but perhaps it's have been better had he just used Kaioken x2.

I don't know if it's going to screw it up now because they won't be using Kaioken again for a while and so the next villains are going to be intended to be stronger than Hit but they won't be in the anime because of that Kaioken scene.

[GodKaio-Ken]

If you took out Goku using SSJG again I think it would have been pretty straight forward and would have fit much better.

That said straight forward is kinda boring for the final battle of the Tournament so I'm glad they included Kaioken but perhaps it's have been better had he just used Kaioken x2.

I don't know if it's going to screw it up now because they won't be using Kaioken again for a while and so the next villains are going to be intended to be stronger than Hit but they won't be in the anime because of that Kaioken scene.

I kind of disagree...I mean that Kaio-Ken might kill him. Its not like he's going to pull it out every time. Also he may lose his Ki control forever....plus the form isn't sustainable. How F'd would it be for Goku to start with that early, lose the upgrade, his life ot powers and have noone left but Vegeta to really fight?

IMO Aside from the ridiculous x10 thing they set iy up well as to why he can't just do that every time.

[Bullza]

No I don't mean it like that. What I mean is in the anime and the manga both Goku and Hit were roughly equal.

Now say Toriyama intends for Black to be twice as strong as SSJB Goku and Vegeta (and Hit). Well that'd be fine in the manga but going by the anime Black might be twice as strong as SSJB Goku but he'd only be 1/5th as strong as Goku using Kaioken x10 and Hit.

So they'd be moving forwards with the villains in the manga but backwards in the anime.

It could lead to Toriyama intending for these villains to continue surpassing one another but the Kaioken x10 scene would make it so that Hit was still actually the strongest.

[GodKaio-Ken]

No I don't mean it like that. What I mean is in the anime and the manga both Goku and Hit were roughly equal.

Now say Toriyama intends for Black to be twice as strong as SSJB Goku and Vegeta (and Hit). Well that'd be fine in the manga but going by the anime Black might be twice as strong as SSJB Goku but he'd only be 1/5th as strong as Goku using Kaioken x10 and Hit.

So they'd be moving forwards with the villains in the manga but backwards in the anime.

It could lead to Toriyama intending for these villains to continue surpassing one another but the Kaioken x10 scene would make it so that Hit was still actually the strongest.

Gotcha. That makes sense and I can see it bothering some people. Why it doesn't bother me...I don't believe Hit was actually that strong without his time skip. Not to say he was weak...but I think he would have been outclassed by a lot had he not been able to use that. Much like the Spirit Bomb was an equalizer against more powerful opponents. What made Hit that powerful seemed to be the time skip...correct me if I'm wrong.

[HeroR]

Well the numbers still work with the manga.

If anything the 10% line made sense and it's Goku going Kaioken that doesn't make sense. Whoever wrote the line about Vegeta using 10% was obviously working with what was said in the movie.

They seem to have completely forgot/ignored that though when it came to Kaioken. The manga made the more fitting choice I suppose even if it wasn't as interesting or exciting (and arguably shouldn't have included SSJG).

The manga choice isn't that fitting since Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed godhood when asked if Goku was going to used further Super Saiyan forms like Super Saiyan 4. That means more to me than Goku randomly going Super Saiyan God again and making Beerus' energy ball disappear. Even in the manga version of the movie Resurrection 'F', we see Goku having the power of Super Saiyan God in his base when he was fighting Whis, and he beat up Freeza in his base form to everyone's shock. All evidence points to Goku's base form =< Super Saiyan God. So him going Super Saiyan God should have done nothing. The manga's version of events went against everything that has been said, stated, and implied by Toriyama and Resurrection 'F'.

That 70% line doesn't work anyway even if we discount the Kaio-Ken. If Super Saiyan God 60% of Beerus' full power and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger, Goku and Vegeta should be at least 80% of Beerus' full power and that is before they trained for three years. And Toriyama stated that he had no plans of letting Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus at the moment. Which mean, either Goku and Vegeta stopped growing at a certain point and can only get between 85 to 90% of Beerus' full power or Beerus is much stronger than that and the anime purposely left Beerus' power vague. That 10% line isn't even a big deal since Beerus obviously didn't need that amount of power since rage-fueld Vegeta didn't even hurt him.

[Noah]

It's sad that people actually thought the manga could fix the Kaioken thing, instead it make it worse... It could just have Goku figuring out Hit tecnique and doing better than Vegeta nothing else.

[LowRyder2005]

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.

This was said at the time of the movie, however.
Since Toriyama checks the manga storyboard for every single page and changes what he wants to change, it's perfectly reasonable to say that if that was his idea at the time he's, at least now, fine with the prospect of Super Saiyan God being superior to base and Super Saiyan. In that aspect, I don't really undestand what the big deal is.

And the anime - while of course not contradicting the "Goku doesn't need Super Saiyan God" - had already changed part of the movie events (Movie = Base Goku can still fight Beerus; Anime = Super Saiyan Goku does most of the fight, so either Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than SSG at that point, or Super Saiyan = SSG) and as far as we know he was fine with that as well.

To me, this kinda looks like the expectations that the 6-10-15 would be followed it ever-so strictly in the anime and so on.

But even if you want to follow it, it doesn't necessarily create particularly unresolvable contradictions: you could think that Goku improved his Super Saiyan God, and his Super Saiyan God (improved) is now stronger than his Super Saiyan God (BOG), which is weaker than his Super Saiyan (improved) and his Base (= SSG from BOG).
Like reported numerous times, the manga never mentioned the "he absorbed the God's power" excerpt, however, so it's safe to say that at least Toyotaro disregarded or didn't gave weight to that notion to begin with.

[Bullza]

The manga choice isn't that fitting since Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed godhood when asked if Goku was going to used further Super Saiyan forms like Super Saiyan 4.

Well that's all true and I said it myself earlier but that isn't as out of line as Kaioken x10. Like I said even after he absorbed the power he was still able to become SSJG again in the movie, Toriyama may have changed his mind which is why it was involved again or maybe he hasn't and it was just something Toyotaro included.

Even in the movie despite how small the boosts might be it didn't appear as though it went SSJG > SSJ > Base so it'd be the same really.

Which mean, either Goku and Vegeta stopped growing at a certain point and can only get between 85 to 90% of Beerus' full power or Beerus is much stronger than that and the anime purposely left Beerus' power vague.

Well Vegeta did say they weren't going to improve all that much which might have been his way of keeping Beerus above them rather than reconning Beerus' power to stay above them.

SSJB could be around 80-85% and I suppose we'll see if they're still below Beerus when another form is introduced.

That 10% line isn't even a big deal since Beerus obviously didn't need that amount of power since rage-fueld Vegeta didn't even hurt him.

People have made the 10% line a bit over complicated I think. It went in line with what was said in the movie, it was right at the time it was said. Since then Toriyama said he wants Beerus to stay stronger which might mean he's retconned his power.

The writer of the 10% line wouldn't have known that at the time. So rather than it being bad writing or not making sense, it'd just be outdated like the 70% line.

[HeroR]

The manga choice isn't that fitting since Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed godhood when asked if Goku was going to used further Super Saiyan forms like Super Saiyan 4.

Well that's all true and I said it myself earlier but that isn't as out of line as Kaioken x10. Like I said even after he absorbed the power he was still able to become SSJG again in the movie, Toriyama may have changed his mind which is why it was involved again or maybe he hasn't and it was just something Toyotaro included.

Even in the movie despite how small the boosts might be it didn't appear as though it went SSJG > SSJ > Base so it'd be the same really.

Which mean, either Goku and Vegeta stopped growing at a certain point and can only get between 85 to 90% of Beerus' full power or Beerus is much stronger than that and the anime purposely left Beerus' power vague.

Well Vegeta did say they weren't going to improve all that much which might have been his way of keeping Beerus above them rather than reconning Beerus' power to stay above them.

SSJB could be around 80-85% and I suppose we'll see if they're still below Beerus when another form is introduced.

That 10% line isn't even a big deal since Beerus obviously didn't need that amount of power since rage-fueld Vegeta didn't even hurt him.

People have made the 10% line a bit over complicated I think. It went in line with what was said in the movie, it was right at the time it was said. Since then Toriyama said he wants Beerus to stay stronger which might mean he's retconned his power.

The writer of the 10% line wouldn't have known that at the time. So rather than it being bad writing or not making sense, it'd just be outdated like the 70% line.

Unless Toriyama comes out and says he changed his mind about Super Saiyan God being unneeded, that is his official word on the matter, despite what Battle of God showed. Those words does not become void just because another manga writer, who Toriyama said he didn't mind having creative license on his work and was free to change things, went against it. Plus, everyone else also don't have post-Battle of Gods Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore outside of Xenoverse 1 and that was because the god power up thing wasn't explained in the movie. Also, given how the movie was writing, Goku going Super Saiyan God again at the end could have been an artifact of the original script, much like the Super Saiyan God legend itself. In the movie Toriyama wrote completely by himself, the only hints of Super Saiyan God is in Goku's base when he brags about not needing Super Saiyan God anymore and in the manga version of the movie, we see Super Saiyan God outlined in Goku's base, heavily implying that Super Saiyan God is within him, which is why he doesn't transform into that state.

The Kaio-Ken doesn't goes against anything Toriyama said, outside of maybe the 6/10/15 thing, and the anime actually explains why Goku can do it when he couldn't in the past and even as far back as Resurrection 'F', Whis was trying to teach Goku and Vegeta how to keep their ki in their bodies when they move. Toriyama also referred to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as a calm state, which is why he chose the color blue. So Toei's interpretation of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is closer to Toriyama, with the perfect ki control being Toei's thing, which seems inline with what Toriyama has done in the past with the mastered Super Saiyan.

I do agree with the 10% because Toriyama obviously what Beerus to remain the strongest and that wouldn't make much sense if Super Saiyan God Goku was already 60% of the way there. Them just getting a new form should have pushed it to at least 70%, not including training. In other words, they are still below Beerus, but Toriyama made it seemed the gap is larger than 20 or 30%, which isn't all that big.

This was said at the time of the movie, however.
Since Toriyama checks the manga storyboard for every single page and changes what he wants to change, it's perfectly reasonable to say that if that was his idea at the time he's, at least now, fine with the prospect of Super Saiyan God being superior to base and Super Saiyan. In that aspect, I don't really undestand what the big deal is.

And the anime - while of course not contradicting the "Goku doesn't need Super Saiyan God" - had already changed part of the movie events (Movie = Base Goku can still fight Beerus; Anime = Super Saiyan Goku does most of the fight, so either Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than SSG at that point, or Super Saiyan = SSG) and as far as we know he was fine with that as well.

To me, this kinda looks like the expectations that the 6-10-15 would be followed it ever-so strictly in the anime and so on.

But even if you want to follow it, it doesn't necessarily create particularly unresolvable contradictions: you could think that Goku improved his Super Saiyan God, and his Super Saiyan God (improved) is now stronger than his Super Saiyan God (BOG), which is weaker than his Super Saiyan (improved) and his Base (= SSG from BOG).
Like reported numerous times, the manga never mentioned the "he absorbed the God's power" excerpt, however, so it's safe to say that at least Toyotaro disregarded or didn't gave weight to that notion to begin with.

The anime didn't make up base form = Super Saiyan God, it was in the movie Resurrection 'F', the movie Toriyama wrote himself compared to him rewriting Battle of Gods. Goku bragged about not needing Super Saiyan to fight Freeza, which is perfectly inline with what Toriyama said about Goku only needing to improves his base form and Super Saiyan form for now on, with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being Super Saiyan merged with god ki. You also can't say it was Toriayama's idea to have Goku go Super Saiyan God just because he check the manga, since he also check the anime's script and even says he wants people to be creative with his property. So he wouldn't be all that strict with someone doing their own thing as long it stuck to his outline of events.

[Lujin_16]

Hands down Dragonball Z/GT has exaggerated with power levels and now in super the power levels has become so complicated..

[LowRyder2005]

You also can't say it was Toriayama's idea to have Goku go Super Saiyan God just because he check the manga, since he also check the anime's script and even says he wants people to be creative with his property. So he wouldn't be all that strict with someone doing their own thing as long it stuck to his outline of events.

I didn't, in fact. What I was pointing out - and what you're already indirectly proving through your reply - instead is that you can't realistically prove anything more than that at the time of the two movies Toriyama intended that Goku had no need to transform in Super Saiyan God anymore.
You were talking as if "base = Super Saiyan God" was a firmly established plot point in the anime as well. It arguably isn't "firmly established". We know only (for certain) that Goku and Vegeta in base are much stronger than everyone else, and that's it. "Stronger than everyone else" and "equal to Super Saiyan God" are not interchangeable.

Moreover between the movies creation and the current state of affairs there has been more than one reboot and retcon. I repeat: this is not a better argument than "Goku SSB + KK can't be stronger than Beerus because Toriyama had said x months ago that he didn't think Goku would surpass Beerus and Whis" (which came around before the plot revelead that Champa thought he still could've defeated Hit).

The implication that Toriyama can't change his mind, quoting stuff he said months or even years ago, is not exactly the best argument. Like I said, as far as we know he could be fine with Super Saiyan God being stronger than the base Saiyans in any continuity created after the movies (mind you, given the gap between Super Saiyan Blue, the Base Form and the 6-10-15 comparison there'd be actually enough evidence to open a debate for the movies as well, but let's leave it aside).

[ekrolo2]

Why's the concept of the God power requiring various different transformations to fully access not crossed anyones mind?

For the anime:

Base (1% access to God power), Super Saiyan (50% access), Super Saiyan Blue (100% access), Super Saiyan Blue KK (going past your limits)

For the manga:

Base (1% access to God power), Super Saiyan (50% access), Super Saiyan God (100% access), Super Saiyan Blue (going past your limits)