DB Super Stigma

[GodKaio-Ken]

The Champa was obviously was meant to lead into the Trunks arc.

Toriyama wasn't even sure he'd continue due to Super's quality so the staff gave him the idea (or ideas) about the Trunks arc.

What was in the Champa arc that's making you say this ?

Toriyama has never been sure about anything. I take that with a huge grain of salt when he says it. He wanted to end DB after issue 10...then again later...then again later...then again later...then threatened to do it if he couldn't make Goku an adult. It's just a pattern with him "Oh I love DB but Oh I hate making it" and the whole "Do it in a way that satisfies ME" thing. Which IMO he has EVERY right to do. I'm just saying I never actually believe him when he says stuff like that It's like when an athlete holds out for a new contract...99% of the time they end up playing regardless.


I say that because the arc had TONS of small hints about the future while resolving nothing itself other than setting up how the universe really works while still being vague enough and hinting at future revelations.

[JulieYBM]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

Well I watch stories for...the stories personally. That is why I like Super...even though it has some holes it still TRIES to have a legitimate story line. Especially compared to American Cartoons which are just God-Awful these days.

I also think Super would get more respect if people compared it to the other cartoon shows on Television now rather than DBZ or DB from the past. I doubt anyone would even let a show that violent (which it wasnt even THAT violent which says a lot) on TV today minus Adult Swim/Toonami/Whatevs else like that there is.

[JulieYBM]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

Well I watch stories for...the stories personally. That is why I like Super...even though it has some holes it still TRIES to have a legitimate story line.

Television series aren't stories, though. They're the manner in which a story is told. If the story were all that mattered your time would be better spent just reading a summary of the story. Not to single this post out, but I think it's a perfect example of what I am talking about.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

Well I watch stories for...the stories personally. That is why I like Super...even though it has some holes it still TRIES to have a legitimate story line.

Television series aren't stories, though. They're the manner in which a story is told. If the story were all that mattered your time would be better spent just reading a summary of the story. Not to single this post out, but I think it's a perfect example of what I am talking about.

I dunno...while I would certainly agree that there's not enough focus on other aspects of shows (and this is coming from a guy who still finds the story to be the main appeal to just about anything I watch, play, or read), I dunno that I'd go so far as to say that time would be better spent reading a summary. I can read descriptions of stuff all day long, but I still won't really feel like I've truly experienced it until I see it for myself. I read descriptions of DBZ episodes and movies that I wouldn't see for nearly a decade after reading about them, and it still wasn't the same as actually witnessing it with my own eyes. The same still held true with Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' - I read the super long, spoiler-filled descriptions we had on the site here, but it wasn't until I actually saw the films that I felt like I truly knew them.

But that's all a slight personal nitpick about that particular phrasing though, not really too important in the grand scale of things or the subject of the thread I admit.

On topic, I'd like to think that maybe it would have alleviated some of the issues people have had, but I don't think it would have. Not without more preparation time before the series started. That and, people were still finding things to criticize - especially about 'story' and 'character' concerns - with the original movie versions of the two most recent films. Nothing is ever going to please everyone 100% of the time anyway, but especially assuming the Champa arc would still be there following off of where Resurrection 'F' ended, it would likely still carry over a lot of other stuff that people haven't cared for.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

Well I watch stories for...the stories personally. That is why I like Super...even though it has some holes it still TRIES to have a legitimate story line.

Television series aren't stories, though. They're the manner in which a story is told. If the story were all that mattered your time would be better spent just reading a summary of the story. Not to single this post out, but I think it's a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Okay would you prefer me to say I watch them to see a story unfold? I've never been a fan of great CGI or graphics or visuals in movies or TV. I could watch stick figure DB if the story was the same.

Also I do read summaries of stories, listen to youtube videos, ect because what I like is to delve into the world. Of course its silly when Vegeta has two left hands in episode 5 lmao but it didnt kill the series for me.

I know you arent trying to single me out but I hope I explained that better?

[JulieYBM]

I dunno...while I would certainly agree that there's not enough focus on other aspects of shows (and this is coming from a guy who still finds the story to be the main appeal to just about anything I watch, play, or read), I dunno that I'd go so far as to say that time would be better spent reading a summary. I can read descriptions of stuff all day long, but I still won't really feel like I've truly experienced it until I see it for myself. I read descriptions of DBZ episodes and movies that I wouldn't see for nearly a decade after reading about them, and it still wasn't the same as actually witnessing it with my own eyes. The same still held true with Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' - I read the super long, spoiler-filled descriptions we had on the site here, but it wasn't until I actually saw the films that I felt like I truly knew them.

But that's all a slight personal nitpick about that particular phrasing though, not really too important in the grand scale of things or the subject of the thread I admit.

On topic, I'd like to think that maybe it would have alleviated some of the issues people have had, but I don't think it would have. Not without more preparation time before the series started. That and, people were still finding things to criticize - especially about 'story' and 'character' concerns - with the original movie versions of the two most recent films. Nothing is ever going to please everyone 100% of the time anyway, but especially assuming the Champa arc would still be there following off of where Resurrection 'F' ended, it would likely still carry over a lot of other stuff that people haven't cared for.

The story itself is not what you're enjoying. The manner in which that story is expressed--at every millisecond and with every detail--is what you're grasping onto. That is television or film.

Continuing on from earlier: the retellings' existence is not a problem. In fact, including them was a crucial decision that tightened the overall series narrative. "Go watch these two movies to understand the backstory of this series" would have made the narrative of the series even choppier than it already is. At least now, built off as a sequel to Dragon Ball Kai, Dragon Ball Super as a weekly television series has a sense of continuity to it. The quality of that narrative flow and the decisions made during those retellings are hardly high, but that's something of a different topic.

Okay would you prefer me to say I watch them to see a story unfold? I've never been a fan of great CGI or graphics or visuals in movies or TV. I could watch stick figure DB if the story was the same.

Also I do read summaries of stories, listen to youtube videos, ect because what I like is to delve into the world. Of course its silly when Vegeta has two left hands in episode 5 lmao but it didnt kill the series for me.

I know you arent trying to single me out but I hope I explained that better?

How does a story unfold in television? Hundreds of little things. Dialogue, acting, use or lack of music, sound effects, a drawing, the use of the camera, a single line on the screen, color. You would watch Dragon Ball if it was merely stick figures? So the only proper way to express an idea in a visual medium is through non-visual manners, is that what you're saying? Go print out a copy of the script and read it to yourself. That'd take you less than the twenty minutes it would to sit through an episode of Dragon Ball.

Again, I'm not intentionally singling you out: you're just a convenient example of a problem I see amongst those discussing arts. Although, I suppose the implication that you aren't even an individual in this context is in of itself pretty insulting.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I dunno...while I would certainly agree that there's not enough focus on other aspects of shows (and this is coming from a guy who still finds the story to be the main appeal to just about anything I watch, play, or read), I dunno that I'd go so far as to say that time would be better spent reading a summary. I can read descriptions of stuff all day long, but I still won't really feel like I've truly experienced it until I see it for myself. I read descriptions of DBZ episodes and movies that I wouldn't see for nearly a decade after reading about them, and it still wasn't the same as actually witnessing it with my own eyes. The same still held true with Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' - I read the super long, spoiler-filled descriptions we had on the site here, but it wasn't until I actually saw the films that I felt like I truly knew them.

But that's all a slight personal nitpick about that particular phrasing though, not really too important in the grand scale of things or the subject of the thread I admit.

On topic, I'd like to think that maybe it would have alleviated some of the issues people have had, but I don't think it would have. Not without more preparation time before the series started. That and, people were still finding things to criticize - especially about 'story' and 'character' concerns - with the original movie versions of the two most recent films. Nothing is ever going to please everyone 100% of the time anyway, but especially assuming the Champa arc would still be there following off of where Resurrection 'F' ended, it would likely still carry over a lot of other stuff that people haven't cared for.

The story itself is not what you're enjoying. The manner in which that story is expressed--at every millisecond and with every detail--is what you're grasping onto. That is television or film.

Continuing on from earlier: the retellings' existence is not a problem. In fact, including them was a crucial decision that tightened the overall series narrative. "Go watch these two movies to understand the backstory of this series" would have made the narrative of the series even choppier than it already is. At least now, built off as a sequel to Dragon Ball Kai, Dragon Ball Super as a weekly television series has a sense of continuity to it. The quality of that narrative flow and the decisions made during those retellings are hardly high, but that's something of a different topic.

Okay would you prefer me to say I watch them to see a story unfold? I've never been a fan of great CGI or graphics or visuals in movies or TV. I could watch stick figure DB if the story was the same.

Also I do read summaries of stories, listen to youtube videos, ect because what I like is to delve into the world. Of course its silly when Vegeta has two left hands in episode 5 lmao but it didnt kill the series for me.

I know you arent trying to single me out but I hope I explained that better?

How does a story unfold in television? Hundreds of little things. Dialogue, acting, use or lack of music, sound effects, a drawing, the use of the camera, a single line on the screen, color. You would watch Dragon Ball if it was merely stick figures? So the only proper way to express an idea in a visual medium is through non-visual manners, is that what you're saying? Go print out a copy of the script and read it to yourself. That'd take you less than the twenty minutes it would to sit through an episode of Dragon Ball.

Again, I'm not intentionally singling you out: you're just a convenient example of a problem I see amongst those discussing arts. Although, I suppose the implication that you aren't even an individual in this context is in of itself pretty insulting.

I think I'm wording it wrong. I will try and rephrase...bare with me here

I'm not saying I don't like when those things are done well. I meant to imply they mean a lot -less- to me than the story. If it was simply about production value we would all like a ton of things we don't. Maybe I can give a decent example...

I have a hard time watching a cartoon like Steven Universe that has an almost half-hearted story. It basically falls in some weird cloudy space between having a strong plot and being completely random at times (to me). While it's not amazing I do think some of the art in the show is creative in terms of using shapes and using both elegant and almost ugly looking (intentionally) characters. However the fact that I cant buy into the story leaves me emotionally detached from some of the good artwork and voice acting.

I'm not saying I -want- DB to be stick figures I'm saying I'd rather it be that than some show like Ben Ten.

I know you arent trying to single me out, be a jerk, or anything like that so we are totally cool. I respect your opinion. We all have a bunch of stuff we probably don't agree on. We all just like DB for one reason or another.

[Gyt Kaliba]

The story itself is not what you're enjoying. The manner in which that story is expressed--at every millisecond and with every detail--is what you're grasping onto. That is television or film.

To a degree, yes, but at the same time, not entirely. Personally I'd say that's something that depends greatly on each individual viewer.

Sure, I take notice of bad animation, good animation, neat camera tricks (or animation meant to emulate the same feeling), etc., but it's only rarely. It either has to just strike me just right, or I have to be in the right mind to notice it and call it out. Most of the time though, I'm just watching something to enjoy the entire package itself, which, at least for me, seems to come from the story.

Again, don't get me wrong - I am in no way speaking out against production stuff, or the people who follow it. More people need to follow it, because without that stuff, there would be no story, no show, in the first place. It's also super helpful for fans like myself, who have only a passing interest - but an interest none-the-less - in such things, to have people who do have that passion around to ask about stuff when we need to know something. But there are some, I'd venture, who like myself just sit back and absorb it as a whole, taking in and theorizing the story as it unfolds.

I'd really cop it up to a personal viewpoint in the end. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there is, or used to be, a listing of where a majority of one's posts on this forum were. I can't say for sure about it now, but at one point in time it said most of mine were in the 'In Universe' section. That just goes to show, at least to me, that that's the kind of thing where a bulk of my concern goes usually, not how it was all put together.

[Cipher]

Continuing on from earlier: the retellings' existence is not a problem. In fact, including them was a crucial decision that tightened the overall series narrative. "Go watch these two movies to understand the backstory of this series" would have made the narrative of the series even choppier than it already is. At least now, built off as a sequel to Dragon Ball Kai, Dragon Ball Super as a weekly television series has a sense of continuity to it. The quality of that narrative flow and the decisions made during those retellings are hardly high, but that's something of a different topic.

They absolutely did not need to adapt the movies. There are certainly justifications for doing so, but it wouldn't have been the first series in the world to have continued on from movie events. It's a sequel either way.

As far as offering a smooth continuation from Kai for a TV audience, let us never forget that so little effort was put into offering a stand-alone replacement for the movies that we never got an in-series explanation for the Pilaf gang's youth. That's insane.

It really does seem the TV adaptations existed solely to buy time for the plotting of additional arcs.

[ekrolo2]

The movie retellings, while pointless, at least would've managed to avoid a lot of the new age "animation specialists" complaining if TOEI just held off on the show for a while. Like say, have it start airing when Resurrection F was starting to hit DVD and Blu-Ray (October of 2015 I think it was) and then launch the show back when DBZ is back in peoples minds. That way the crew working on it could've gotten a few more months of time on production before airing anything.

[Faisal Shourov]

There might be some bad rep but nothing as close to as it is now. Episode 5 has completely destroyed Super's reputation. Nobody can call it a good anime unless they're inexperience with other anime. Running alongside One Punch Man (one of the greatest animated anime) drew unnecessary comparison which also damaged its rep badly.

I think people would be much more positive about Super if it started with episode 28, the RoF arc was atrocious.

[sintzu]

Toei decided to produce it due to RF's success which was only 3 months before Kai's ending and Toei didn't want to lose its time slot so they rushed it into production.

Toei should've aired a Kai version of the original DB after the Buu arc cause that would've given them 2 years to work on it before airing it.

Let us never forget that so little effort was put into offering a stand-alone replacement for the movies that we never got an in-series explanation for the Pilaf gang's youth. That's insane.

They also got rid of the part about Goku and Vegeta's pride.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't know about everyone else, but it sure as hell wouldn't have changed my perception. I have been let down by modern DBZ since 2008. It just so happens now I can label most of this stuff as "Super-related" and feel better about it.

The Champa arc wasn't good at all. That's not to say it didn't have any highlights though. The Vegeta vs Magetta and Goku vs Hit battles were pretty good.

[dbs fanboy]

Yes (i think), as from what i see in the internet, a lot of people loved the Champa arc (a lot of people hated it as well), and some of them were people that hated the first two arcs and that were sh***** on super, but that changed their minds after the Champa arc. So Super would probably receive hate, but it would be less hate than before, it could be like the hate that Kai received (but justified mostly)

[dbs fanboy]

Oh, the series would definitely be more popular had it started on 28, as the Champa arc was appreciated enough. RoF in particular was a very divisive movie already, to say the least, so having it adapted again and shortly after the film didn't help at all. And Goku vs Freeza was easily the worst fight of the series.
Not to mention the tv version of episode 5 made everyone an animation specialist.

I wouldn't discard the first 27 episodes though, as we did have things that were done better than in the movies, let alone those great episodes with entirely new content, like 2 and 16-18. When i recommend Super to a casual fan, it's really tough to come up with a mix between those first two arcs and the movies, as i have to find a way to include the best episodes.

Hah! When i do that, i tell them to watch the BoG arc but skip the ep 5 unless they have the "fixed version" (not good but not horrible at least), then i tell them to watch until ep 18 and skip RoF, or watch eps 19-21, then skip the next episodes, (by watching the movie version) and then watch ep 27, basically watch the best from super and the movie (like Ajay's cut, which i can't watch for whatever reason).

[dbs fanboy]

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone thinks the retellings are anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to the things wrong with Dragon Ball Super, but I suppose that just goes to show how little respect there is for creating television outside of dialogue and 'story'.

Well I watch stories for...the stories personally. That is why I like Super...even though it has some holes it still TRIES to have a legitimate story line. Especially compared to American Cartoons which are just God-Awful these days.

But, i loved the boondocks

[Faisal Shourov]

Yes (i think), as from what i see in the internet, a lot of people loved the Champa arc (a lot of people hated it as well), and some of them were people that hated the first two arcs and that were sh***** on super, but that changed their minds after the Champa arc. So Super would probably receive hate, but it would be less hate than before, it could be like the hate that Kai received (but justified mostly)

Actually Kai is quite liked by the elitist who love the lack of filler and superior voice acting. I don't like Kai myself because no Bruce Faulkner music but I can understand why people like Kai. Apart from the music, even I might consider Kai a superior product objectively (thought I don't because DBZ nostalgia)

Anyway, Super gets a lot more hate than Kai, and the criticism are very bitter and accurate to be honest. People dislike kai because music and nostalgia which are not big factors. But Super has plenty of bad points, the RoF arc was the lowest point in the franchise and episode 5 will be used as example for bad art in future

[GodKaio-Ken]

There might be some bad rep but nothing as close to as it is now. Episode 5 has completely destroyed Super's reputation. Nobody can call it a good anime unless they're inexperience with other anime. Running alongside One Punch Man (one of the greatest animated anime) drew unnecessary comparison which also damaged its rep badly.

I think people would be much more positive about Super if it started with episode 28, the RoF arc was atrocious.

That is really unfair. It was one episode done by a dude who hasn't worked on an ep since. Episode 48 animations were awesome so why judge by one horrid episode. Ever had a bad day at work? What if your boss only judged you on that and none of the good...

[Faisal Shourov]

That is really unfair. It was one episode done by a dude who hasn't worked on an ep since. Episode 48 animations were awesome so why judge by one horrid episode. Ever had a bad day at work? What if your boss only judged you on that and none of the good...

Why judge by one horrid episode you say? Three reasons below why it's getting bashed

1) This is 2016, not 90s. No excuse for art and animation. Nobody accepts excuse

2) We have other anime with great animation like One Punch Man. Comparison hurts

3) We have internet now, unlike 90s. Critics are vocal, and they're right

We loved DBZ because it was new to us, we were kids and there was no criticism without internet. Super doesn't have those privileges and is compared to other anime (whether they're small or big in episodes). You might bring excuses about Super being a long show and strict schedule, but that doesn't matter a bit to viewers. Fact is, ep 5 and RoF did huge damage that might be impossible to fix unless Trunks Arc is extremely good. Too many good anime available nowadays to give Super a free pass, even if it's Dragon Ball.