"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

Well, I'd say it's pretty obvious that Xenoverse doesn't ignore them because of the "demand" that it has to cover other works (such as GT and movies). If we let Dimps work alone without having to use the fan-service, it would incorporate more of Dragon Ball Online and Dragon Ball anime/manga stuff.

[dbzfan7]

Fair enough. But I don't take it as him deciding on canon and what not. I don't think he himself wants to try and dive into all the lore and background of the series. The manga is enough as is. I don't think he goes out of his way to discredit or tell people what they can and can't include. I think that's merely a fan rule. I'm curious to see those dodges though as he himself knows he contradicts himself, and says it's ok since he's the author.

We won't see him coming out saying "GT is not canon, but Super is", but it's obvious that at this moment, in his own stories, GT is ignored & Super is not. But other stories, such as XenoVerse, don't ignore any of them. So, we don't have a true canon for this franchise, either through a direct statement or implication, but we can see through implication that Toriyama has a personal canon in his mind.

Well yeah, why would Super be ignored? He's doing it currently?

I think we can infer that, but not basically push it as the true canon or whatever. I don't mind people having interpretations of canon or whatever, I just don't like those who get in each others faces about it. I don't really believe in a true canon, til they outright make a Disney like statement. Somethings make more sense than others, but I think if they really were adamant about what is and isn't canon, they'd come out and say it. By not doing that, I think it just doesn't concern them as much as it concerns other people. They seem to follow some patterns, but that's what we as fans are interpreting. I don't think it's a good enough substitution for official statements, but it's an interesting topic to say the least. Or at least interesting til it sets the thread a blaze.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well yeah, why would Super be ignored? He's doing it currently?

It's not gonna be ignored anytime soon, but who knows what will happen in 20 years? Maybe Toei will create a new series that ignores both Super & GT.

I think we can infer that, but not basically push it as the true canon or whatever.

Of course. The day we'll have a true canon will be the day that someone will announce it, which will most likely never happen. But it's obvious that Super has its own unofficial canon, GT has its own unofficial canon, the video-games have their own unofficial canon.

[dbzfan7]

Well yeah, why would Super be ignored? He's doing it currently?

It's not gonna be ignored anytime soon, but who knows what will happen in 20 years? Maybe Toei will create a new series that ignores both Super & GT.

I think we can infer that, but not basically push it as the true canon or whatever.

Of course. The day we'll have a true canon will be the day that someone will announce it, which will most likely never happen. But it's obvious that Super has its own unofficial canon, GT has its own unofficial canon, the video-games have their own unofficial canon.

Good point. I wouldn't be that surprised honestly. Though first we gotta see how long Super lasts.

Kudos to being the only person in recent memory who doesn't ruin the discussion of canon.

[ryou766]

Well yeah, why would Super be ignored? He's doing it currently?

It's not gonna be ignored anytime soon, but who knows what will happen in 20 years? Maybe Toei will create a new series that ignores both Super & GT.

Once DBS is over with, we can't ever say "there will never be a new series" again.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 13-

Once again, I choose the anime. It's like the manga can't keep up with anymore.

Even though it's my favourite form, the SSG part here was a mess.
Goku never said he could still use it, and the plot made it look like it was a one time only form.

The problem is that we now have two completely different versions and both SSG and SSB+Kaioken are two major things, which one was Toriyama idea?
I feel this SSG scene unnecessary. Just like Future Trunks blue hair, the only point I see to it is to create unnecessary confusion.

If the form never appears in the anime again, just like Minus I will assume this never happened.

[Pannaliciour]

Manga:

-Hit can increase his power not his abillity.
-If Hit weaker then opponent his Time stop doesn't work well
-Vegeta lost to Hit because of Stamina issue.

Anime
-Hit can increase power and his abillity
-doesn't explain beeing stronger or weaker than Hit effects time stop BUT > Goku said time stop (0.5 sec) doesn't work in this state> ssjbkk.

-Vegeta lost to Hit because he didn't no about the hint.

Conclusion: manga explains better BUT anime performs better.

Btw if time stop isn't that effective to stronger opponent than Hit, then it contradicts Jaco's statement: stops time for everybody except himself. Whis, Beerus,Champa and Vados shouldn't be frozen at all during the time stop.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Manga:

-Hit can increase his power not his abillity.
-If Hit < than opponent his Time stop doesn't work well
-Vegeta lost to Hit because of Stamina issue.

Anime
-Hit can increase power and his abillity
- If opponent is stronger than Hit than Time stop doesn't work at all ( Goku said time stop doesn't work in this state ssjbkk)
-Vegeta lost to Hit because he didn't no about the hint.

Conclusion: manga explains better BUT anime.performs better.

Btw if time stop isn't that effective to stronger opponent than Hit, then it contradics Jaco's statement: stops time for everybody except himself. Whis, Beerus,Champa and Vados shouldn't be frozen at all during the time stop.

Huh I don't get #1 and #2 in the anime can you clarify? I'm not saying I'm right but maybe you can clear up this for me:

#1 Hit even says he can't transform/power up I believe. He says all he can do is grow his technique because Goku pushed his limits. He does do an Aura blast but that was just him growing his Time Stop or as someone else said in the anime...forget who..."Looking the part".

#2 I assumed personally it was due to the speed Goku was moving. He said something along the lines of "I'm beyond your time stop..." I personally took that to mean Goku was moving at such a speed that he basically "broke the barrier" not that it was because he was stronger.

[Pannaliciour]

Manga:

-Hit can increase his power not his abillity.
-If Hit < than opponent his Time stop doesn't work well
-Vegeta lost to Hit because of Stamina issue.

Anime
-Hit can increase power and his abillity
- If opponent is stronger than Hit than Time stop doesn't work at all ( Goku said time stop doesn't work in this state ssjbkk)
-Vegeta lost to Hit because he didn't no about the hint.

Conclusion: manga explains better BUT anime.performs better.

Btw if time stop isn't that effective to stronger opponent than Hit, then it contradics Jaco's statement: stops time for everybody except himself. Whis, Beerus,Champa and Vados shouldn't be frozen at all during the time stop.

Huh I don't get #1 and #2 in the anime can you clarify? I'm not saying I'm right but maybe you can clear up this for me:

#1 Hit even says he can't transform/power up I believe. He says all he can do is grow his technique because Goku pushed his limits. He does do an Aura blast but that was just him growing his Time Stop or as someone else said in the anime...forget who..."Looking the part".

#2 I assumed personally it was due to the speed Goku was moving. He said something along the lines of "I'm beyond your time stop..." I personally took that to mean Goku was moving at such a speed that he basically "broke the barrier" not that it was because he was stronger.

Sure no problem:

episode 39 Herms:

1 : Goku pushes Hit to "grow" (成長/seichou), meaning (in this context) to improve himself and his technique, which he claims to have never needed to do in his 1000 years of existence.

2 Context: Hit attempts to use his time-skip.

　20:28 | Goku: "It's no use. I've already moved far beyond your time-skip."

Significance: Goku's 10x SSB Kaiō-ken allows him to be "far ahead" (はるか先) of Hit's 0.5 second timeskip.

I think this has nothing to do with speed because Hit could freeze Goku in epsiode 40 (when Hit again powers up)

But then again its hard to make a conclusion either speed or technique. I think the anime is trying to say if opponent >>> Hit then time stop.doens't work. Thats why Hit frooze Goku during time stop in epsiode 40 because Hit improved his power overall again to Hit=Goku ssjbkk.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Manga:

-Hit can increase his power not his abillity.
-If Hit < than opponent his Time stop doesn't work well
-Vegeta lost to Hit because of Stamina issue.

Anime
-Hit can increase power and his abillity
- If opponent is stronger than Hit than Time stop doesn't work at all ( Goku said time stop doesn't work in this state ssjbkk)
-Vegeta lost to Hit because he didn't no about the hint.

Conclusion: manga explains better BUT anime.performs better.

Btw if time stop isn't that effective to stronger opponent than Hit, then it contradics Jaco's statement: stops time for everybody except himself. Whis, Beerus,Champa and Vados shouldn't be frozen at all during the time stop.

Huh I don't get #1 and #2 in the anime can you clarify? I'm not saying I'm right but maybe you can clear up this for me:

#1 Hit even says he can't transform/power up I believe. He says all he can do is grow his technique because Goku pushed his limits. He does do an Aura blast but that was just him growing his Time Stop or as someone else said in the anime...forget who..."Looking the part".

#2 I assumed personally it was due to the speed Goku was moving. He said something along the lines of "I'm beyond your time stop..." I personally took that to mean Goku was moving at such a speed that he basically "broke the barrier" not that it was because he was stronger.

Sure no problem:

episode 39 Herms:

1 : Goku pushes Hit to "grow" (成長/seichou), meaning (in this context) to improve himself and his technique, which he claims to have never needed to do in his 1000 years of existence.

2 Context: Hit attempts to use his time-skip.

　20:28 | Goku: "It's no use. I've already moved far beyond your time-skip."

Significance: Goku's 10x SSB Kaiō-ken allows him to be "far ahead" (はるか先) of Hit's 0.5 second timeskip.

I think this has nothing to do with speed because Hit could freeze Goku in epsiode 40 (when Hit again powers up)

I think #1 is a good explanation. It seemed more to me like he was referring to the technique and not himself but I obviously need to go back and rewatch that scene now. It's probably as you say it is and I just missed a few lines that didnt stick with me.

#2 I think people could go back forth with forever. I could reply that because the time skip was extended the speed in which to "break" the barrier increased. That is me using half science though which DB doesnt really do so you're probably right. I was thinking along the lines of how light works, things moving at/near the speed of light experience time differently. So in essence I was thinking he moved so fast that the 0.1 second skip was like nothing to him but the next upgrade was too much.

[Pannaliciour]

Yeah that second is a pain in tha ass. I don't get it. It seems in the anime that Hit has trouble hitting Goku in those 0.1 sec time stop (beginning of episode 39) the Anime explains it that Goku predicts Hits movement. But if time is frozen you can predict all you want but your opponent will hit you no matter what. Even in Dragon ball they move faster than Hit.

Thats why manga explains it better IMO. Hit loses controll of time stop the moment a opponent is getting to strong. Thats why Hit no way in hell can beat Beerus or Champa. Something the anime let you think otherwise.

[alakazam^]

The Dragon Ball Super manga is most likely selling well, so I don't see it ending anytime soon. Toriyama isn't a full-fledged manga artist anymore and probably doesn't care about "No, this is how it really happened, this is canon" It's very possible for him to say stuff in interviews, and contradict himself months or years after. He probably forget's what he says the day after he does an interview. Not only that but you have editor's from Toei editing his script that might change something completely contradictory to what he said in the past and he's obviously okay with it.

He, Toei, or even Toyotaro could potentially have Goten go SSJ4 without any explanation what-so-ever and we'd just have to deal with it. I think people really need to stop trying to make a canon or make sense of everything, Dragon Ball is slowly becoming like Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon, I've preached it since Super's announcement that there will be plenty of spin-offs, retellings, games, figures that didn't appear in any material, anything that will sell. Examples: DB Heroes, DB Fusions, three different retellings of the same source material etc. Whatever sells it's going to be milked to hell and back.

Toriyama's getting older, he isn't like Oda or Kishimoto anymore to where there are boundary's that the author simply won't allow. It's not that he doesn't respect his creation, but he has a different view of it in his older age, something us fan's basically worship, he's forgotten about like his characters. He's had plenty of time to separate himself from something he probably wouldn't let anyone tinker with during it's serial. The money he makes certainly isn't going to make him look any different at it; if it's making money, why change it?

I think we simply need to accept what fan-bases like Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokemon have, and accept it's not the original serial 20 years ago that's a labor of love more than it's for the money. Dragon Ball Super's entire purpose is to make money and sell merchandise to children, not tell masterpieces of a story like it used to be. If a person can't accept that, he or she can always look back at the original material that made them like it in the first place and ignore the new.

You keep talking about the purpose of Super being to make money and sell merchandise and I don't really understand why you stress it so much since that was the purpose of DBZGT as well. I don't know if you like Super or not but it does seems you're trying to rationalize stuff so you feel better about it?

Of course Super is a business but you're just downplaying Toriyama and Toei's roles.

Toriyama starting drawing manga to make money and Dragon Ball was just one of those examples. He was even pressured into continuing it longer than he wanted so you can't say he wrote Dragon Ball out of love and now he just doesn't care because it brings money. Based on his interviews we know this isn't so. For starters, he's already rich and never stopped working so he's not desperate for Super's money. Then, if he didn't care, he wouldn't complain about Evolution and Super nor would he be involved in the movies and such.

It's still the same work as it has always been but you are right: Toriyama is older now and this affects the way he sees the world or thinks about things. Maybe in his 20s he liked having limbs torn off or guts flying around but he might not like that stuff now. What we know of him is that he was always a laidback guy, who liked stupid gags, simple stuff and defying expectations. He's not above accepting editors and ex-editors' suggestions and he doesn't mind having the input of new artists and people at Toei. It's true he forgets stuff but he's not senile, he still remembers several anecdotes from back in the day and he says he re-reads the manga when needed to freshen his memory up or think of new plot points. He most likely doesn't remember trivial stuff like aura shapes and whatnot but he must have a general idea of the whole story, it's just that he knows that Toyotarou (and maybe Toei) knows the story better than him so he doesn't stress over that stuff and just let them be a bit creative. I have the feeling this is why this fight got so different because he probably writes a somewhat detailed script of the points he absolutely wants to happen but then he leaves the rest to Toei and Toyotarou since it's their job to make it visually appealing (for the movies he said he trusted the animators with the battles because animation in itself could do what he can't by drawing manga).

Heroes and Fusions and future games can get away with new characters, forms and such because that's their thing, just like the old games were (remember Kuririen?).

I don't follow Yu-gi-oh but saying Pokemon is just a money machine with no love is plain wrong. Hell, if none of those franchises and the people involved had no amount of love I'd doubt they'd still be alive today.

[Araki]

The Dragon Ball Super manga is most likely selling well, so I don't see it ending anytime soon.

It sold 30k copies in the first week (which would be very modest sales for a regular manga), and then vanished from rankings.
But that's not bad when we accept it's not a manga most people would think to collect, its main purpose is being in the V-Jump magazine while promoting the anime. It looks bad compared to other manga but i bet Shueisha is very satisfied with those sales and the job it's doing.

Not only that but you have editor's from Toei editing his script that might change something completely contradictory to what he said in the past and he's obviously okay with it.

Funny you say Toei when that's exactly what Toyotarou did in this chapter.

Dragon Ball Super's entire purpose is to make money and sell merchandise to children, not tell masterpieces of a story like it used to be. If a person can't accept that, he or she can always look back at the original material that made them like it in the first place and ignore the new.

Come on, you can't seriously believe that.
Toriyama started drawing manga to make money and Toei made DB, Z and GT to make money and sell merchandise to children. Nothing changed on that front.
Only thing that changed is that i don't think Toriyama is after money (which i doubt he's in need, anyway). If he was, he wouldn't stop the manga at its peak. He obviously came back to the franchise because he cares about it. But alakazam^ elaborated on all that before me already.

[Xeztin]

The Dragon Ball Super manga is most likely selling well, so I don't see it ending anytime soon. Toriyama isn't a full-fledged manga artist anymore and probably doesn't care about "No, this is how it really happened, this is canon" It's very possible for him to say stuff in interviews, and contradict himself months or years after. He probably forget's what he says the day after he does an interview. Not only that but you have editor's from Toei editing his script that might change something completely contradictory to what he said in the past and he's obviously okay with it.

He, Toei, or even Toyotaro could potentially have Goten go SSJ4 without any explanation what-so-ever and we'd just have to deal with it. I think people really need to stop trying to make a canon or make sense of everything, Dragon Ball is slowly becoming like Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon, I've preached it since Super's announcement that there will be plenty of spin-offs, retellings, games, figures that didn't appear in any material, anything that will sell. Examples: DB Heroes, DB Fusions, three different retellings of the same source material etc. Whatever sells it's going to be milked to hell and back.

Toriyama's getting older, he isn't like Oda or Kishimoto anymore to where there are boundary's that the author simply won't allow. It's not that he doesn't respect his creation, but he has a different view of it in his older age, something us fan's basically worship, he's forgotten about like his characters. He's had plenty of time to separate himself from something he probably wouldn't let anyone tinker with during it's serial. The money he makes certainly isn't going to make him look any different at it; if it's making money, why change it?

I think we simply need to accept what fan-bases like Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokemon have, and accept it's not the original serial 20 years ago that's a labor of love more than it's for the money. Dragon Ball Super's entire purpose is to make money and sell merchandise to children, not tell masterpieces of a story like it used to be. If a person can't accept that, he or she can always look back at the original material that made them like it in the first place and ignore the new.

You keep talking about the purpose of Super being to make money and sell merchandise and I don't really understand why you stress it so much since that was the purpose of DBZGT as well. I don't know if you like Super or not but it does seems you're trying to rationalize stuff so you feel better about it?

Of course Super is a business but you're just downplaying Toriyama and Toei's roles.

Toriyama starting drawing manga to make money and Dragon Ball was just one of those examples. He was even pressured into continuing it longer than he wanted so you can't say he wrote Dragon Ball out of love and now he just doesn't care because it brings money. Based on his interviews we know this isn't so. For starters, he's already rich and never stopped working so he's not desperate for Super's money. Then, if he didn't care, he wouldn't complain about Evolution and Super nor would he be involved in the movies and such.

It's still the same work as it has always been but you are right: Toriyama is older now and this affects the way he sees the world or thinks about things. Maybe in his 20s he liked having limbs torn off or guts flying around but he might not like that stuff now. What we know of him is that he was always a laidback guy, who liked stupid gags, simple stuff and defying expectations. He's not above accepting editors and ex-editors' suggestions and he doesn't mind having the input of new artists and people at Toei. It's true he forgets stuff but he's not senile, he still remembers several anecdotes from back in the day and he says he re-reads the manga when needed to freshen his memory up or think of new plot points. He most likely doesn't remember trivial stuff like aura shapes and whatnot but he must have a general idea of the whole story, it's just that he knows that Toyotarou (and maybe Toei) knows the story better than him so he doesn't stress over that stuff and just let them be a bit creative. I have the feeling this is why this fight got so different because he probably writes a somewhat detailed script of the points he absolutely wants to happen but then he leaves the rest to Toei and Toyotarou since it's their job to make it visually appealing (for the movies he said he trusted the animators with the battles because animation in itself could do what he can't by drawing manga).

Heroes and Fusions and future games can get away with new characters, forms and such because that's their thing, just like the old games were (remember Kuririen?).

I don't follow Yu-gi-oh but saying Pokemon is just a money machine with no love is plain wrong. Hell, if none of those franchises and the people involved had no amount of love I'd doubt they'd still be alive today.

I love Super, actually I enjoy all Dragon Ball material to be honest! That entire post I made was about a big canon debate that broke out a few pages back about people trying to claim Super, Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro are all (Insert offensive language here) just because they didn't like certain aspects of the franchise (Like the SSG in the manga) I was trying to get across to them that it's not just Toriyama and his editor anymore and that he changes his mind on a dime. I do believe he had some fondness of Dragon Ball in the beginning or he would have continued with a different story, but of course it turned into a nightmare for him. To sum it up I was trying to convince the others that this isn't Oda or Kishimoto with a "continuity" thing, that Toriyama isn't like that, if he was in the past he isn't in his age today and we need to accept that.

It's his story and if he wants to implant random things he can. You've got to agree the countless tv show's of Pokemon by now are for making money more than it is an author trying to tell his story. (Death Note) for example. Actually Let's take Togashi for example, the guy would rather die then to have anyone draw his manga, because it's his pride and baby, but after he finishes it, 20 years later if someone comes up to him with a cash full of money and asks if they could animate a sequel, he'd have plenty of time to separate himself from his "baby" by then and he's more than likely to be open to it. It wouldn't be he didn't care about his work, but he's had time to separate himself from it and of course money talks. It's the same with Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh! and the rest. I wasn't really trying to rationalize anything for myself, I don't believe in that "this happened, that didn't so it's crap" stuff. I have no problem if anyone does, but trying to fit everything from the original manga, into Z, into Kai, into the Super manga, into GT and then bad mouthing the people involved including Toriyama is just plain ridiculous.

It's obvious everything's not going to line up like that in this world "where everything really happened". I also was trying to say that the DB franchise is more than likely headed towards the Yu-Gi-Oh! route with endless material from now on, or what everyone else refers to as "milking". It really doesn't bother me at all, but other's seemingly aren't ready or don't want that to happen and I understand that.

Also we've seen over the year's Toryiama has a short fuse when it comes to being milked for material, I believe it was stated the Future Trunks arc was a Toei suggestion and it's good that he's getting help with the story. Though, it just goes to show how many people have a part in it probably some we don't even know about, which is bound to cause contradictions to what Toriyama has said in the past about certain things. Like him saying SSG would never appear again, and yet it did. Even so I don't see that as an excuse to call it crap or badmouth just because certain things do not line up in story.

[Xeztin]

The Dragon Ball Super manga is most likely selling well, so I don't see it ending anytime soon.

It sold 30k copies in the first week (which would be very modest sales for a regular manga), and then vanished from rankings.
But that's not bad when we accept it's not a manga most people would think to collect, its main purpose is being in the V-Jump magazine while promoting the anime. It looks bad compared to other manga but i bet Shueisha is very satisfied with those sales and the job it's doing.

Not only that but you have editor's from Toei editing his script that might change something completely contradictory to what he said in the past and he's obviously okay with it.

Funny you say Toei when that's exactly what Toyotarou did in this chapter.

Dragon Ball Super's entire purpose is to make money and sell merchandise to children, not tell masterpieces of a story like it used to be. If a person can't accept that, he or she can always look back at the original material that made them like it in the first place and ignore the new.

Come on, you can't seriously believe that.
Toriyama started drawing manga to make money and Toei made DB, Z and GT to make money and sell merchandise to children. Nothing changed on that front.
Only thing that changed is that i don't think Toriyama is after money (which i doubt he's in need, anyway). If he was, he wouldn't stop the manga at its peak. He obviously came back to the franchise because he cares about it. But alakazam^ elaborated on all that before me already.

I believe if you don't care about your story, no one else well which obviously isn't the case with Dragon Ball. He may have got burnt out at the end but can you blame him? of course he wanted money everyone does but he had to care about his story if he had any inspiration from anything which he did from the Journey to the West novel. It's not Toriyama that's exactly after the money, it's Toei putting Goku in every outfit with every transformation like we seen in the fillers to get more figures out of it. Though, if you had a franchise like Dragon Ball that you haven't touched in 20 years, and you are offered boat loads of cash just to do scripts here and there, would you pass it up? Especially if you are the type that doesn't really care about the canon thing like Toriyama. Actually I think Lord Beerus has a signature quote of him saying something along the lines of "I try to forget the old stuff to implant the new" to back that up I suppose.

Edit - Sorry for the DP.

[dbgtFO]

While I prefer the manga's take in regards to not even implying that SSG is part of their base forms now, I vastly prefer the over-the-top SSB Kaio-ken x10 scene in the anime, even if I find it non-sensical. I just love its epicness and the feelings it brought forth along with Chozetsu Dynamic being played in the background!

[White Oni]

In the animation it's implied that base goku/vegeta are nearly as strong as BoG SsjG Goku, if not stronger.

We have this confirmed in several places, one being slime base vegeta completely stomping ssj3 gotenks.


What I want to know is, is there anything indicating they're this strong in base, in the manga? Because that's an enormous divergence, if not, and in light of SsjG form still being a thing, it seems like that may be the case.

[ekrolo2]

In the animation it's implied that base goku/vegeta are nearly as strong as BoG SsjG Goku, if not stronger.

We have this confirmed in several places, one being slime base vegeta completely stomping ssj3 gotenks.


What I want to know is, is there anything indicating they're this strong in base, in the manga? Because that's an enormous divergence, if not, and in light of SsjG form still being a thing, it seems like that may be the case.

Besides Goku having a silhouette of God appear behind him in the F manga there's nothing that says these guys are anywhere close to SSG power in base or in Super Saiyan. Goku only fights Beerus in SSG in the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the animation it's implied that base goku/vegeta are nearly as strong as BoG SsjG Goku, if not stronger.

We have this confirmed in several places, one being slime base vegeta completely stomping ssj3 gotenks.


What I want to know is, is there anything indicating they're this strong in base, in the manga? Because that's an enormous divergence, if not, and in light of SsjG form still being a thing, it seems like that may be the case.

Besides Goku having a silhouette of God appear behind him in the F manga there's nothing that says these guys are anywhere close to SSG power in base or in Super Saiyan. Goku only fights Beerus in SSG in the manga.

The FnF manga is a separate thing from the Super manga.

[ekrolo2]

In the animation it's implied that base goku/vegeta are nearly as strong as BoG SsjG Goku, if not stronger.

We have this confirmed in several places, one being slime base vegeta completely stomping ssj3 gotenks.


What I want to know is, is there anything indicating they're this strong in base, in the manga? Because that's an enormous divergence, if not, and in light of SsjG form still being a thing, it seems like that may be the case.

Besides Goku having a silhouette of God appear behind him in the F manga there's nothing that says these guys are anywhere close to SSG power in base or in Super Saiyan. Goku only fights Beerus in SSG in the manga.

The FnF manga is a separate thing from the Super manga.

Its also the closest thing we've got to Toyotaro doing F.