Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Hands down Dragonball Z/GT has exaggerated with power levels and now in super the power levels has become so complicated..

The only thing that really makes it so complicated is not knowing exactly how strong Base Goku is supposed to be and then how Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue relate to each other.

If Base is as strong as SSJG then is Super Saiyan still 50x as strong? That doesn't seem right to me for many reasons, how did he get 50x stronger in such a small period of time? Why is a noob SSJ Cabba roughly 50x stronger than a SSJG? Why was he able to stop Beerus' blast in base if he was struggling in SSJ? Wouldn't this make SSJG less than 2% as strong as Beerus?

SSJ being equal to SSJG and Base being 1/50th would make more sense.

How much stronger is SSJB supposed to be than SSJ? Or SSJG? If it's the Super Saiyan form of one who is as strong as SSJG then wouldn't SSJB be 50x stronger than SSJG or Base?

[LightBing]

Hands down Dragonball Z/GT has exaggerated with power levels and now in super the power levels has become so complicated..

The only thing that really makes it so complicated is not knowing exactly how strong Base Goku is supposed to be and then how Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue relate to each other.

If Base is as strong as SSJG then is Super Saiyan still 50x as strong? That doesn't seem right to me for many reasons, how did he get 50x stronger in such a small period of time? Why is a noob SSJ Cabba roughly 50x stronger than a SSJG? Why was he able to stop Beerus' blast in base if he was struggling in SSJ? Wouldn't this make SSJG less than 2% as strong as Beerus?

SSJ being equal to SSJG and Base being 1/50th would make more sense.

How much stronger is SSJB supposed to be than SSJ? Or SSJG? If it's the Super Saiyan form of one who is as strong as SSJG then wouldn't SSJB be 50x stronger than SSJG or Base?

Guess, that's what we had to do since the Android arc. Nobody knew how strong the Base Saiyans, neither how SSJ worked besides being better than Kaioken. Until some guides tried to guess for us. Even by following the guides, most of it was still a work of deducing what the story told us.

In the manga, they already told us enough to paint a picture. That 10% SSJB Vegeta, show us how much stronger Blue is. Piccolo being somewhat comparable to the Base Saiyans tell us they stand at around SSJ(Cell Games) level.

In the anime, we have to assume an incredible amount of information for it to make sense. Like that Goku absorbing the God power, was temporarily and many other things.

[Bullza]

Well in the Battle of Gods movie even though Goku absorbed the power and all that there was still a clear visual implication that it went SSJG > SSJ > Base even though the difference couldn't be that big.

In the manga they also have it as SSJG > SSJ > Base and maybe there's the same gap between forms as in the movie. After all Goku in his Base form was able to wobble Hit who was able to withstand Super Saiyan God Goku's attacks and that was before he powered up. You'd think if Base Goku could make Hit bleed then one hit from SSJG Goku would outright knock his head off his shoulders.

And perhaps it is also true for the anime even though SSJG didn't reappear so even in the anime it would still go SSJG > SSJ > Base with only smallish gaps in between again like the movie and the manga.

[apex_pretador]

IN RESPONSE TO LAST FEW PAGES:
Manga & Anime have essentially the same power scaling, with very minor changes.

[LightBing]

Well in the Battle of Gods movie even though Goku absorbed the power and all that there was still a clear visual implication that it went SSJG > SSJ > Base even though the difference couldn't be that big.

In the manga they also have it as SSJG > SSJ > Base and maybe there's the same gap between forms as in the movie. After all Goku in his Base form was able to wobble Hit who was able to withstand Super Saiyan God Goku's attacks and that was before he powered up. You'd think if Base Goku could make Hit bleed then one hit from SSJG Goku would outright knock his head off his shoulders.

And perhaps it is also true for the anime even though SSJG didn't reappear so even in the anime it would still go SSJG > SSJ > Base with only smallish gaps in between again like the movie and the manga.

Yes in the movie all three states are very close from what I recall.

In manga, we have to assume that Hit was restraining himself as not to immediately kill Goku. Supposedly 10% Blue is stronger than SSJ, so that's the only way for it to work. The gap between SSJ and SSJG should be significant. All points towards a decent gap, at the very least, between Base and SSJ and between SSJ and Blue. SSJG is a gray area, only thing we know for sure is it's superiority in regards to 10% Blue.

In the anime, honestly it doesn't matter because like you said the form only appeared in the BoG arc.

I don't feel like discussing the movies, because well their continuity is over. Altought it might be interesting to see what it was the intention then. The anime has so many bloody hiccups and contradictions which make it a hair-ripping exercise to make sense of it.
The manga, now that's a medium which tries to be consistent within itself.

IN RESPONSE TO LAST FEW PAGES:
Manga & Anime have essentially the same power scaling, with very minor changes.

Depending on what you mean by "minor changes", I disagree. Base Saiyans in the anime, implied to be above SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Saiyans in the manga, implied to be weaker than SSJ2.
That's pretty significant right there, plus there's more.

[Bullza]

Depending on what you mean by "minor changes", I disagree. Base Saiyans in the anime, implied to be above SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Saiyans in the manga, implied to be weaker than SSJ2.

I'm not so sure about that because if the manga was following the same continuity as the Resurrection F movie which is the only real assumption that should be made then the Base Saiyans should be a lot stronger than that.

Likewise if the movie worked with the manga then Base Goku in that movie should not be as strong as SSJG but not that far off just like in Battle of Gods.

Which if that then worked with the anime it'd make sense why he was so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So I'd like to think to think their base forms are equal across all three versions which shouldn't be that farfetched being they're all based on the same thing.

[LightBing]

Depending on what you mean by "minor changes", I disagree. Base Saiyans in the anime, implied to be above SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Saiyans in the manga, implied to be weaker than SSJ2.

I'm not so sure about that because if the manga was following the same continuity as the Resurrection F movie which is the only real assumption that should be made then the Base Saiyans should be a lot stronger than that.

Likewise if the movie worked with the manga then Base Goku in that movie should not be as strong as SSJG but not that far off just like in Battle of Gods.

Which if that then worked with the anime it'd make sense why he was so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So I'd like to think to think their base forms are equal across all three versions which shouldn't be that farfetched being they're all based on the same thing.

It isn't following the same continuity as the FnF movie, at least I didn't see anything saying it did. The fact the BoG in the manga is different from the movie, already points towards a different path. The FnF arc didn't appear in the manga. We know that Vegeta and Goku somehow, defeated Freeza after obtaining Blue from training with Whis. That's all the info we got.
Since Piccolo appears close to the Base Saiyans in the tournament and he isn't mention as obtaining any power up. Adding the way Goku talks, Mr.Boo took precedence over Namekian. The only conclusion is that Piccolo is the same as before, or stronger to a insignificant point.

Mixing the different versions is wrong, each stands on it's own. We can only take conclusions from within.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga they also have it as SSJG > SSJ > Base and maybe there's the same gap between forms as in the movie.

It's not. In the manga, 1/10th SSB is stronger than SS & weaker than SSG. So, there is a huge difference between SS & SSG in the manga, while in the movies the difference between base, SS, and SSG is very small, to the point that there is no reason to use SS or SSG anymore.

[Bullza]

It'd have to follow the continuity of the movie because it's the only version of that story (at the time anyway) that readers are familiar with. And the writer is going to know that people have that story in mind as what happened between those two arcs so it would make no sense for him to write the Universe 6 arc as a follow up to a completely different version of the Frieza story that nobody knows about.

The Battle of Gods arc was somewhat different from the movie but it was very similar to the anime. So at the very least the manga version of the Universe 6 arc should follow the anime version of the F arc.

It really doesn't make any sense for both the movies and the anime to portray their base forms as being so powerful but then the manga would be completely different altogether when they're based on the exact same thing. It was also portrayed that way in the F manga written by the same person so I don't see why it should be any different and there's nothing concrete to prove that it's not different.

In the anime aswell Goku said Buu before Piccolo and nobody commented on Piccolo being any stronger during the Tournament. Pretty much the same exact dialogue was used for when he was about to fight Frost.

It's not. In the manga, 1/10th SSB is stronger than SS & weaker than SSG. There is a huge difference between SS & SSG in the manga, while in the movies the difference between base, SS, and SSG is very small, to the point that there is no reason to use SS or SSG anymore.

Well to my knowledge the chapter hasn't been scanlated yet so I can only go by the images but that could still fit. It could still go SSJG > SSJ > Base just with 1/10th SSJB being somewhere in between SSJG and SSJB.

[LightBing]

It'd have to follow the continuity of the movie because it's the only version of that story (at the time anyway) that readers are familiar with. And the writer is going to know that people have that story in mind as what happened between those two arcs so it would make no sense for him to write the Universe 6 arc as a follow up to a completely different version of the Frieza story that nobody knows about.

The Battle of Gods arc was somewhat different from the movie but it was very similar to the anime. So at the very least the manga version of the Universe 6 arc should follow the anime version of the F arc.

It really doesn't make any sense for both the movies and the anime to portray their base forms as being so powerful but then the manga would be completely different altogether when they're based on the exact same thing. It was also portrayed that way in the F manga written by the same person so I don't see why it should be any different and there's nothing concrete to prove that it's not different.

In the anime aswell Goku said Buu before Piccolo and nobody commented on Piccolo being any stronger during the Tournament. Pretty much the same exact dialogue was used for when he was about to fight Frost.

It's not. In the manga, 1/10th SSB is stronger than SS & weaker than SSG. There is a huge difference between SS & SSG in the manga, while in the movies the difference between base, SS, and SSG is very small, to the point that there is no reason to use SS or SSG anymore.

Well to my knowledge the chapter hasn't been scanlated yet so I can only go by the images but that could still fit. It could still go SSJG > SSJ > Base just with 1/10th SSJB being somewhere in between SSJG and SSJB.

You're making total sense, the thing is who's to say it follows the movie version or the anime version or the promotional manga version? They are all different.
So I choose to use the information given by narrator, which is basically nothing. Fine, I work with what I have and don't fall for the trap of mixing different mediums, made by different people and being wrong.

[Chiki]

In the next ep preview, Goku's hair looks more like SSJ2 hair. Anyone else notice that?

[ekrolo2]

In the next ep preview, Goku's hair looks more like SSJ2 hair. Anyone else notice that?

How can you even tell given how virtually identical 1 and 2 look now and how commonly the lightnings gone.

[dbgtFO]

In the next ep preview, Goku's hair looks more like SSJ2 hair. Anyone else notice that?

How can you even tell given how virtually identical 1 and 2 look now and how commonly the lightnings gone.

With Goku and Cell Games Gohan it's pretty easy. Goku gets 1 bang in the middle and two on either side of his face.
The shots shown in the preview just have Goku with his Super Saiyan bangs(4-5 of them covering his forehead). The only difference is they have drawn the upward part of his hair with the sharpness reminiscent of Super Saiyan 2 hair, which is sharper, whereas SS hair is more loose with thicker bangs.

[Bullza]

You're making total sense, the thing is who's to say it follows the movie version or the anime version or the promotional manga version? They are all different.

Well all three of those have the same thing in common in that regard so it could follow any of them.

Toriyama made it a thing that Goku absorbed the God power and got so strong in base form. It then continued over to Resurrection F. It would also continue over for when he's writing these plot outlines.

Obviously Toyotaro seems to be aware of it too because it was heavily implied in his F manga so you would think he would carry such an important plot point over to a story that continues on from that rather than randomly do something different from all versions especially if Toriyama is as involved in the manga as some people suggest he is.

[LightBing]

You're making total sense, the thing is who's to say it follows the movie version or the anime version or the promotional manga version? They are all different.

Well all three of those have the same thing in common in that regard so it could follow any of them.

Toriyama made it a thing that Goku absorbed the God power and got so strong in base form. It then continued over to Resurrection F. It would also continue over for when he's writing these plot outlines.

Obviously Toyotaro seems to be aware of it too because it was heavily implied in his F manga so you would think he would carry such an important plot point over to a story that continues on from that rather than randomly do something different from all versions especially if Toriyama is as involved in the manga as some people suggest he is.

In the manga Goku didn't absorb the God power. Even in the anime, it's implied it might have been temporary. Whatever happened in the movies, power wise has no bearing to Super.
Because that was another story, one which was being written movie by movie, not knowing if it would continue. SSJB Goku being 60% of Beerus doesn't work, Goku and Vegeta challenging Beerus in a tag team doesn't work.

Whatever power hierarchy Mr.Toriyama intended for those movies, doesn't translate to any of Super mediums. Him admitting not having plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus support this.

[Bullza]

In the manga Goku didn't absorb the God power.

They just didn't say he did. The manga was so brief with the Battle of Gods arc that it was likely just left out because they didn't have the space or the time to also have Goku revert back into Super Saiyan and continue fighting and then have it explained. The whole fight lasted just 11 pages.

Because that was another story, one which was being written movie by movie, not knowing if it would continue. SSJB Goku being 60% of Beerus doesn't work, Goku and Vegeta challenging Beerus in a tag team doesn't work.

The movie can still fit with the manga though. He could still be 60% as strong in the manga and what not. If Toriyama has changed his mind and retconned Beerus' power upwards then all the stuff before would be out of date anyway.

Forgetting Kaioken and Beerus though because they're sort of besides the point. There is little reason to suggest that Base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue can't all be the same strenght across the movies, manga and anime.

It makes a lot more sense than the manga version having a bunch of the characters be several levels lower despite the battles being mostly similar and being based on the same thing.

There's no reason why manga Base Goku couldn't also be more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks just like in the anime. The same thing that suggests Goku is SSJ2 level in the manga was said the same in the anime too.

[RandomGuy96]

Hands down Dragonball Z/GT has exaggerated with power levels and now in super the power levels has become so complicated..

The only thing that really makes it so complicated is not knowing exactly how strong Base Goku is supposed to be and then how Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue relate to each other.

If Base is as strong as SSJG then is Super Saiyan still 50x as strong? That doesn't seem right to me for many reasons, how did he get 50x stronger in such a small period of time? Why is a noob SSJ Cabba roughly 50x stronger than a SSJG? Why was he able to stop Beerus' blast in base if he was struggling in SSJ? Wouldn't this make SSJG less than 2% as strong as Beerus?

SSJ being equal to SSJG and Base being 1/50th would make more sense.

How much stronger is SSJB supposed to be than SSJ? Or SSJG? If it's the Super Saiyan form of one who is as strong as SSJG then wouldn't SSJB be 50x stronger than SSJG or Base?

Guess, that's what we had to do since the Android arc. Nobody knew how strong the Base Saiyans, neither how SSJ worked besides being better than Kaioken.

We did actually. The base saiyans were much too weak to fight anyone relevant, even relative weaklings like Freeza and Gero, but were still much stronger than the humans (plus all the other villains from the previous arc, including Freeza's first three forms). Super Saiyan was better than Kaio-Ken, probably by a lot since KK x20 Goku is unable to overpower 50% Freeza, while SS Goku easily overpowers 100% Freeza (though it's not totally one-sided). In fact we could probably surmise the x50 boost just from that.

The Super Saiyans are noticeably stronger than SS Goku was on Namek, but probably not dimensions above him, since they've only been training for five years since then, and doing relatively mundane workouts. Vegeta is a tiny bit stronger than Goku, and both are a lot stronger than Trunks (but not by too much), who is stronger than Freeza. Piccolo is stronger than the base saiyans (since he thrashes Gero after he absorbs a bunch of ki, while a weaker Gero didn't even feel base Goku punching him) and weaker than the Super Saiyans; he may or may not be stronger than Freeza (depends on how you take Kami's line; thrashing Freeza is still supposed to be impressive at this point), but he still solidly lies in the range between those two levels. 19 and 20 are far above the base saiyans but far weaker than Piccolo. 17 and 18 are above the Super Saiyans, but not dimensions above them since Piccolo and Trunks both say that teamwork could be effective against the androids, and 17 says that three on one odds (Piccolo, Trunks, and Vegeta vs 18) would be too much for one of them. Everything was fairly clear.

Super on the other hand doesn't explain anything and contradicts its own power hierarchy every other week.

[GodKaio-Ken]

In the manga Goku didn't absorb the God power.

They just didn't say he did. The manga was so brief with the Battle of Gods arc that it was likely just left out because they didn't have the space or the time to also have Goku revert back into Super Saiyan and continue fighting and then have it explained. The whole fight lasted just 11 pages.

Because that was another story, one which was being written movie by movie, not knowing if it would continue. SSJB Goku being 60% of Beerus doesn't work, Goku and Vegeta challenging Beerus in a tag team doesn't work.

The movie can still fit with the manga though. He could still be 60% as strong in the manga and what not. If Toriyama has changed his mind and retconned Beerus' power upwards then all the stuff before would be out of date anyway.

Forgetting Kaioken and Beerus though because they're sort of besides the point. There is little reason to suggest that Base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue can't all be the same strenght across the movies, manga and anime.

It makes a lot more sense than the manga version having a bunch of the characters be several levels lower despite the battles being mostly similar and being based on the same thing.

There's no reason why manga Base Goku couldn't also be more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks just like in the anime. The same thing that suggests Goku is SSJ2 level in the manga was said the same in the anime too.

Like I said the Kaio-Ken can fit in as well. It's possible in that one moment at full strength he would have been stronger than Beerus...but that isn't the same as surpassing him. I mean a move that has something like a 90% chance of killing you isn't being better than someone...it's like a super deadly shot of adrenaline lol

[TheMikado]

We did actually. The base saiyans were much too weak to fight anyone relevant, even relative weaklings like Freeza and Gero, but were still much stronger than the humans (plus all the other villains from the previous arc, including Freeza's first three forms). Super Saiyan was better than Kaio-Ken, probably by a lot since KK x20 Goku is unable to overpower 50% Freeza, while SS Goku easily overpowers 100% Freeza. The Super Saiyans are noticeably stronger than SS Goku was on Namek, but probably not dimensions above him. Vegeta was about as strong as Goku, and both were stronger than Trunks, who was stronger than Freeza. Piccolo was stronger than the base saiyans (since he thrashes Gero after he absorbs a bunch of ki, while a weaker Gero didn't even feel base Goku punching him) and weaker than the Super Saiyans; he may or may not be stronger than Freeza (depends on how you take Kami's line; thrashing Freeza is still supposed to be impressive at this point), but he still solidly lies in the range of between those two levels. 19 and 20 are above the base saiyans but weaker than Piccolo. 17 and 18 are above the Super Saiyans, but not dimensions above them since 17 says that three on one odds would be too much for 18. Everything was fairly clear.

Super on the other hand doesn't explain anything and contradicts its own power hierarchy every other week.

Exactly this was definitely a cornerstone of DBZ was showing approximate power levels through various feats so yes if people get upset that Super isn't like DBZ it's because it isn't. DBZ power levels were fairly accurate to the characters at most times eventhough they were relative they still remained consistent even why being relative to one another. Super just doesn't do this and doesn't care so it's hard to care about the fights if you never know if a character is at their best or not at any given time.

[LightBing]

@Bullza
It's a fairly important plot point to be pushed aside due to space restraints. From what I recall, everything else of note is in the manga arc. If it isn't there it didn't happen, to me. It didn't even need to extend the fight to show it, a single line would suffice.

Anyway, I respectfully disagree with you. At this point we've come full circle.

@RandomGuy96
I forgot that we had the 50% Freeza information to guess a lot of things. My bad. Still past that it's all relatively in the dark, that's why people can't agree on where the the Humans were, how strong #19, #20 were. With the recent 10% Blue line the Super manga stands equal to the original manga, in the clues it provides. Since now we have a reference point.

The anime, lacks a reference point. But you can still say, SSJ Goku is much stronger than Final Form Frost, Cabba is equal to Vegeta. We just don't know if they're SSJ1 level or Gods, how they compare among themselves is discernible.
Regarding the contradictions, the Super anime makes a lot of them. That's why the manga is my tool of choice to make power distinctions.