"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Duo]

Unreal. The collective shit-fit in this thread since the Chapter 13 raw dropped has got to me one of the most shameful display of posts in Kanzenshuu memory. I don't even know where to begin.

@TheDevilsCorpse: Thank you for the translations and clarification on further details. You have done the community a great service and been very patient while doing so.

To anybody who thinks the manga version is garbage, just go watch the anime and calm down. Nothing was taken away from you. My god.

There is nothing insane or nuts about the act of transforming into Blue taking up a lot of Ki/stamina if done repeatedly. I thought that was a pretty cool way to address power drain for Vegeta. It's not something they had really run into before. For the people who claim that it means there's a "stamina drain" while transformed, you need to get re-educated in reading comprehension. This is not a very complicated concept.

Bringing Super Saiyan God back was a cool moment, even if it doesn't seem to quite make sense based on prior information. Toriyama approved it, so it just turns out we had the wrong impression of things. No. Big. Deal.

Kaio-ken was really great in the anime, but having things play out differently isn't a big deal either. Having multiple takes on the same basic story makes the relationship between the two versions more enriched than it was with the old series back in the day. Don't like one or the other? Just stick to the one you like. Calling the author, artist, or the animation studio "retarded" is childish and outright wrong. Let's all put on our big boy pants and have a discussion, not the tantrum of a toddler watching WWE.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Its also the closest thing we've got to Toyotaro doing F.

Yes, but they are different continuities. The FnF manga is based on the movie continuity, where Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, while the Super manga has its own continuity, where Goku didn't absorbed any power in his base or SS forms.

[kinisking]

Its also the closest thing we've got to Toyotaro doing F.

Yes, but they are different continuities. The FnF manga is based on the movie continuity, where Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, while the Super manga has its own continuity, where Goku didn't absorbed any power in his base or SS forms.

Untrue. If this was true than the whole Piccolo thing doesn't make sense. SS goku shouldn't be that much more powerful than frost if frost is much more powerful than piccolo. Maybe it's a smaller proportion?

[ekrolo2]

Its also the closest thing we've got to Toyotaro doing F.

Yes, but they are different continuities. The FnF manga is based on the movie continuity, where Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, while the Super manga has its own continuity, where Goku didn't absorbed any power in his base or SS forms.

Untrue. If this was true than the whole Piccolo thing doesn't make sense. SS goku shouldn't be that much more powerful than frost if frost is much more powerful than piccolo. Maybe it's a smaller proportion?

Its also the closest thing we've got to Toyotaro doing F.

Yes, but they are different continuities. The FnF manga is based on the movie continuity, where Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, while the Super manga has its own continuity, where Goku didn't absorbed any power in his base or SS forms.

Untrue. If this was true than the whole Piccolo thing doesn't make sense. SS goku shouldn't be that much more powerful than frost if frost is much more powerful than piccolo. Maybe it's a smaller proportion?

I re-read the chapters and I think the standard battle powers can work without an increase. We know Base Goku and Vegeta are somewhere inferior to Max Power Freeza from Namek while Piccolo has probably reached Cell Games Goku level by now. So stronger than their base states not no dice against them as Super Saiyan's.

Goku tells Frost he's still got a ways to go through training after beating him with just SSJ, whereas he needed Blue and Vegeta's help to kill Freeza in the F arc, and that tired & wounded Frost battles a fresh Piccolo, one who manages to force him to use poison in order to win.

Goku (base): 1
(SSJ): 50
Final Form Frost (fresh): 40
(tired): 27
Piccolo: 25

[kinisking]

Why is the original super saiyan twice as strong as Piccolo now though ? Only super saiyan 2 can achieve that feat if their bases havent grown considerably.

[ekrolo2]

Why is the original super saiyan twice as strong as Piccolo now though ? Only super saiyan 2 can achieve that feat if their bases havent grown considerably.

Goku, Gohan, Future Trunks and Vegeta are already stronger than Piccolo at the Cell Games. The former two are quite considerably tougher than him while Vegeta and Trunks are closer given the fact they and Piccolo are the only ones still standing when the Cell Jrs attack (though Piccolo takes the worst damage of the three).

Goku and Vegeta grow stronger still, eventually catching up to and bypassing Gohan at his Cell Games peak (at least Goku did, Vegeta's.... debatable without the potential unlock given to him by Babbid). When all of them fly towards Babbidi's ship, its the Saiyan's who're being called the ones with exceptional power while Piccolo isn't.

The guys obviously considerably stronger than their base forms given the fact that pre-ROSAT he can take on the Androids and later on be one of the three guys to withstand a Cell Jr but its also obvious there's a big chasm between him and the Super Saiyan's still.

[kinisking]

Why is the original super saiyan twice as strong as Piccolo now though ? Only super saiyan 2 can achieve that feat if their bases havent grown considerably.

Goku, Gohan, Future Trunks and Vegeta are already stronger than Piccolo at the Cell Games. The former two are quite considerably tougher than him while Vegeta and Trunks are closer given the fact they and Piccolo are the only ones still standing when the Cell Jrs attack (though Piccolo takes the worst damage of the three).

Goku and Vegeta grow stronger still, eventually catching up to and bypassing Gohan at his Cell Games peak (at least Goku did, Vegeta's.... debatable without the potential unlock given to him by Babbid). When all of them fly towards Babbidi's ship, its the Saiyan's who're being called the ones with exceptional power while Piccolo isn't.

The guys obviously considerably stronger than their base forms given the fact that pre-ROSAT he can take on the Androids and later on be one of the three guys to withstand a Cell Jr but its also obvious there's a big chasm between him and the Super Saiyan's still.

Well if Piccolo is around Mastered Super saiyan Goku as you said then Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan get much stronger than piccolo because of ss2. I don't see super saiyan getting much stronger than Piccolo because it's already mastered. UNLESS, their bases change considerably. However, the Beerus line saying they're weaker than Freeza proves otherwise.

[ekrolo2]

Why is the original super saiyan twice as strong as Piccolo now though ? Only super saiyan 2 can achieve that feat if their bases havent grown considerably.

Goku, Gohan, Future Trunks and Vegeta are already stronger than Piccolo at the Cell Games. The former two are quite considerably tougher than him while Vegeta and Trunks are closer given the fact they and Piccolo are the only ones still standing when the Cell Jrs attack (though Piccolo takes the worst damage of the three).

Goku and Vegeta grow stronger still, eventually catching up to and bypassing Gohan at his Cell Games peak (at least Goku did, Vegeta's.... debatable without the potential unlock given to him by Babbid). When all of them fly towards Babbidi's ship, its the Saiyan's who're being called the ones with exceptional power while Piccolo isn't.

The guys obviously considerably stronger than their base forms given the fact that pre-ROSAT he can take on the Androids and later on be one of the three guys to withstand a Cell Jr but its also obvious there's a big chasm between him and the Super Saiyan's still.

Well if Piccolo is around Mastered Super saiyan Goku as you said then Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan get much stronger than piccolo because of ss2. I don't see super saiyan getting much stronger than Piccolo because it's already mastered. UNLESS, their bases change considerably. However, the Beerus line saying they're weaker than Freeza proves otherwise.

I said Piccolo is around MSS Goku at the Cell Games now, which is still quite noticeably inferior to what Goku, Vegeta, and Cell Games Gohan got it to earlier on. We do get a glimpse of Whis making Goku and Vegeta train in their base forms with no transformations allowed so its entirely possible they've gotten past Namek Freeza's level at this point, further widening the gap.

[Saturnine]

So people now are choosing to ignore all those massive powerups received by the guys in the meantime just because Beerus said Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza in his base form? If I recall correctly, there were strong hints in the manga itself that by the Buu saga the Saiyans overtook Piccolo even in their base forms.

Also, did Beerus say it in Super, or only in BoG? Can't really remember. Though if he only said it in BoG, it's not binding in Super, just like him using 70% against Goku turned out to no longer be binding in Super.

[ekrolo2]

So people now are choosing to ignore all those massive powerups received by the guys in the meantime just because Beerus said Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza in his base form? If I recall correctly, there were strong hints in the manga itself that by the Buu saga the Saiyans overtook Piccolo even in their base forms.

Also, did Beerus say it in Super, or only in BoG? Can't really remember. Though if he only said it in BoG, it's not binding in Super, just like him using 70% against Goku turned out to no longer be binding in Super.

The only way Base Saiyan's could get stronger than Piccolo is if Goku and Gohan already left him in the dust in the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak as evidenced by the fact he's constantly touted as an impressive benchmark of power.

This becomes very debatable when you realize Super Saiyan Goku gets his ass kicked by a Cell Jr, even a tired one while Piccolo, despite not being one of the guys stated to hold his own against them is still one of the three to still be on his feet regardless along with Trunks and Vegeta. So, unless Super Saiyan Goku dropped a level inferior to his base form, I pretty much interpret all the Boo Saga hints as Babbidi and Dabra sensing that the Saiyan's have more juice due to their transformations. It wouldn't be the first or last time some one can gauge another persons power even if they're suppressing it.

I mean, Goku literally talks to Cell for two minutes and he already knows he won't beat him. So, the idea of one fighter knowing anothers limits despite them trying to hide it isn't an unprecedented thing in Dragon Ball.

Beerus also says it in Super but he doesn't say it in the Toyotaro manga so, ironically, that's the version where you might have a good case for Base Saiyan's > Piccolo. Though the fight against Frost once again seems to suggest otherwise.

[Saturnine]

So people now are choosing to ignore all those massive powerups received by the guys in the meantime just because Beerus said Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza in his base form? If I recall correctly, there were strong hints in the manga itself that by the Buu saga the Saiyans overtook Piccolo even in their base forms.

Also, did Beerus say it in Super, or only in BoG? Can't really remember. Though if he only said it in BoG, it's not binding in Super, just like him using 70% against Goku turned out to no longer be binding in Super.

The only way Base Saiyan's could get stronger than Piccolo is if Goku and Gohan already left him in the dust in the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak as evidenced by the fact he's constantly touted as an impressive benchmark of power.

This becomes very debatable when you realize Super Saiyan Goku gets his ass kicked by a Cell Jr, even a tired one while Piccolo, despite not being one of the guys stated to hold his own against them is still one of the three to still be on his feet regardless along with Trunks and Vegeta. So, unless Super Saiyan Goku dropped a level inferior to his base form, I pretty much interpret all the Boo Saga hints as Babbidi and Dabra sensing that the Saiyan's have more juice due to their transformations. It wouldn't be the first or last time some one can gauge another persons power even if they're suppressing it.

I mean, Goku literally talks to Cell for two minutes and he already knows he won't beat him. So, the idea of one fighter knowing anothers limits despite them trying to hide it isn't an unprecedented thing in Dragon Ball.

Beerus also says it in Super but he doesn't say it in the Toyotaro manga so, ironically, that's the version where you might have a good case for Base Saiyan's > Piccolo. Though the fight against Frost once again seems to suggest otherwise.

I'm under the impression that Buu Saga SSj2 Goku and Vegeta weren't significantly over SSj2 Gohan from the Cell Games because they only got the regular 2x multiplier, while Gohan got a much greater one (4-6x even) due to his anger. LegendarySSj7 wrote it up nicely in his PL list, though he used a mere 5x for Super Saiyan by the Buu saga, which also makes the bases way stronger by principle.

[ekrolo2]

So people now are choosing to ignore all those massive powerups received by the guys in the meantime just because Beerus said Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza in his base form? If I recall correctly, there were strong hints in the manga itself that by the Buu saga the Saiyans overtook Piccolo even in their base forms.

Also, did Beerus say it in Super, or only in BoG? Can't really remember. Though if he only said it in BoG, it's not binding in Super, just like him using 70% against Goku turned out to no longer be binding in Super.

The only way Base Saiyan's could get stronger than Piccolo is if Goku and Gohan already left him in the dust in the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak as evidenced by the fact he's constantly touted as an impressive benchmark of power.

This becomes very debatable when you realize Super Saiyan Goku gets his ass kicked by a Cell Jr, even a tired one while Piccolo, despite not being one of the guys stated to hold his own against them is still one of the three to still be on his feet regardless along with Trunks and Vegeta. So, unless Super Saiyan Goku dropped a level inferior to his base form, I pretty much interpret all the Boo Saga hints as Babbidi and Dabra sensing that the Saiyan's have more juice due to their transformations. It wouldn't be the first or last time some one can gauge another persons power even if they're suppressing it.

I mean, Goku literally talks to Cell for two minutes and he already knows he won't beat him. So, the idea of one fighter knowing anothers limits despite them trying to hide it isn't an unprecedented thing in Dragon Ball.

Beerus also says it in Super but he doesn't say it in the Toyotaro manga so, ironically, that's the version where you might have a good case for Base Saiyan's > Piccolo. Though the fight against Frost once again seems to suggest otherwise.

I'm under the impression that Buu Saga SSj2 Goku and Vegeta weren't significantly over SSj2 Gohan from the Cell Games because they only got the regular 2x multiplier, while Gohan got a much greater one (4-6x even) due to his anger. LegendarySSj7 wrote it up nicely in his PL list, though he used a mere 5x for Super Saiyan by the Buu saga, which also makes the bases way stronger by principle.

Eh, I don't really think Gohan needs to be 4 to 6 times stronger to beat the shit out of Cell. Even a standard x2 boost would probably let him murder Cell imo. As for the Saiyan multiplier shrinking, I don't really see any concrete evidence for it in anything except GT where we clearly see Goku tap into Super Saiyan like power in just his base form. A base form that got quite noticeably stronger while his SS forms are implied to have shrunk.

There's also the fact that Vegeta resorted to using Super Saiyan to beat up a greatly tired Frost in the manga, a Frost Piccolo was able to take on fairly well and forced Frost to poison him despite everyone around Piccolo seemingly writing him off as fodder, even his own team. You could say Vegeta's just doing that to mess with Frost but I think being beaten down by a Saiyan who doesn't even see you fit to transform for is a bigger kick to your ego.

[Brian4205]

I can't find the link off quick enough, but I remember Mr. Toriyama stated that Goku and Vegeta won't use SS2 and 3 anymore because they realized SS1 could become more powerful than those two limited forms. I imagine Goku and Vegeta, even if they aren't god level in base are at least ss3 level. Honestly the old multipliers are basically gone now, best not to try and use them in any math you do with the series.

[ekrolo2]

I can't find the link off quick enough, but I remember Mr. Toriyama stated that Goku and Vegeta won't use SS2 and 3 anymore because they realized SS1 could become more powerful than those two limited forms. I imagine Goku and Vegeta, even if they aren't god level in base are at least ss3 level. Honestly the old multipliers are basically gone now, best not to try and use them in any math you do with the series.

I'd be inclined to believe that if Toriyama hasn't basically gone against everything he's said lately. Base and Super Saiyan clearly aren't good for jack if Goku & Vegeta need more variations on Super Saiyan (and KK according to the anime). Vegeta was going to have a larger role in the Battle of Gods sequel and he does precisely jack and shit in that entire movie. Blue is a weak color for a form yet now, according to the anime, it belongs to the bestest, most perfect Super Saiyan form of all time,....

On the subject of power levels, you're right about Goku and Vegeta potentially being that strong for the anime, for the films they're practically on par with Goku's SSG strength but for the manga that doesn't seem to be the case. Primarily because of Piccolo, if you want any consistency between the Super manga and the old material, then the Base Saiyan's can't be on the level of an SSJ3 or else Piccolo, who has absolutely 0 training in the manga done, is suddenly powerful enough to take on a guy Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to beat.

Without a proper version of Resurrection F, we've got a big hole to fill in with a single line of dialogue that implies that in Toyotaro's version, Freeza was so much stronger than in the movie or show, Goku and Vegeta had to team up to beat him unlike the glorified sparring match we've seen in other versions.

I'm not saying anything Toriyama says is 100% wrong and bullshit, but it should be kept in mind the guy doesn't give a damn about the minutia of this stuff and is perfectly fine with the anime & manga doing separate things even under his guidance.

[LightBing]

I like to believe that the SSJ Saiyans are close or better than SSJ3, to serve as replacement for that forms in conformity with what Mr.Toriyama said. Which so far hasn't been contradicted, in fact taking into account SSJ2 or SSJ3 have been absent since the BoG arc, it kinda confirms it.

How strong do you guys have Piccolo? I think Cell Games SSJ Goku is the absolute ceiling, take into account he should only do "common training". Altought Mr.Toriyama said he trains constantly. In Dragon Ball, peace time training usually gives few to null gains.

[ekrolo2]

I like to believe that the SSJ Saiyans are close or better than SSJ3, to serve as replacement for that forms in conformity with what Mr.Toriyama said. Which so far hasn't been contradicted, in fact taking into account SSJ2 or SSJ3 have been absent since the BoG arc, it kinda confirms it.

How strong do you guys have Piccolo? I think Cell Games SSJ Goku is the absolute ceiling, take into account he should only do "common training". Altought Mr.Toriyama said he trains constantly. In Dragon Ball, peace time training usually gives few to null gains.

I actually think that's a fine thing to assume, but I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro just saw God and Blue as replacements for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 respectively. They'd even conform pretty well with God being the strong but more balanced one and Blue being the strongest but draining one.

[Xeztin]

I like to believe that the SSJ Saiyans are close or better than SSJ3, to serve as replacement for that forms in conformity with what Mr.Toriyama said. Which so far hasn't been contradicted, in fact taking into account SSJ2 or SSJ3 have been absent since the BoG arc, it kinda confirms it.

How strong do you guys have Piccolo? I think Cell Games SSJ Goku is the absolute ceiling, take into account he should only do "common training". Altought Mr.Toriyama said he trains constantly. In Dragon Ball, peace time training usually gives few to null gains.

I actually think that's a fine thing to assume, but I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro just saw God and Blue as replacements for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 respectively. They'd even conform pretty well with God being the strong but more balanced one and Blue being the strongest but draining one.

I kinda like it that way because you got your normal SSJ for mortal and or weak fights, you've got your SSG which is for people like Hit and is more balanced but has a 30 min time limit. and you have SSJB which is the strongest but drains the heck out of your energy. Each form has a weakness to keep them from being just another power-up to be replaced and making all 3 useful. Usually it's like, Goku attains SSJ2 which is just a stronger SSJ1 with no weaknesses and he wont use SSJ1 except for testing people which ruins it. SSJ, God, and Blue could be just as diverse and useful as Luffy's different Gears. I like how in the fight against Hit he actually made a strategy out of the forms, making Hit think SSG was his strongest and all of a sudden SSJB strikes out of no where. SSG and SSJB being "imperfect" or forms that have weakness, lines up since Whis once said they are just scratching the surface. It looks like a throw back to Goku trying to master his SSJ form, but now it's with God ki. I do wonder if SSG still has a 30 min time limit.

[ekrolo2]

I like to believe that the SSJ Saiyans are close or better than SSJ3, to serve as replacement for that forms in conformity with what Mr.Toriyama said. Which so far hasn't been contradicted, in fact taking into account SSJ2 or SSJ3 have been absent since the BoG arc, it kinda confirms it.

How strong do you guys have Piccolo? I think Cell Games SSJ Goku is the absolute ceiling, take into account he should only do "common training". Altought Mr.Toriyama said he trains constantly. In Dragon Ball, peace time training usually gives few to null gains.

I actually think that's a fine thing to assume, but I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro just saw God and Blue as replacements for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 respectively. They'd even conform pretty well with God being the strong but more balanced one and Blue being the strongest but draining one.

I kinda like it that way because you got your normal SSJ for mortal and or weak fights, you've got your SSG which is for people like Hit and is more balanced but has a 30 min time limit. and you have SSJB which is the strongest but drains the heck out of your energy. Each form has a weakness to keep them from being just another power-up to be replaced and making all 3 useful. Usually it's like, Goku attains SSJ2 which is just a stronger SSJ1 with no weaknesses and he wont use SSJ1 except for testing people which ruins it. SSJ, God, and Blue could be just as diverse and useful as Luffy's different Gears. I like how in the fight against Hit he actually made a strategy out of the forms, making Hit think SSG was his strongest and all of a sudden SSJB strikes out of no where. SSG and SSJB being "imperfect" or forms that have weakness, lines up since Whis once said they are just scratching the surface. It looks like a throw back to Goku trying to master his SSJ form, but now it's with God ki. I do wonder if SSG still has a 30 min time limit.

I too prefer they fact they're still flawed forms. If you're going to make Goku & Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis a long game plan, then they really have no business making Blue the most ubber perfect form of Super Saiyan ever so early on.

[LightBing]

I like to believe that the SSJ Saiyans are close or better than SSJ3, to serve as replacement for that forms in conformity with what Mr.Toriyama said. Which so far hasn't been contradicted, in fact taking into account SSJ2 or SSJ3 have been absent since the BoG arc, it kinda confirms it.

How strong do you guys have Piccolo? I think Cell Games SSJ Goku is the absolute ceiling, take into account he should only do "common training". Altought Mr.Toriyama said he trains constantly. In Dragon Ball, peace time training usually gives few to null gains.

I actually think that's a fine thing to assume, but I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro just saw God and Blue as replacements for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 respectively. They'd even conform pretty well with God being the strong but more balanced one and Blue being the strongest but draining one.

I kinda like it that way because you got your normal SSJ for mortal and or weak fights, you've got your SSG which is for people like Hit and is more balanced but has a 30 min time limit. and you have SSJB which is the strongest but drains the heck out of your energy. Each form has a weakness to keep them from being just another power-up to be replaced and making all 3 useful. Usually it's like, Goku attains SSJ2 which is just a stronger SSJ1 with no weaknesses and he wont use SSJ1 except for testing people which ruins it. SSJ, God, and Blue could be just as diverse and useful as Luffy's different Gears. I like how in the fight against Hit he actually made a strategy out of the forms, making Hit think SSG was his strongest and all of a sudden SSJB strikes out of no where. SSG and SSJB being "imperfect" or forms that have weakness, lines up since Whis once said they are just scratching the surface. It looks like a throw back to Goku trying to master his SSJ form, but now it's with God ki. I do wonder if SSG still has a 30 min time limit.

I like this, except for the SSJG weakness being the time limit. Way too cartoonish for my taste. It works when it's in a ritual, here I don't like that limitation. Of course if they elaborate: Goku's in top shape can maintain the form for around x time, Goku's pretty tired it's down to x time. Sure I guess, Fusion 2.0.

[Xeztin]

I would say the strong suits for SSG and SSB would be SSG can heal wounds, while SSB is much stronger. That's a way to make the forms diverse and useful, If that's the case I hope the pattern continues. Also if you think about SSG healing wounds every time, it does become pretty OP without a time-limit or something to keep it from being too broken.