Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

It would effect him if the guy powered down.

Well we know he was supressed but he didn't power up until midway through fighting Super Saiyan God. There's still no translations that I know of but it looks as though he's just at the same level from fighting SSJB Vegeta up until he clearly powers up. When Goku turns Super Saiyan you see him take the fight more seriously because he gets into a proper stance whereas against SSJB Vegeta and Base Goku he just has his hands in his pockets but that wouldn't change the durability of his face.

You could say he was perhaps pulling his punch so not to kill Goku but his face wouldn't be any tougher between being punched by Base Goku and being punched by Super Saiyan God Goku.

How tough these guys depends on their level of ki. If these guys suppress their power for an inferior adversary and don't power back up to a level where they can't get hurt anymore, this inferior adversary will hurt them. Especially an inferior enemy who took them by surprise like Goku did when he figures out Hit's ability and gets him. Its why Goku's instant Kamehameha can blow up half of Cell's body where as it would do jack shit with a healthy dose of fuck all to him if he were at his true power. Or how Cell underestimated Vegeta's Final Flash which, under his true power wouldn't dent him, managed to blow off a chunk of Cell's torso.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama did say that while he wouldn't need to go Super Saiyan God anymore, mastering their base AND Super Saiyan states would make him stronger, so there is a difference between the two.

Toriyama said that he wouldn't need SSG, yet now we see that he does need SSG, so obviously something changed.

As for needing both base & SS, SSB was originally supposed to be an upgraded version of Super Saiyan (like Super Saiyan Full Power) rather than an entirely new form.

What indication is that?

Goku & Vegeta avoided using their base forms against Frost, while Piccolo, while weaker, could at least make him get tired.

No I'm referring to you saying that SSJG is many times stronger than SSJ. Was that said? Because if all that was said was that he was stronger than SSJB 10% then couldn't he only be a little stronger than that? And SSJB 10% would only be a little stronger than SSJ? Making SSJG just a bit stronger than SSJ.

We know that SSB is less that x2 stronger than SSG (SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and SSB Goku falls between them, unless we get another retcon), and we know that SS was weaker than 1/10th SSB, while SSG was stronger than 1/10th SSB. So, SS is over x10 weaker than SSB, while SSG is less than x2 weaker than SSB, making SS many times weaker than SSG.

Well there's been plenty of opportunities for the two base theory to be clarified, in particular somewhere during the Champa arc but it was never said.

Same about SSG becoming part of base/SS Goku's power.

Android 16 punched Semi Perfect Cell in his face and he didn't budge at all, so how could someone weaker than Frieza hurt someone strong enough to tangle with Super Saiyan God?

Same way a weak ray gun pierced the body of a Super Saiyan Blue. Hit was holding back, and he didn't expect that base Goku would be able to beat his Tokitobashi.

[Bullza]

How tough these guys depends on their level of ki.

Yeah and Hit's level of Ki initially was at a level high enough to have little trouble against SSJB Vegeta and have a more even fight with SSJ Goku and then started to lose the upper hand when Goku turned into a SSJG. That level that he was at allowed him to withstand punches from SSJG Goku but it was also at a level that Base Goku could hurt him as well. Then he powered up.

If Hit at his supressed level was still enough for him to take those attacks and still keep going then it should be a level vastly above the likes that Base Goku should ever be to be able to hurt him if he's just at regular levels.

Toriyama said that he wouldn't need SSG, yet now we see that he does need SSG, so obviously something changed.

He may have changed his mind. He may just be Toyotaro's inclusion but the interview where Toriyama said that was for the Battle of Gods movie which did have Goku needing to become SSJG again to stop his earth blowing up.

Goku & Vegeta avoided using their base forms against Frost, while Piccolo, while weaker, could at least make him get tired.

Yeah but even though those two might be weaker than Frost perhaps they could have made him more tired than what Piccolo did and without having to fight defensively.

We know that SSB is less that x2 stronger than SSG (SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and SSB Goku falls between them, unless we get another retcon), and we know that SS was weaker than 1/10th SSB, while SSG was stronger than 1/10th SSB. So, SS is over x10 weaker than SSB, while SSG is less than x2 weaker than SSB, making SS many times weaker than SSG.

Oh right I see what you mean and that's a good point but that 6/10/15 scale is going by movie information and the same movie information tells us that SSJ isn't that much weaker than SSJG so SSJB should be less that twice as strong as SSJ aswell. Toriyama's recent comment might mean that he's just retconned Beerus' power anyway if he wants to keep him above them while still making Goku and Vegeta stronger.

Same about SSG becoming part of base/SS Goku's power.

Well that has at least been clarified by several other things from the movies to the anime to promotional material to games etc. The two base theory is just that, a theory.

Same way a weak ray gun pierced the body of a Super Saiyan Blue. Hit was holding back, and he didn't expect that base Goku would be able to beat his Tokitobashi.

Yeah we know he was holding back, he was holding back until after he fought SSJG Goku for a little bit. Prior to powering up though, the level he was fighting at was enough for him to be hurt by Base and SSJG Goku which perfectly matches what also happened when he fought Beerus and he wasn't expecting Goku to suddenly teleport behind him and hit in the gut.

And that's because there isn't an enormous gap between the two forms. Which is what was established in Battle of Gods and then makes it sync up just fine with what happened in the Resurrection F movie and also with the Super anime which is exactly what it should be doing.

Everything fits just fine.

[ekrolo2]

Is there anything supporting the existence of Chou Super Saiyan? The hypothetical Super Saiyan form that's been so mastered that it gives you a bigger boost than Super Saiyan 3?

[RandomGuy96]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

Why would base Goku be at SS3 level?

Because that's where he is at the EOZ, and in the movies + manga he's clearly much stronger than SS Gohan, but much weaker than SSG, and implied to be weaker than Piccolo who is implied to be weaker than Mr. Buu.

The manga wasn't written with BoG/FnF/Super in mind,

All of them are the closest to Toriyama's vision, they should be decently consistent with each other.

The Super manga retcons SSG from the movies, and doesn't have Goku & Vegeta absorbing any of its power in their base & SS forms. So you are right, it remains consistent with the original manga.

It doesn't really retcon anything related to the movies, except for Beerus's initial meeting with the gang I guess.

[apex_pretador]

The kanji used is "Oku" which is 1,0000,0000 (4 zeroes intentional), so wouldn't 53 "Oku" be 5,300,000,000?

Then again, I think he is saying "go juu san oku desu"

But my Japanese knowledge is sparse at best!

It'd be more suited for first form freeza than final form, as my numbers have SS2 kid gohan at 1.9 billion.

I agree. After all, the 530,000 number that this new power level is a play on was Freeza's power level in his first form.
This statement (though not very important) implies that Freeza got ten thousand times stronger, no? I don't see a problem with that, honestly. According to my numbers it should place him above Good Buu, which is the only thing that might be weird.

Also, funny that you put SSJ2 Teen Gohan at 1.9 billion. On my list he's 2.1 billion. Usually I see way bigger numbers, so it's fun to see someone who pretty much agrees with me.

In 4 months
Who needs to train when you can become twice as strong by running 10 km? Freeza should've just blown up his chair.

Interesting to see you having gohan that close to mine, as not many people have numbers similar to mine either.
My lists also have an interesting pattern:

- Final form F = 120 million
- Perfect Cell = 1200 million / 1.2 billion
- Kid buu = 12000 million / 12 billion

[Bullza]

So the newest chapter has been fully scanlated and from that it we can say

- Hit was at the same level from when he fought Vegeta up until he powered up mid way through fighting SSJG Goku so that Base Goku was able to hurt him pretty much proves that like he movies and anime the Base Saiyans are drastically more powerful than before.

- Beerus says SSJ Goku has Hit beat in power.

- Whis says Vegeta couldn't even use 1/10th of Blues power and not exactly 1/10th. I see nothing that suggests that Vegeta was stronger than SSJ Goku though.

- SSJG Goku surpasses that Vegeta and Hits current level.

- Hit then powers up and is able to stop Goku so I'd assume he's stronger than SSJG at that point but when Goku turns SSJB it no longer stops him so it seems he surpassed him again.

- Goku says to Vegeta that they both knew that Vegeta could have beat Cabba as just a SSJ.

So with the entire arc over I'd say the order went like this

SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Hit (Full Power)
SSJG Goku
SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Hit
Magetta
SSJ Cabba
Frost Final Form
Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Frost Assault Form
Piccolo (Could be one higher)
Botamo

[ekrolo2]

So the newest chapter has been fully scanlated and from that it we can say

- Hit was at the same level from when he fought Vegeta up until he powered up mid way through fighting SSJG Goku so that Base Goku was able to hurt him pretty much proves that like he movies and anime the Base Saiyans are drastically more powerful than before.

Him powering up to full strength against God doesn't mean he wasn't suppressing himself before to avoid killing Goku. The only thing Hit's powering up says is that he was holding back before which doesn't automatically mean he held back the same amount against Vegeta as he does for Base Goku.

[Bullza]

The only time his power was mentioned to change was when he clearly powered up, that's why Whis and Beerus were talking about his current level before and why Vegeta couldn't beat him and how Goku had now surpassed it and what not.

He was suppressing himself but it wasn't fluctuating from fight to fight. There was just his one suppressed level and then his full power level.

[ekrolo2]

The only time his power was mentioned to change was when he clearly powered up, that's why Whis and Beerus were talking about his current level before and why Vegeta couldn't beat him and how Goku had now surpassed it and what not.

He was suppressing himself but it wasn't fluctuating from fight to fight. There was just his one suppressed level and then his full power level.

By that logic, Super Saiyan = Base Goku should be equals since Goku powers up from that but Hit doesn't increase his strength until Goku activates God. Clearly showing Hit can actually control how much he wants to suppress against any given opponent. Suppression usually doesn't have a visual effect like that unless one guy keeps flaring an aura then discards it which Hit didn't do.

[LowRyder2005]

We can use Hit's time skip to deduce the power gaps.

1. Super Saiyan Blue Goku/ Vegeta <- can break the timeskip
2. Hit (full power/ no killing techniques)
3. Super Saiyan God Goku <- can break the timeskip (suppressed Hit)
4. Hit (suppressed/ no killing techniques)
5. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (tired) <- could at least predict movements, but lacks intuition
6. Super Saiyan Goku/ Vegeta <- Goku predicts movements
7. Super Saiyan Cabbe <- weaker than Vegeta, indirectly implied to be superior to his base
8. Base Goku/ Vegeta <- Goku predicts movements
9. Base Cabbe <- can keep up with Base Vegeta

Corollary: Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (second time): ~ 5 to 9% of regular Super Saiyan Blue.

The full rankings could be something like this:

1. Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta
2. Hit
3. Super Saiyan God Goku
4. Magetta
5. Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta
6. Mr. Buu (?)
7. Super Saiyan Cabbe
8. Final Form Frost
9. Piccolo (?)
10. Assault Form Frost
11. Base Goku and Vegeta
12. Base Cabbe
13. First Form Frost
14. Botamo

Boo would probably be around Magetta.

[Bullza]

Hit doesn't power up when Goku turns Super Saiyan but he clearly takes the fight more seriously because he takes his hands out of his pockets and gets into a proper stance.

If it's how it's presented in the movie with Super Saiyan not being that much stronger than Base then Hit wouldn't need to power up, him taking the fight seriously makes up for that difference.

In other words

Base Goku = Suppressed Hit not taking the fight seriously/underestimating Goku

Super Saiyan Goku = Suppressed Hit fighting seriously

SSJG Goku > Suppressed Hit fighting seriously

Hit at full power > SSJG Goku

SSJB Goku > Hit at full power but holding back from using killing techniques.

It doesn't make sense for Hit to be fluctuating his power like that because why would he lower it enough for Base Goku to hurt him? or for him to withstand a punch? Why not just do what Beerus did and lower it enough so that he could just flick Goku out of the ring?

[LowRyder2005]

Anyway, one more for the two-base/ base forms are as strong as needed theory in the anime:

Let's preface something:

* According to Vegeta, Trunks and Goten on their own aren't strong enough to take part. The logical consequence of the phrase is that Gotenks would be strong enough to take part in the tournament. (Mr. Buu, Gotenks and Piccolo > Goten and Trunks)
* According to Vegeta, Base Cabbe is so weak he shouldn't have even bothered to take part in the tournament = Base Cabbe is weaker than all of the people above whom Vegeta deems strong enough to be in the tourney.

Also, at no point does Vegeta state that the level of the fighters until Cabbe surpassed his expectations (on the contrary, he's basically as unimpressed as ever).

This should prove what? That at least SS3 Gotenks is stronger than Base Cabbe in Vegeta's eyes. Buuut, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is weaker than Base Vegeta and by a good margin. Vegeta has seen Gotenks fight six months ago, and doesn't remark that Gotenks has gotten abnormally weaker in his fight with Copy-Vegeta.

Also, let's assume Base Cabbe is around Super Saiyan-holy moley- God Goku because he can keep it up with the Base Saiyans and the Base Saiyans are as strong as the God form. Wouldn't it be a silly choice of words to say it to someone who is that strong?
Still the anime, next episode preview: Trunks going Super Saiyan and Goku turning Super Saiyan to stop him.

In short, after weighing both the manga and the anime feats and statements, to me it still looks like everyone minus Hit is on Z levels and that Base Goku and Vegeta aren't god tier during the tournament.

[LowRyder2005]

It doesn't make sense for Hit to be fluctuating his power like that because why would he lower it enough for Base Goku to hurt him? or for him to withstand a punch? Why not just do what Beerus did and lower it enough so that he could just flick Goku out of the ring?

Why doesn't it make sense to you? I think it's pretty in-line with what we are accustomed with within the series.
Base Goku appears = he's a weaker enemy = Hit saves power and ki by taking it easier. However he underestimates Goku and gets a bloody nose. Their fight involves a lot of strategy, so I can definitely see something like this going on.

There's not even a clear display of Hit raising his power from Base to Super Saiyan Goku, since he just changes stance.
It's pretty clear to me that both are displaying some degree of sportmanship by not destroying the opponent when they could (Suppressed Hit suppresses himself even more vs. Base Goku; Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Suppressed Hit).

You'd have the same problem - proportion-wise - even if you have Super Saiyan Goku being two times stronger than Base Goku, Super Saiyan God being *1.5 stronger than Super Saiyan Goku and so on. Suppressed Hit could still curbstomp Base Goku if he wanted to, because he'd end up more a little less than two times stronger Base Goku. That's enough to get a clear win.

[ekrolo2]

Hit doesn't power up when Goku turns Super Saiyan but he clearly takes the fight more seriously because he takes his hands out of his pockets and gets into a proper stance.

If it's how it's presented in the movie with Super Saiyan not being that much stronger than Base then Hit wouldn't need to power up, him taking the fight seriously makes up for that difference.

In other words

Base Goku = Suppressed Hit not taking the fight seriously/underestimating Goku

Super Saiyan Goku = Suppressed Hit fighting seriously

SSJG Goku > Suppressed Hit fighting seriously

Hit at full power > SSJG Goku

SSJB Goku > Hit at full power but holding back from using killing techniques.

It doesn't make sense for Hit to be fluctuating his power like that because why would he lower it enough for Base Goku to hurt him? or for him to withstand a punch? Why not just do what Beerus did and lower it enough so that he could just flick Goku out of the ring?

Why do you keep avoiding the fact this guy's pre-programmed to kill people? When he knocks out Vegeta, he's actually confused about what he has to do him, he can't kill him and Vegeta can't surrender since he's unconscious so he asks the judge if he needs to chuck him out of the arena to win. Then, when he powers up, he says its been so long that his body probably can't take going 100% anymore for more than a minute.

By playing it safe IE, matching his opponents power and with his time leap, Hit can punch or kick them anyway he wants without accidentally causing a fatal injury and with time leap, he can avoid anything they throw at him. Its shown time and again that when equal power opponents fight, they can do equal damage mutually to one another. Hit clearly doesn't know or trust himself to not play it safe so that's what he does until Goku uses SSG: plays it safe and matches their strength to hurt them but not accidentally kill them.

[Bullza]

Why doesn't it make sense to you?

Because the idea is that he's fluctuating his power so not to kill Goku which in itself makes sense. So he fights Base Goku and lowers his power so not to kill him but why didn't he just lower it a little less so he could just flick him out if the ring?

Then when Goku turns Super Saiyan I suppose Hit increases his power but again to the point where's he's just about even with him. Again why would he suppress his power to the point he'd have trouble with him?

Then when Goku turns Super Saiyan God Hit must power up again if his head wasn't knocked out but then why would he increase his suppressed power to a level weaker than Goku?

There's not even a clear display of Hit raising his power from Base to Super Saiyan Goku, since he just changes stance.

Which is why that supports that it's matching up with what was established in the movie. Goku turns Super Saiyan but it's not gonna drastically boost his power and the gap between those two forms is made up by Hit fighting seriously.

Goku goes Super Saiyan. Hit fights seriously.

By playing it safe IE, matching his opponents power and with his time leap, Hit can punch or kick them anyway he wants without accidentally causing a fatal injury and with time leap, he can avoid anything they throw at him.

But if Hit is strong enough o go up against SSJB Goku then why could he not just do what Beerus did against SSJ3 Goku and suppress his power to a level where

1. Goku can't hurt him
2. He can just flick Goku out the ring and be done with it.

What was shown syncs up with what happened in the movies and matches up with the power levels seen in Super which is exactly what they should be doing and what you'd think they would be doing.....and people are trying to find some argument to instead make the power levels based on the exact same thing to be completely different and make it unnecessarily complicated.

If there's not a huge difference between Base, SSJ and SSJG as the BoG movie showed then this fight showcases that perfectly.

[ekrolo2]

By playing it safe IE, matching his opponents power and with his time leap, Hit can punch or kick them anyway he wants without accidentally causing a fatal injury and with time leap, he can avoid anything they throw at him.

But if Hit is strong enough o go up against SSJB Goku then why could he not just do what Beerus did against SSJ3 Goku and suppress his power to a level where

1. Goku can't hurt him
2. He can just flick Goku out the ring and be done with it.

What was shown syncs up with what happened in the movies and matches up with the power levels seen in Super which is exactly what they should be doing and what you'd think they would be doing.....and people are trying to find some argument to instead make the power levels based on the exact same thing to be completely different and make it unnecessarily complicated.

If there's not a huge difference between Base, SSJ and SSJG as the BoG movie showed then this fight showcases that perfectly.

He doesn't trust himself to do it, that's my point, this guy's go to response is to kill someone and he's clearly out of practice with his abilities that he need can't use his full power anymore for over a minute. He doesn't want to accidently go overboard and kick Goku hard enough to kill him, thereby disqualifying himself and incurring the wrath of Champa.

And Goku already can't hurt him in equal power levels: because of time skip! With time skip, Hit can hurt Goku an equal amount Goku can hurt him... except Goku CAN'T hurt him thanks to time skip. Its essentially what would've happened to Goku if Cell used his true speed on him but kept everything else surpressed, Goku would still technically be able to hurt him but he'd be so inferior to Cell's speed he'd never have a prayer of landing anything on Cell. That's why Hit suppressing his power makes sense to me.

I also REALLY don't like trying to shoehorn the movies into this because they don't sync up at all, BoG from the movie doesn't happen in the manga by virtue of manga having its own BoG. I'm not saying that you can't have it sync up but 1) I think Hit suppressing his power to match his adversary works for his character and power wise since Time Skip gives him a definitive edge anyhow works fine and 2) I really don't like the movies scaling because what the fuck is even the point of having transformations if they're marginally improvements at absolute best at that point? Might as well chuck em out the window and just have them use Base from now on.

[LowRyder2005]

I really don't like the movies scaling because what the wowzers is even the point of having transformations if they're marginally improvements at absolute best at that point?

That's my main gripe as well. Although I can see Bullza's points, to make Base Goku vs. Hit, SS Goku vs. Hit fit together - while acknowledging only the times Hit expressly raised his ki - wouldn't you literally have to make Base Goku a 1, SS Goku a 1.1, and SSG Goku a 1.2?

I see the "Hit power fluctuates according to his opponent" theory considerably more preferable, in that regard.
I'll concede that the writing isn't stellar in both manga and (especially) the anime, however. I mean, putting the manga aside and focusing on the anime, either you have Base Goku superior to regular Blue Vegeta during Goku vs. Hit or you justify it with Hit playing the cat-and-mouse game with Goku.

[HeroR]

As it was pointed by several other posters, Super Saiyan God wasn't even needed for this fight. Goku could have fought Hit as just a Super Saiyan since he was already superior and gone Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan once Hit starting fighting all out. Super Saiyan God literally added nothing.

[ekrolo2]

As it was pointed by several other posters, Super Saiyan God wasn't even needed for this fight. Goku could have fought Hit as just a Super Saiyan since he was already superior and gone Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan once Hit starting fighting all out. Super Saiyan God literally added nothing.

Hit powering up even more once Goku started using God would beg to differ. It is BECAUSE of regular God Goku sees what Hits limits are and knows when to perfectly time turning into Blue, giving him an opening to take him by surprise and win the fight.