The Things GT Got Right

[ekrolo2]

Us. All the people who got the series where it is solely from buying the products.

That's way too broad of a thing to do. One guy's idea of good story-telling could be Gohan's scholarly pursuits saving the world while the other guy will call him retarded then say Super Saiyan 5 getting introduced would be way better! Then multiply this by God knows how many and you've got the text book definition of a cluster fuck.

[ABED]

I think there's a good distinction to be made between interacting with fans and listening to them. Its good for a creator to hear feedback but there also has to be something kept in mind: a lot of fans don't know jack or shit about good story-telling.

That's true but at the very least the writer respects his fans enough to listen to what they have to say and doesn't act like he's above everyone like how Toei and Toriyama act.

Is the mere fact that they don't listen the proof that they think they're above everyone?

[Lord Beerus]

Us. All the people who got the series where it is solely from buying the products.

But as ekrolo2 quite eloquently put it: a lot of fans don't know jack or shit about good story-telling. I mean, which portion of fans do you actually listen too? And which portion of fans do you outright ignore? The Dragon Ball community is so large and diverse, and everyone has such a different opinion of where the Dragon Ball story should go, that in the end, the batch of good ideas that fans may have usually get mixed with the batch of ideas that fans also have. And the end of the day, what constitutes as "good" idea for one fan may be seen a "bad" idea by a another.

[sintzu]

*sigh* This is getting way off-topic again, sorry, it's my fault.

If Toei and Toriyama listened to their fans, everyone would enjoy Super more. Not if they ignored them. That's like saying Dimps shouldn't listen to feedback for Xenoverse 2.

Which fans?

Everyone who've been complaining about characters like Piccolo and Gohan not getting any important screen time.

Everyone who've been complaining about Super's quality.

It's not just one or 2 people, it's been pretty much everyone and there's no way they don't know about what we've been asking for.

Oh wait, they do and they made it Crystal clear that they don't care about what we think.

[Anime Kitten]

Well, we all like DB, and that's good enough for me.

And when did they say that, sintzu? Just curious.

[sintzu]

A lot of fans don't know jack or shit about good story-telling.

And the people currently working on the franchise do ?

[sintzu]

And when did they say that, sintzu? Just curious.

There was an interview with one or 2 people who worked at Toei and the interviewer asked them about the quality drop in Super's 5th episode and they said it wasn't that bad and fans were making a big deal out of nothing.

[ABED]

*sigh* This is getting way off-topic again, sorry, it's my fault.

If Toei and Toriyama listened to their fans, everyone would enjoy Super more. Not if they ignored them. That's like saying Dimps shouldn't listen to feedback for Xenoverse 2.

Which fans?

Everyone who've been complaining about characters like Piccolo and Gohan not getting any important screen time.

Everyone who've been complaining about Super's quality.

It's not just one or 2 people, it's been pretty much everyone and there's no way they don't know about what we've been asking for.

Oh wait, they do and they made it Crystal clear that they don't care about what we think.

You assume that those are good ideas. What about the people who aren't complaining about Super's quality? How do you know the one's that are complaining are correct?

And the people currently working on the franchise do ?

Two wrongs don't make a right. If a bad writer doesn't tell a good story, what good would listening to fans do? How would they know what advice to take and then apply?

[Lord Beerus]

*sigh* This is getting way off-topic again, sorry, it's my fault.

If Toei and Toriyama listened to their fans, everyone would enjoy Super more. Not if they ignored them. That's like saying Dimps shouldn't listen to feedback for Xenoverse 2.

Which fans?

Everyone who've been complaining about characters like Piccolo and Gohan not getting any important screen time.

Everyone who've been complaining about Super's quality.

It's not just one or 2 people, it's been pretty much everyone and there's no way they don't know about what we've been asking for.

Oh wait, they do and they made it Crystal clear that they don't care about what we think.

It's a double edged sword listening to fans. It may appease them in the short term to see Piccolo and Gohan get more significant screen time but how do you manage to do that while also telling a good story? It's one thing just to say, "Give Character X more screen time", but how to manage to put that into the practice without upsetting the flow of the narrative, or better yet, making the story as whole better? The same thing about the quality of Super. It's such a broad complaint just to say, "Improve the quality of Super". And trying find a anecdote for that is far more complex than fans think.

[Anime Kitten]

Well, then they're just too prideful about their work. And they don't care about us not liking it.

[ekrolo2]

Also getting back to the truth of the matter: a lot of people are just not good story-tellers and lets face, Dragon Ball's fanbase is.... not the greatest.... I'm pretty sure asking all of them how to do the next anything would end up with something resembling a near tangible level of raw stupidity.

[ABED]

It's not helpful to listen to fans. It's more helpful to listen to someone's opinion you trust to be honest with you.

Regarding fan opinion, it's only helpful in a very broad sense. If ratings are dropping there's a good chance your story isn't landing. To use an analogy, I'm not a good cook, but I know what food I like and if I go to a restaurant and I don't like my meal, I usually won't know how to fix it, but I can vote with my wallet. If enough people don't go to the restaurant, either the chef should get canned or the restaurant should go under.

[Lord Beerus]

A lot of fans don't know jack or shit about good story-telling.

And the people currently working on the franchise do ?

I'm not saying that the people working on Super have been doing a good job at telling a story, far from it. I'm just saying that a lot of fans themselves don't really know the know the broad scope of what it takes to tell a good story for an episodic long running TV show that appeals to children. Throwing in characters who have been left aside into the limelight doesn't equate to better story telling.

[Anime Kitten]

If this conversation keeps going, please move it to the problems with Super thread. I'd like it to get back on topic.

[sintzu]

You assume that those are good ideas.

What about the people who aren't complaining about Super's quality ?

How do you know the one's that are complaining are correct ?

If a bad writer doesn't tell a good story, what good would listening to fans do ?

How would they know what advice to take and then apply ?

Giving Piccolo and Gohan important screen time is a bad idea ? how would having them fight and win against 2 unique Freeza solders do anything other than improve RF's quality ?

That's less people for them to worry about.

When everyone's bringing up the same issue.

Help him come up with better ideas.

The popular advice, if everyone's saying the same thing over and over again then chances are it's the right advice.

[ABED]

You assume that those are good ideas.

What about the people who aren't complaining about Super's quality ?

How do you know the one's that are complaining are correct ?

If a bad writer doesn't tell a good story, what good would listening to fans do ?

How would they know what advice to take and then apply ?

Giving Piccolo and Gohan important screen time is a bad idea ? how would having them fight and win against 2 unique Freeza solders do anything other than improve RF's quality ?

That's less people for them to worry about.

No one can say that Super's quality doesn't need any improvements.

Help him come up with better ideas.

The popular advice, if everyone's saying the same thing over and over again then chances are it's the right advice.

1 - I haven't seen the show, so I can't comment on specifics, but the latter part of the Buu arc wasn't hurt by not having Gohan and Piccolo. Resurrection F would've been better had it not screwed up the logic of its own world.
2 - I doubt Super's problems are so specific that just giving Gohan and Piccolo more screen time would increase the quality of the show.
3 - Saying the quality needs to improve is so vague that it's not helpful, especially if the people complaining will watch regardless.
4 - If someone is a bad writer, how will he know what are the good ideas or how to implement them?
5 - I guarantee you that there's never been a case where there's universal agreement.

If this conversation keeps going, please move it to the problems with Super thread. I'd like it to get back on topic.

The conversation is broader than just the problems with Super.

[Anime Kitten]

Well, it shouldn't be going on in a thread about what GT did right.

[sintzu]

The latter part of the Buu arc wasn't hurt by not having Gohan and Piccolo.

Resurrection F would've been better had it not screwed up the logic of its own world.

2 - I doubt Super's problems are so specific that just giving Gohan and Piccolo more screen time would increase the quality of the show.

3 - Saying the quality needs to improve is so vague that it's not helpful, especially if the people complaining will watch regardless.

4 - If someone is a bad writer, how will he know what are the good ideas or how to implement them?

5 - I guarantee you that there's never been a case where there's universal agreement.

The latter part of the Buu arc didn't have them in it but the other parts did alongside the rest of Z. All of Super hasn't done anything with them yet.

True.

They're screen time isn't the only problem but giving them more would help its writing.

It's not so bad that it's not worth watching for free.

That's up to them to figure that out but communicating with fans would be a step in the right direction.

EVERYONE agrees that Super's 5th episode is a stain on the franchise's name yet Toei said it wasn't that bad.

[ABED]

I think one of us should create another thread because it's off topic but a very interesting issue.

[sintzu]

I think one of us should create another thread because it's off topic but a very interesting issue.

I nominate you.