Listen to the fans or not

[ABED]

No, it's entitlement. You didn't give the money out of charity. You paid for a product and both sides benefitted. The reason why the franchises exist to become big is because of the artist created something people valued.

Look at Dimps and XV2, everything they've said revolves around them listening to the fans and wanting to work with them to make their game better so if they can do that, why can't Toei and Toriyama ?

Look at Buffy, Joss didn't listen to the fans and the show was better as a result.

Fans are the reason why franchises' like DB are as big as they are so at the very least the people working on them should try to respect us and take out requests and criticisms into account.

How? I come back to fans aren't all the same. You might like something I don't, and vice versa. The writer should try to surprise the audience, not pander to their requests.

Dimps is trying to improve the flaws of the previous game, they want to please as many people they can get. Therefore in their case, listening to the fans is a good thing. As I said earlier, fan-service can be good, but they need to know how they deal with it.

How do you know it's them listening to fans and not just realizing they made a bad game?

Have you ever heard stories about focus groups for movies? Their comments are notoriously horrible and unhelpful.

[sintzu]

How do you know it's them listening to fans and not just realizing they made a bad game?

Have you ever heard stories about focus groups for movies? Their comments are notoriously horrible and unhelpful.

I can't read their mind so I obviously can't tell you if they're lying or not but it's a lot better then how Toei deals with fans.

What's that ?

[Grimlock]

]How do you know it's them listening to fans and not just realizing they made a bad game?

Have you ever heard stories about focus groups for movies? Their comments are notoriously horrible and unhelpful.

Because they didn't make a bad game as far as I can see, but if they think they made a bad game, they didn't tell us (and probably won't).

No I didn't, but surely it's interesting to know about that.

[ABED]

Focus groups are when studios let a group of people watch a movie before it's released and then get feedback. Specific feedback is usually bad, but gut reactions from an audience can sometimes be valuable, though that tends to be the exception not the rule.

And how is Toei being disrespectful?

Because they didn't make a bad game as far as I can see, but if they think they made a bad game, they didn't tell us (and probably won't).

So you just know they listened to the fans because they didn't make a bad game? Haven't you ever made something and later realized it wasn't good?

[sintzu]

Focus groups are when studios let a group of people watch a movie before it's released and then get feedback.

And how is Toei being disrespectful?

They shouldn't bring anyone off the street to get feedback from but I think the staff here and who work on Dragon Ball Multiverse are qualified to give genuine advice that would make the show better.

In terms of everyone else, they should have some kind of official forum that they could use to see what everyone else thinks.

They said that fans were making a big deal over Super's 5th episode.

[ryou766]

If they had an official forum, no doubt it would be clustered with fans who would... make things worse than they already are.

[Grimlock]

So you just know they listened to the fans because they didn't make a bad game? Haven't you ever made something and later realized it wasn't good?

That doesn't necessarily mean something is bad. By listening to the fans, in this case, may mean they at least acknowledge the first game had flaws. But those flaws don't make the game bad. Dragon Ball Xenoverse is really far from being a bad game.

[ABED]

So you just know they listened to the fans because they didn't make a bad game? Haven't you ever made something and later realized it wasn't good?

That doesn't necessarily mean something is bad. By listening to the fans, in this case, may mean they at least acknowledge the first game had flaws. But those flaws don't make the game bad. Dragon Ball Xenoverse is really far from being a bad game.

I think if people are really honest with themselves, they can tell if something is bad. They may not care to change it, especially if it's successful, but they know. I think the most useful audience opinion is the gut reaction. In stand up, it's are you getting laughs. If you are, you've done your job, if you aren't, then what good would it do to go to the audience for advice?

In terms of everyone else, they should have some kind of official forum that they could use to see what everyone else thinks.

And again we go back to fans having diverse opinions. In the end, you can't get around the artist exercising independent judgment.

They said that fans were making a big deal over Super's 5th episode.

That isn't disrespectful. It could be an honest assessment. They think the fans are making too big of a deal. It's a bad episode. So what? They produce close to 50 episodes per year. Statistically, not all of them will be gems. In American TV, it's a general rule that in any season, a good average is 7 great episodes, 7 okay episodes, and 7 bad episodes.

[JulieYBM]

No. Art is only interesting because the creator likes what they are creating. Telling artists how to operate and what to make gets in the way of that. Kami to Kami was fun because Toriyama Akira was having fun. Dragon Ball Super Episode #4 and Episode #16 were fun because Toma Seizou and Iseki Shuu'ichi were having fun.

[ABED]

There are RARE occasions where test audiences improved a movie from the original intent like the ending of the movie "Dodgeball", but that's once again very rare.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Well Toriyama kinda did by doing Resurrection F and now with return of Mirai Trunks.

- Travis

[Soppa Saia People]

There are RARE occasions where test audiences improved a movie from the original intent like the ending of the movie "Dodgeball", but that's once again very rare.

Huh ?
Anyway no don't, this fandom is so split that if you do listen to one side, the other one will be upset and so on.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Toriyama already ruined dragon after he started catering more to infants and pre schooled kids instead of to actual fans.

Toriyama and Toei have made it very clear that they're in this for the $$$ and the $$$ only which is why they're putting in the bare minimum effort into Super.

Artistic quality ? that died alongside the manga in 1995 and the #1 and only focus right now is selling toys and cards.

Would you work on something without receiving absolutely nothing in exchange?

[PsionicWarrior]

ABED

You need to grasp the difference between subjective opinions from random people and constructive criticism from long time fans who have certain expectations for a 30+ years old series. Not everything is black or white, and dismissing entirely what millions of watchers think would be just as entitled as a fan wanting everything his way no matter what. And yes, fans have the right to say something if they feel so, since they pay for a product, this is how industry works, it goes both ways, and feedback is valuable even if some of it can be disputable.

[MozillaVulpix]

Well, with Future Trunks returning and an evil Goku in the same arc, it definitely feels like they were listening to the fans. Same with having Vegeta get SSGSS, which was almost like him getting SSJ3. And while Vegeta's new power didn't particularly lead to a good pay-off, only time will tell if this new arc will lead to something great. If it does, maybe I'll think twice about dismissing ideas on the concept alone.

[ABED]

There are RARE occasions where test audiences improved a movie from the original intent like the ending of the movie "Dodgeball", but that's once again very rare.

Huh ?
Anyway no don't, this fandom is so split that if you do listen to one side, the other one will be upset and so on.

I don't know if he was joking, but in the commentary, the director said the original ending was to have Ben Stiller's character win the tournament. On the DVD, the alt ending is literally Stiller hitting Vince Vaughn's character in the face and then fade to black. It's tonally out of touch with the actual movie.

You need to grasp the difference between subjective opinions from random people and constructive criticism from long time fans who have certain expectations for a 30+ years old series. Not everything is black or white, and dismissing entirely what millions of watchers think would be just as entitled as a fan wanting everything his way no matter what. And yes, fans have the right to say something if they feel so, since they pay for a product, this is how industry works, it goes both ways, and feedback is valuable even if some of it can be disputable.

Those constructive criticisms are still subjective opinions and you still run into the issue of those constructive criticisms being diverse and contradictory just through the sheer number of fans. Fans do have a right to say whatever they want, but they don't have a right to demand to be listened to just because they patronized something. And I know that's confusing. I know what I want to say in essence but I'm not sure exactly how to put it in writing.

I know how business works. What have I said that makes you think I don't understand feedback isn't valuable?

[sintzu]

Toriyama already ruined dragon after he started catering more to infants and pre schooled kids instead of to actual fans.

Toriyama and Toei have made it very clear that they're in this for the $$$ and the $$$ only which is why they're putting in the bare minimum effort into Super.

Artistic quality ? that died alongside the manga in 1995 and the #1 and only focus right now is selling toys and cards.

Would you work on something without receiving absolutely nothing in exchange ?

You'd know that's not what I was saying if you read past the 1st $$$ signs.

[Luso Saiyan]

Should Toei or Toriyama or just writers in general listen to the fans? I say no.

Toei? I don't care. Toriyama? Definitely not. That's cheap. It's not the role of fandom to be part of the creative process, be it Dragon Ball or any other work.

[Kamiccolo9]

Of course not. The fanbase are a bunch of idiots who will never agree on what the best course is.

It's the author's story. He or she understands it on a deeper level than any fan will.

Us "idiots" are the reason Toriyama and Toei's workers aren't living under a bridge. I'm not saying they have to do everything we tell them to but they should at least communicate with us and take popular criticisms seriously.

Super's 5th episode was criticized by nearly everyone yet Toei said it wasn't that bad and we were making a big deal out of nothing so are you saying that they're right and everyone else is wrong about its quality ?

So what you're saying is that the only reason fans shouldn't contribute to Super's story is because it's Toriyama's ? what if the exact same story was written by someone else, then would you be OK with fans demanding it to change certain things ?

You deliberately misquoted me, taking my entire statement out of context.

The fanbase as a whole has only one role as far as far as feedback goes: paying or not paying. Because, as a whole, the fanbase is incapable of agreeing on anything. Look at this very thread. As ABED was saying, entertainment is not a charity. You are not being mistreated. If you disapprove of the direction of the series, don't support it. Why should Toriyama and Toei care about the whinings of a bunch of adolescents on the internet, while they continue to buy their products anyway? Why should they care about what the non-Japanese fanbase think at all, for that matter? You're all watching the show illegally!

You seem to think that your role as a fan gives you some moral high ground to demand better quality. It doesn't. Without Toriyama, you wouldn't have material to be a fan of. He's the one who made the story. He doesn't owe you anything; you didn't donate your money, you bought a product he created.

[sintzu]

You seem to think that your role as a fan gives you some moral high ground to demand better quality.

That's exactly what it means, if I'm supporting something then I want it to be as good as possible.

Take a video game for example, if you're paying 60$ for it then you're going to demand the developer to make sure it runs at the best frame rate, on the highest resolution and has as few bugs and glitches as possible.

If you pay 15$ for a movie ticket then you'll demand the actors to put all they have in it and the special affects be as good as possible.

If you buy a car you're going to demand it to run properly & have a good AC among other things.

What makes Toriyama and Toei so special that they can put out a mediocre product and fans who've supported the franchise for 10+ years can't complain or demand it to be better ?