Bullza wrote:Yeah and Hit's level of Ki initially was at a level high enough to have little trouble against SSJB Vegeta and have a more even fight with SSJ Goku and then started to lose the upper hand when Goku turned into a SSJG. That level that he was at allowed him to withstand punches from SSJG Goku but it was also at a level that Base Goku could hurt him as well. Then he powered up.
If Hit at his supressed level was still enough for him to take those attacks and still keep going then it should be a level vastly above the likes that Base Goku should ever be to be able to hurt him if he's just at regular levels.
SSG Goku was most likely holding back against the suppressed Hit, since Goku knew that Hit was holding back & wouldn't want to beat him before he showed his true power. He even gave up the match because he realized that Hit couldn't use his true power due to the tournament rules.
He may have changed his mind. He may just be Toyotaro's inclusion but the interview where Toriyama said that was for the Battle of Gods movie which did have Goku needing to become SSJG again to stop his earth blowing up.
That's what I'm saying. He changed his mind & retconned Goku from absorbing the power of SSG, so SSG is now useful once again. Goku didn't really need SSG, since it didn't change his power drastically. The reason Goku stopped it was because he gave his all, and the reason he transformed was to show us that Goku no longer needs the ritual to go SSG. Toriyama confirmed in his interview that Goku doesn't need SSG anymore because he absorbed the power of SSG. But the manga shows that Goku didn't absorb the power of SSG, and that Goku does need SSG now.
Yeah but even though those two might be weaker than Frost perhaps they could have made him more tired than what Piccolo did and without having to fight defensively.
That's my point. If base Goku & Vegeta are stronger than Piccolo, they have to at least be close to him in power.
Oh right I see what you mean and that's a good point but that 6/10/15 scale is going by movie information
Now you are just picking what you like. You can't say "this is from the movies, nothing contradicts it but it may not be true" (about 6/10/15 numbers), and then say "this is from the movies, it is contradicted by the manga but it has to be true somehow because it's in the movies" (about Goku absorbing the SSG power).
Toriyama's recent comment might mean that he's just retconned Beerus' power anyway if he wants to keep him above them while still making Goku and Vegeta stronger.
Goku & Vegeta no longer grow monstrously stronger through their training, it's been shown in the original manga, and it was even referenced in the Super anime.
Well that has at least been clarified by several other things from the movies to the anime to promotional material to games etc.
But not in the Super manga, which has its own separate continuity.
The two base theory is just that, a theory.
It's officially a thing. It's just not a hard fact, due to it being a video-game only thing so far.
But it doesn't seem to be a thing in either the manga, the anime, or the movies so far. But if you want to smash the movies & the manga together, the 2 base theory is the only explanation that I can think of to make them fit.
And that's because there isn't an enormous gap between the two forms. Which is what was established in Battle of Gods and then makes it sync up just fine with what happened in the Resurrection F movie and also with the Super anime which is exactly what it should be doing.
The movie shows that there is an insignificant difference between base, SS, and SSG. The manga shows that there is a significant difference between base, SS, and SSG. That's a fact, so we have a contradiction.
ekrolo2 wrote:Is there anything supporting the existence of Chou Super Saiyan? The hypothetical Super Saiyan form that's been so mastered that it gives you a bigger boost than Super Saiyan 3?
No, it's a misinterpretation of Toriyama's comment about Goku abandoning SS2 & SS3. What he meant was that by training in base & SS, he can have greater training gains because he doesn't have his stamina drained in these forms, while SS2 & SS3 drain his stamina and hold him back. Furthermore, in the manga continuity, Goku has even more powerful transformations now (SSG & SSB) that don't drain his stamina (SSB only drains it if you transform multiple times), so SS2 & SS3 are now useless. In the movie continuity, Goku has the SSG power in his base form, and his SSB form, which is an upgraded form of regular SS, gives him a less than x2 boost. So, transforming into SS2 & SS3 on top of that would also give him less than x2 boost + ki drain, which would eventually make him weaker than his SSB form (like what happened with Golden Freeza).
Akira Toriyama wrote:Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Because that's where he is at the EOZ
Going exclusively by the original manga, there is no indication of such a thing.
RandomGuy96 wrote:All of them are the closest to Toriyama's vision, they should be decently consistent with each other.
But they are not consistent with each other. The movies show that base Goku absorbed the power of SSG & made it his own, which turned SS & SSG useless, and with SSB, he became stronger, but less than x2 stronger. The manga makes no mention of Goku absorbing any power, still has Piccolo between base & SS Goku like he was since the Cell Games (though we can assume that base Goku & Vegeta may be a little stronger than Piccolo, the manga doesn't give any indication to assume such a thing), has SSB Goku over x10 stronger than SS Goku, and has SSG useful once again. It also skipped the FnF arc, so base Goku's feats from the movie are not in the manga.
