Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

If Goku does just use Super Saiyan against Black then it'll be a good way to see exactly how Goku and Trunks compare.

I think the NEP had SSJ2 Goku, as well as the episode 50 bio saying Black wasn't taking the fight seriously.

Doesn't really matter to me since either way, it's all Super Logic. Just like GT had GT Logic.

Can you direct me to where it says Black wasn't taking it seriously? I don't remember seeing that.

[dbzfan7]

If Goku does just use Super Saiyan against Black then it'll be a good way to see exactly how Goku and Trunks compare.

I think the NEP had SSJ2 Goku, as well as the episode 50 bio saying Black wasn't taking the fight seriously.

Doesn't really matter to me since either way, it's all Super Logic. Just like GT had GT Logic.

Can you direct me to where it says Black wasn't taking it seriously? I don't remember seeing that.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/746555783567933440

[buutenks]

Well there are wome inconsistencies throughout super. Most likely due to toriyama's work clashing with toei's.

[TheMikado]

I have to say one thing that's not making sense is that everyone saying Goku is holding back. Based on his ROF base he would need to be less than 1% of his power just to not kill Trunks.Yet Trunks is comparing this ultra surpressed form of Goku to Black and Gokus suddenly super excited to fight him. That sounds really stupid to me. Especially without even showing SSB. Either Goku was at his full SSJ vs Trinks or he was ultra surpressed 1%. The narrative is such that there's no other way to look at it.

[RandomGuy96]

Don't feel like reading the last five pages. Can someone give me a quick rundown? What's with this talk of SS3 Goku and Dabra? Did Super's power scaling get even crazier?

[dbzfan7]

Don't feel like reading the last five pages. Can someone give me a quick rundown? What's with this talk of SS3 Goku and Dabra?

-Trunks beat Dabura and Babidi of the future. It's once again speculation if he was SSJ or SSJ2
-Boo never appeared in the Future because of this
-Trunks is an SSJ2 when he fights Goku, who also supposedly is SSJ2 (But has SSJ hair for some reason even though he has lightning)
-Goku goes SSJ3 to easily block Trunks and One Shot him.
-Goku is impressed by Trunks getting so strong on his own.
-Trunks says Goku Black is at least as strong as SSJ3 or stronger.
-Episode 50 preview has SSJ2 Goku fight Black.
-Bio of 50 says Black doesn't take the fight seriously.

I think that covers it.

[RandomGuy96]

Don't feel like reading the last five pages. Can someone give me a quick rundown? What's with this talk of SS3 Goku and Dabra?

-Trunks beat Dabura and Babidi of the future. It's once again speculation if he was SSJ or SSJ2
-Boo never appeared in the Future because of this
-Trunks is an SSJ2 when he fights Goku, who also supposedly is SSJ2 (But has SSJ hair for some reason even though he has lightning)
-Goku goes SSJ3 to easily block Trunks and One Shot him.
-Goku is impressed by Trunks getting so strong on his own.
-Trunks says Goku Black is at least as strong as SSJ3 or stronger.
-Episode 50 preview has SSJ2 Goku fight Black.
-Bio of 50 says Black doesn't take the fight seriously.

I think that covers it.

-Is it ever indicated that Trunks had any trouble beating Dabra?
-When did he beat Dabra? Like how does the timeline work here. Dabra and Babidi already should have passed over Earth when he was a kid.
-Does SS2 Trunks give SS2 Goku any trouble? That seems to be the implication if he needs SS3 to end the fight. Also does this mean SS2 Trunks > SS Goku, and therefore SS/SS2 Trunks are both stronger than base Goku?
-Why the heck can he still use SS2 and SS3, are they supposed to be as strong as pre-god SS forms? Or do they just give the normal boosts to SS, which gives the normal boosts to base, which is super strong, meaning base Goku = 1/400 SSG/SSB Goku at the absolute maximum?

[Brettjr25]

What are you guys talking about? Even before the summary appeared you can clearly hear goku say super saiyajin 2 when Trunks transforms and goku says hell go ss2. Which had to be the case since he later wemt ss3.

Anyway, i was never a fan of it but i think this proves the 2 base theory. We have goku > ss > ss2 > ss3> goku w/god power > goku ss w/ god power > ssb goku...

I dont understand.. faints

[TheMikado]

What are you guys talking about? Even before the summary appeared you can clearly hear goku say super saiyajin 2 when Trunks transforms and goku says hell go ss2. Which had to be the case since he later wemt ss3.

Anyway, i was never a fan of it but i think this proves the 2 base theory. We have goku > ss > ss2 > ss3> goku w/god power > goku ss w/ god power > ssb goku...

I dont understand.. faints

I would agree with you and did until the manga. Basically no media at all states there are two bases. Furthermore the manga places the SSG transformation where I would have expected the 2nd base to be. Basically the manga has the same structure but replaces 2nd base with permanent SSG. The mang at least acknowledges the hole and attempts to fill it with that form which is fine but that form in that way doesn't exist in Super!

[dbzfan7]

Don't feel like reading the last five pages. Can someone give me a quick rundown? What's with this talk of SS3 Goku and Dabra?

-Trunks beat Dabura and Babidi of the future. It's once again speculation if he was SSJ or SSJ2
-Boo never appeared in the Future because of this
-Trunks is an SSJ2 when he fights Goku, who also supposedly is SSJ2 (But has SSJ hair for some reason even though he has lightning)
-Goku goes SSJ3 to easily block Trunks and One Shot him.
-Goku is impressed by Trunks getting so strong on his own.
-Trunks says Goku Black is at least as strong as SSJ3 or stronger.
-Episode 50 preview has SSJ2 Goku fight Black.
-Bio of 50 says Black doesn't take the fight seriously.

I think that covers it.

-Is it ever indicated that Trunks had any trouble beating Dabra?
-When did he beat Dabra? Like how does the timeline work here. Dabra and Babidi already should have passed over Earth when he was a kid.
-Does SS2 Trunks give SS2 Goku any trouble? That seems to be the implication if he needs SS3 to end the fight. Also does this mean SS2 Trunks > SS Goku, and therefore SS/SS2 Trunks are both stronger than base Goku?
-Why the heck can he still use SS2 and SS3, are they supposed to be as strong as pre-god SS forms? Or do they just give the normal boosts to SS, which gives the normal boosts to base, which is super strong, meaning base Goku = 1/400 SSG/SSB Goku at the absolute maximum?

-Yes. It was a difficult fighting according to the summary we just got.
-I don't know. No time frame I think was given. He had blue hair though.
-Somewhat. Seemed SSJ2 Goku was stronger, just not enough to one shot, which SSJ3 did. You should see for yourself.
-I dunno, come to your own conclusion I suppose.

[Khin]

I never saw any problem with Trunks beating Dabra. He is at the very least around Suppressed PC Cell [That fought Goku] tier in my book. Which Trunks can easily surpass in around 5 years even with logical gains. Considering Goku was amazed by Trunks' gains, i guess he really did became ridiculously stronger than before.

[Araki]

-Why the heck can he still use SS2 and SS3

Why would he lose them? I don't get this logic, they're not SSG.
It wouldn't make much sense for Goku to use SS3, in particular, in an actual fight, but that wasn't the case, as he was just showing Trunks there was a level above 2.

The thing with power levels in this fanbase is that people tend to complicate things that actually aren't supposed to be that way...

[TheMikado]

I never saw any problem with Trunks beating Dabra. He is at the very least around Suppressed PC Cell [That fought Goku] tier in my book. Which Trunks can easily surpass in around 5 years even with logical gains. Considering Goku was amazed by Trunks' gains, i guess he really did became ridiculously stronger than before.

The problem is whether there SSJ forms were actually a match or close in power because it would also mean their bases are similar. The reason is because Goku and Vegeta have been training far longer/harder more experience and only made the gains they did in their base after God level training. For Trubks to be similar to Goku in SSJ would mean their bases are similar which would only make sense if Trunksvalso got God trainihg,

[ZombieVito]

For Trunks to beat Dabra with just Super Saiyan is damn impressive and by himself no less.

[Araki]

The problem is whether there SSJ forms were actually a match or close in power because it would also mean their bases are similar. The reason is because Goku and Vegeta have been training far longer/harder more experience and only made the gains they did in their base after God level training. For Trubks to be similar to Goku in SSJ would mean their bases are similar which would only make sense if Trunksvalso got God trainihg,

Goku holding back on his punch doesn't mean he was also holding back his Ki, if he wanted Trunks to sense it. Those are two different things.
Trunks didn't need to be obliterated to realize where Goku's level stands. Nothing is said about them being close in power, you're the one stating all of that.

[Khin]

The problem is whether there SSJ forms were actually a match or close in power because it would also mean their bases are similar. The reason is because Goku and Vegeta have been training far longer/harder more experience and only made the gains they did in their base after God level training. For Trubks to be similar to Goku in SSJ would mean their bases are similar which would only make sense if Trunksvalso got God trainihg,

Because Trunks' potential is way higher than Goku or Vegeta ? If guys like Freeza and Tagoma can get ridiculously stronger in a short span of time, then i see no reason why Trunks can't get that much stronger in 9 years. Piccolo jumped several tiers by training for 8 months. Big gains are nothing new in Super, that i wasn't even surprised by it when i read the summary. So i wouldn't have a hard time putting Trunks at high Buu Arc tier. Especially seeing how Goku was amazed by how much he got stronger, which means it exceeds what he expected. And a good implication that he indeed got ridiculously stronger than before.

I haven't watched the episode yet. But i'm 100% sure they aren't equals.

[Darkron2151]

I'm just gonna go with Base through SSJ3 still being in the pre-god range of power, and the "god-base"/SSGSS being it's own pool of power by incorporating the power of SSG (I guess the two base theory, but whatever). If it weren't like that and SSJ2 Trunks is even any sort of a match for SSJ2 present Goku, then that would put that Trunks 100x (if using regular multiplier) than SSJ3 Gotenks. That would probably put SSJ Trunks from at least a year ago and Dabra at around 50x (at most) stronger than that same Gotenks too (if everything from Copy-Vegeta is to be regarded).

[RandomGuy96]

Does Trunks' statement that Goku is almost as strong as Black indicate:

Base Black > SS3 Goku?

Or

Base Black >= Base Goku >>> SS2 Trunks?

[TheMikado]

The problem is whether there SSJ forms were actually a match or close in power because it would also mean their bases are similar. The reason is because Goku and Vegeta have been training far longer/harder more experience and only made the gains they did in their base after God level training. For Trubks to be similar to Goku in SSJ would mean their bases are similar which would only make sense if Trunksvalso got God trainihg,

Goku holding back on his punch doesn't mean he was also holding back his Ki, if he wanted Trunks to sense it. Those are two different things.
Trunks didn't need to be obliterated to realize where Goku's level stands. Nothing is said about them being close in power, you're the one stating all of that.

I don't think they are close in power at all but there are other people in here that do. My point is the the storywriting is so ambiguous and poorly writing that people can which the same thing and have completely different understanding the the scenario. And yes that happens but not as unintentionally and consistently as in this series. You have people that think Goku powered down his punches to Trunks level while you have other thinking Trunks powered up to Gokus level. Is should not be this hard for a viewer to understand.

[Khin]

Why would Goku need to punch Trunks with all his power when all Trunks need to do is sense his Ki ? The main point of that little sparring match is for Goku to know how strong Black is. Since Trunks can't probably sense God ki, it makes sense why Goku didn't turn SSB and went with the second stronger instead [SS3]. So Goku turned SS3 not because he would lose to Trunks in the fight, but to use his highest sensible ki for Trunks to compare to Black's.