Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Vados_chan]

Dabura was weaker than a rusty Gohan in the manga iirc so it's no big feat

And Black at his weakest is SSJ3 tier?

[RandomGuy96]

Why would Goku need to punch Trunks with all his power when all Trunks need to do is sense his Ki ? The main point of that little sparring match is for Goku to know how strong Black is

The whole point of a sparring match is to spar. If he was strong enough to let Trunks punch him in the face all day to no effect, there wouldn't have been a sparring match. He would have just powered up and asked Trunks to sense his ki.

Dabura was weaker than a rusty Gohan in the manga iirc so it's no big feat

SS Gohan >= Dabra ~ SS Trunks > Base Goku > 4th form Freeza >>>>> 1st form Freeza >>>>>> SS Gohan

Also Dabra > SS3 Gotenks.

[Doctor.]

Okay, at this point I'm just going with the two base theory too even though it's pretty stupid and unecessary because this makes no goddamn sense.

[RandomGuy96]

Anyway, one more for the two-base/ base forms are as strong as needed theory in the anime:

Let's preface something:

* According to Vegeta, Trunks and Goten on their own aren't strong enough to take part. The logical consequence of the phrase is that Gotenks would be strong enough to take part in the tournament. (Mr. Buu, Gotenks and Piccolo > Goten and Trunks)
* According to Vegeta, Base Cabbe is so weak he shouldn't have even bothered to take part in the tournament = Base Cabbe is weaker than all of the people above whom Vegeta deems strong enough to be in the tourney.

Also, at no point does Vegeta state that the level of the fighters until Cabbe surpassed his expectations (on the contrary, he's basically as unimpressed as ever).

This should prove what? That at least SS3 Gotenks is stronger than Base Cabbe in Vegeta's eyes. Buuut, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is weaker than Base Vegeta and by a good margin. Vegeta has seen Gotenks fight six months ago, and doesn't remark that Gotenks has gotten abnormally weaker in his fight with Copy-Vegeta.

Also, let's assume Base Cabbe is around Super Saiyan-holy moley- God Goku because he can keep it up with the Base Saiyans and the Base Saiyans are as strong as the God form. Wouldn't it be a silly choice of words to say it to someone who is that strong?
Still the anime, next episode preview: Trunks going Super Saiyan and Goku turning Super Saiyan to stop him.

In short, after weighing both the manga and the anime feats and statements, to me it still looks like everyone minus Hit is on Z levels and that Base Goku and Vegeta aren't god tier during the tournament.

Just noticed this. Where does Vegeta say that Cabba is so weak that he shouldn't even have bothered to enter? If that's true, wouldn't that indicate Mr. Buu is at least a lot stronger than Cabba and Botamo, since Vegeta and Goku both obviously thought he could compete?

[Xeztin]

Dabura was weaker than a rusty Gohan in the manga iirc so it's no big feat

And Black at his weakest is SSJ3 tier?

Trunks said every time they fight Black get's stronger and stronger. If he's at SSJ3 tier now for example, he'll probably hit God tier after fighting Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I do think Trunks is very powerful now.

Goku compliments Trunks getting very strong alone, even Beerus compliments him too. Don't you guys remember than in just 3 years Trunks went from under base Gohan (using Super Saiyan) to surpassing Super Saiyan Gohan?

Prior to Black's appearance he already defeated a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter with just regular Super Saiyan. It's not really that unbelievable.

[dbzfan7]

Okay, at this point I'm just going with the two base theory too even though it's pretty stupid and unecessary because this makes no goddamn sense.

Welcome to Dragon Ball Super. Enjoy your stay and try to keep your head .

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I do think Trunks is very powerful now.

Goku compliments Trunks getting very strong alone, even Beerus compliments him too. Don't you guys remember than in just 3 years Trunks went from under base Gohan (using Super Saiyan) to surpassing Super Saiyan Gohan?

Prior to Black's appearance he already defeated a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter with just regular Super Saiyan. It's not really that unbelievable.

Dabra not looking like a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter now.

[Noah]

Well, I'll just quote myself:

- Trunks is revelead to transform into a SSJ2? Did he used against Dabura or Black? Why did Goku transformed into a SSJ2 as well? He really need to be on pair with Trunks considering he has God Ki in his base? This is mindblowing!

[Xeztin]

Okay, at this point I'm just going with the two base theory too even though it's pretty stupid and unecessary because this makes no goddamn sense.

Are you referring to Goku using SSJ 1-3 again? I don't know if i'd call it a two base theory, but I do believe that Goku can turn his God ki on and off. If we take the manga into account here, turning it on in his base gives us SSG, and the SSG acts as a base so that Goku can go Super Saiyan into Blue. That makes sense of the whole, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan right? I suppose that would be called the 2 base theory, but SSG is it's own form.

[Khin]

Except in the anime. The Super Saiyan God vanished and Goku was only able to absorb the power. Goku turning SSG again only makes sense because Goku never absorbed the SSG power in the manga.

I don't have any issue putting Trunks above Gotenks. If Trunks can become over 50x stronger in 3 years after he achieved Super Saiyan, then he surely could also become way stronger in about 9 years after he achieved Super Saiyan 2.

[HeroR]

Thinking about it, Goku using Super Saiyan 3 to gauge how strong Black is makes sense. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses god ki, Trunks wouldn't be able to sense it, so couldn't tell Goku how it compared to Black. So Goku went to his highest form that Trunks can sense to get a reading on Black's power.

[Vados_chan]

I do think Trunks is very powerful now.

Goku compliments Trunks getting very strong alone, even Beerus compliments him too. Don't you guys remember than in just 3 years Trunks went from under base Gohan (using Super Saiyan) to surpassing Super Saiyan Gohan?

Prior to Black's appearance he already defeated a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter with just regular Super Saiyan. It's not really that unbelievable.

Dabra not looking like a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter now.

Pretty sure he never was, he was around Perfect Cell level.

[LowRyder2005]

Anyway, one more for the two-base/ base forms are as strong as needed theory in the anime:

Let's preface something:

* According to Vegeta, Trunks and Goten on their own aren't strong enough to take part. The logical consequence of the phrase is that Gotenks would be strong enough to take part in the tournament. (Mr. Buu, Gotenks and Piccolo > Goten and Trunks)
* According to Vegeta, Base Cabbe is so weak he shouldn't have even bothered to take part in the tournament = Base Cabbe is weaker than all of the people above whom Vegeta deems strong enough to be in the tourney.

Also, at no point does Vegeta state that the level of the fighters until Cabbe surpassed his expectations (on the contrary, he's basically as unimpressed as ever).

This should prove what? That at least SS3 Gotenks is stronger than Base Cabbe in Vegeta's eyes. Buuut, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is weaker than Base Vegeta and by a good margin. Vegeta has seen Gotenks fight six months ago, and doesn't remark that Gotenks has gotten abnormally weaker in his fight with Copy-Vegeta.

Also, let's assume Base Cabbe is around Super Saiyan-holy moley- God Goku because he can keep it up with the Base Saiyans and the Base Saiyans are as strong as the God form. Wouldn't it be a silly choice of words to say it to someone who is that strong?
Still the anime, next episode preview: Trunks going Super Saiyan and Goku turning Super Saiyan to stop him.

In short, after weighing both the manga and the anime feats and statements, to me it still looks like everyone minus Hit is on Z levels and that Base Goku and Vegeta aren't god tier during the tournament.

Just noticed this. Where does Vegeta say that Cabba is so weak that he shouldn't even have bothered to enter? If that's true, wouldn't that indicate Mr. Buu is at least a lot stronger than Cabba and Botamo, since Vegeta and Goku both obviously thought he could compete?

The exact quote is:

"With that level of power, how could you think about fighting in this tournament?!"

It's when Super Saiyan Vegeta is trashing Base Cabbe around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAKdAYnHXw

You can see it at 3.49.

[LowRyder2005]

Thinking about it, Goku using Super Saiyan 3 to gauge how strong Black is makes sense. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses god ki, Trunks wouldn't be able to sense it, so couldn't tell Goku how it compared to Black. So Goku went to his highest form that Trunks can sense to get a reading on Black's power.

This in turn would suggest that neither SS3 Goku or Trunks are God tier, however.

[HeroR]

Thinking about it, Goku using Super Saiyan 3 to gauge how strong Black is makes sense. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses god ki, Trunks wouldn't be able to sense it, so couldn't tell Goku how it compared to Black. So Goku went to his highest form that Trunks can sense to get a reading on Black's power.

This in turn would suggest that neither SS3 Goku or Trunks are God tier, however.

How you figure? And god-level is vague since the Kais are gods too and the strongest Supreme Kai was about as strong as Kid Buu. Also, we know Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have god ki, while Goku's base form does not. His Super Saiyan form also have no god ki, so it can be sense by normal people. So, Future Trunks can sense Goku up to Super Saiyan 3, but he cannot comprehend Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The exact quote is:

"With that level of power, how could you think about fighting in this tournament?!"

It's when Super Saiyan Vegeta is trashing Base Cabbe around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAKdAYnHXw

You can see it at 3.49.

Isn't this all apart of Vegeta's act to get a rise out of Cabba, though? He had no qualms saying they were equal in Base just a short while before.

[Chiki]

Thinking about it, Goku using Super Saiyan 3 to gauge how strong Black is makes sense. Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses god ki, Trunks wouldn't be able to sense it, so couldn't tell Goku how it compared to Black. So Goku went to his highest form that Trunks can sense to get a reading on Black's power.

This in turn would suggest that neither SS3 Goku or Trunks are God tier, however.

How you figure? And god-level is vague since the Kais are gods too and the strongest Supreme Kai was about as strong as Kid Buu. Also, we know Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have god ki, while Goku's base form does not. His Super Saiyan form also have no god ki, so it can be sense by normal people. So, Future Trunks can sense Goku up to Super Saiyan 3, but he cannot comprehend Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Because, obviously, if Vegeta couldn't hit anywhere near SSG level during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Buu arc, then Trunks hasn't achieved godly ki! Lol.

Also it was confirmed this ep that Black IS actually weak. That's why his ki can be sensed. https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/746861280481284097 He gets stronger as he gets hit. He was probably even below SSJ Trunks level at first, and after a few fights he became stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The only way he could even be challenging for Goku and Vegeta at this point is if he can achieve godly ki by fighting SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta/Base-SSG Goku and Base-SSG Vegeta.

It's kinda funny how some people are so desperate to deny the truth of the two base theory that some people actually think that Trunks obtained SSG power by training after leaving. That's so ridiculous considering that neither Vegeta nor Goku were able to achieve it in 7 years between the Cell Games and the Buu arc.

It has been completely clarified in the story, period, that you can only achieve SSG power with the right kind of training (training with Whis to control your ki). Trunks using the gravity machine or training alone simply would not allow him to access SSG power. I'm pretty sure that anyone who says otherwise has forgotten the past 48 episodes of Super and probably the entire Z series.

Anyway, now that the two base theory has been confirmed for most, why do you guys think Goku isn't using SSG power at all for Black?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Black having Chi that can be sensed doesn't mean he's weak. The only reason why Gods can't be sensed is because their Chi is entirely different from others. Kaioshin and Kibito couldn't be sensed at any poin by the others during the Boo saga, but we know for a fact both are weaker than Super Saiyans.

[Chiki]

Black having Chi that can be sensed doesn't mean he's weak. The only reason why Gods can't be sensed is because their Chi is entirely different from others. Kaioshin and Kibito couldn't be sensed at any poin by the others during the Boo saga, but we know for a fact both are weaker than Super Saiyans.

That's not why I said he's weak. It's stated this ep that he got stronger as he and Trunks fought, so obviously he was weak at first.

Some people, including me, thought he'd be like Beerus with ki that can't be sensed. But I guess not.