Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Black having Chi that can be sensed doesn't mean he's weak. The only reason why Gods can't be sensed is because their Chi is entirely different from others. Kaioshin and Kibito couldn't be sensed at any poin by the others during the Boo saga, but we know for a fact both are weaker than Super Saiyans.

Thank you. Having god ki doesn't mean you're super strong, just as not having god ki means you're weak. Hit didn't have god ki and destroyed Vegeta who had god ki. Golden Freeza didn't have god ki and beat Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku around until his power tanked. And course, Goku and Vegeta's bases are stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks and it can be sense too as seen when they fought Freeza's final form. It also isn't odd that they couldn't achieve god ki in the seven years in the Cell Saga since they didn't even know such ki existed until they met Beerus since Goku was confused about why he could sense him.

Also, that is Trunks' assumption. It could just as easily be that Black just rise his power as his fights. If he was so weak as you think, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks should have easily killed him.

There is no two base theory, and I don't know how this episode supposedly proves it.

[Alruneia]

There is no two base theory, and I don't know how this episode supposedly proves it.

Come now. There is definitely a two base theory. Whether it's the correct explanation or not is one thing, but you can't deny the theory's existence.

I don't think we should use the Goku vs Future Trunks fight in Episode 49 as a very serious indicator of power. It looked to me like Future Trunks was serious, but Goku was majorly holding back just to see how strong Future Trunks was. ("Oh, that's Super Saiyan 2! Yeah, I can do that too." [transforms]) I don't speak Japanese, though, so maybe I'm totally missing out and Goku says that they're equal or something. I barely even picked up "Supa Saiya-jin Tsu". If I didn't, I'd think they were SSJ1s because of art issues, but this isn't the thread for that.

[LowRyder2005]

The exact quote is:

"With that level of power, how could you think about fighting in this tournament?!"

It's when Super Saiyan Vegeta is trashing Base Cabbe around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAKdAYnHXw

You can see it at 3.49.

Isn't this all apart of Vegeta's act to get a rise out of Cabba, though? He had no qualms saying they were equal in Base just a short while before.

You'd have to either you disregard one or the other as a bluff, or you'd have to think that Vegeta sees everyone in Base as pitifully weak.
Still, I feel compelled to stress again that it would kind of not make sense at all if Vegeta was facing a God tier (going by the Base = SSG) opponent even as a bluff, because his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue wouldn't be much distant from his base. It could work with the Base = 1/50 of SSG theory.

However, the "Base Vegeta was actually stronger than Base Cabbe" is strenghtened by what happens next, when Vegeta's SS is revealed to be far stronger than Cabbe's SS.
With today, we have got further indications that the forms more or less work as they did back in Z through Goku's and Trunks' confrontation with the two being almost equal regardless of Goku's training (so it goes back full circle to the "Goku turns God ki on/off argument" if one wanted to argue that Vegeta's SS could suddenly become vastly stronger than Cabbe's).

[LowRyder2005]

There is no two base theory, and I don't know how this episode supposedly proves it.

Come now. There is definitely a two base theory. Whether it's the correct explanation or not is one thing, but you can't deny the theory's existence.

I don't think we should use the Goku vs Future Trunks fight in Episode 49 as a very serious indicator of power. It looked to me like Future Trunks was serious, but Goku was majorly holding back just to see how strong Future Trunks was. ("Oh, that's Super Saiyan 2! Yeah, I can do that too." [transforms]) I don't speak Japanese, though, so maybe I'm totally missing out and Goku says that they're equal or something. I barely even picked up "Supa Saiya-jin Tsu". If I didn't, I'd think they were SSJ1s because of art issues, but this isn't the thread for that.

The one crucial problem is that Goku would have no need to even tap into his Super Saiyan power if you follow a theory such as Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God (which was suggested during the BOG Arc).

You'd be forced to conclude either that:

A. Gotenks SS3 in Super is actually Freeza/ Low-Android Arc tier.
B. SS2 Trunks became more than 100 times stronger than Gotenks SS3 (who, even in the anime continuity, shouldn't be that far off from Super Saiyan 3 BOG Goku) and/or that he could obtain results comparable to Whis' training by training on his own in the future.

That being said, is there any timeframe given between Dabra's death and Future Trunks' trip to the past? I mean, if it happens a whoppin' 17 years before Black arrives - alas, concurrently to the Buu Arc in the main timeframe - it could be a little more feasible for Trunks to at least surpass the Gotenks from the main timeline, questionable writing aside.

[Chiki]

Also, that is Trunks' assumption. It could just as easily be that Black just rise his power as his fights. If he was so weak as you think, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks should have easily killed him.

Why would have Trunks easily killed him? It seems that the entire purpose of Black's power is that, as he takes hits from a stronger opponent, he gets stronger himself. That's how Trunks was able to catch Black off guard after he killed Mai.

You'd have to either you disregard one or the other as a bluff, or you'd have to think that Vegeta sees everyone in Base as pitifully weak.
Still, I feel compelled to stress again that it would kind of not make sense at all if Vegeta was facing a God tier (going by the Base = SSG) opponent even as a bluff, because his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue wouldn't be much distant from his base. It could work with the Base = 1/50 of SSG theory.

However, the "Base Vegeta was actually stronger than Base Cabbe" is strenghtened by what happens next, when Vegeta's SS is revealed to be far stronger than Cabbe's SS.
With today, we have got further indications that the forms more or less work as they did back in Z through Goku's and Trunks' confrontation with the two being almost equal regardless of Goku's training (so it goes back full circle to the "Goku turns God ki on/off argument" if one wanted to argue that Vegeta's SS could suddenly become vastly stronger than Cabbe's).

I agree with everything else you said apart from Goku turning Super Saiyan with SSG power in base. I think that's what SSB is supposed to be (SS with SSG) so that should be impossible. The Beerus fight is an exception since he hadn't mastered it yet.

[HeroR]

The one crucial problem is that Goku would have no need to even tap into his Super Saiyan power if you follow a theory such as Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God (which was suggested during the BOG Arc).

You'd be forced to conclude either that:

A. Gotenks SS3 in Super is actually Freeza/ Low-Android Arc tier.
B. SS2 Trunks became more than 100 times stronger than Gotenks SS3 (who, even in the anime continuity, shouldn't be that far off from Super Saiyan 3 BOG Goku) and/or that he could obtain results comparable to Whis' training by training on his own in the future.

That being said, is there any timeframe given between Dabra's death and Future Trunks' trip to the past? I mean, if it happens a whoppin' 17 years before Black arrives - alas, concurrently to the Buu Arc in the main timeframe - it could be a little more feasible for Trunks to at least surpass the Gotenks from the main timeline.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

[Chiki]

The one crucial problem is that Goku would have no need to even tap into his Super Saiyan power if you follow a theory such as Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God (which was suggested during the BOG Arc).

You'd be forced to conclude either that:

A. Gotenks SS3 in Super is actually Freeza/ Low-Android Arc tier.
B. SS2 Trunks became more than 100 times stronger than Gotenks SS3 (who, even in the anime continuity, shouldn't be that far off from Super Saiyan 3 BOG Goku) and/or that he could obtain results comparable to Whis' training by training on his own in the future.

That being said, is there any timeframe given between Dabra's death and Future Trunks' trip to the past? I mean, if it happens a whoppin' 17 years before Black arrives - alas, concurrently to the Buu Arc in the main timeframe - it could be a little more feasible for Trunks to at least surpass the Gotenks from the main timeline.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

Why would he be excited about Black if he's only SS3 level? Lol.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

LowRyder, I guess my issue with that is...why would Vegeta expect anything different if Super Saiyan is the same all across the board? If Cabba is really that pathetic in Base, wouldn't the outcome be the same whether he was transformed or not? If I recall correctly, Vegeta said he wasn't going to hold-back before the fight began, and we see that the two were pretty much fighting on the same level. The idea of varied multipliers seems rather far-fetched, so the idea of Cabba not being accustomed to Super Saiyan makes more sense. He could barely hold the form and looked drained from the transformation. Vegeta has mastered Super Saiyan and knows how to get the most out of it. Cabba doesn't have anywhere close to the amount of control Vegeta has, so I think that could show the discrepancy between the two.

[LowRyder2005]

LowRyder, I guess my issue with that is...why would Vegeta expect anything different if Super Saiyan is the same all across the board? If Cabba is really that pathetic in Base, wouldn't the outcome be the same whether he was transformed or not? If I recall correctly, Vegeta said he wasn't going to hold-back before the fight began, and we see that the two were pretty much fighting on the same level. The idea of varied multipliers seems rather far-fetched, so the idea of Cabba not being accustomed to Super Saiyan makes more sense. He could barely hold the form and looked drained from the transformation. Vegeta has mastered Super Saiyan and knows how to get the most out of it. Cabba doesn't have anywhere close to the amount of control Vegeta has, so I think that could show the discrepancy between the two.

Hmm, that's a fair objection actually. But I think Vegeta may have just wanted to gradually see what Cabbe had up his sleeve. He doesn't know anything about the guy, after all.
Dunno if I'm sending the point across, but something like this, basically:

1. "All right, let's jog a little". "Okay, let's jog!". (Base vs. Base)
2. "All right, let's jog a little faster!" "No, wait, I'm at my limit". (Super Saiyan vs. Base)
3. "What... you can only do that?" [I was expecting you to reach my full speed = that you had something comparable to my Blue]

Again, I think it fits, because "Mr. Buu is still crazy strong [when enraged]" according to both Goku and Vegeta, and if Base Cabbe was stronger than that already... wouldn't he be strong enough to defend himself and his planet against 99% of the threats? I mean, the vibe I got from the start entire point of the fight is for Cabbe to unlock Super Saiyan because in Vegeta's eyes he's kind of weak. But Mr. Buu is definitely at least "kind of strong", and Gotenks as well is "strong enough to participate".

In short, Vegeta may have expected Cabbe's to unveil his own Super Saiyan Blue or something that could overcome the gap between them, that's why he was gradually testing the waters with him, first his base form and then his Super Saiyan. He realizes he has only his base form and he's too weak to compare with the other participants and then he concocts the impromptu training session.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

But he could've reached the same ki in Base if you follow the streamlined approach. Goku's base form back in ROF could be sensed and he's supposed to be far stronger than Gotenks.
You're not arguing he's holding back, but that he used Super Saiyan 3 for show.

Besides, this is kinda like stating that "he is not holding back" and "he is holding back" at the same time, isn't it?
He is not holding back because he doesn't use his base, but he is holding back because he is using SS3 and and lowering his ki to - theoretically - levels far inferior to that of his base.

By the way, going back to the first post:

Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan uses god ki, Trunks wouldn't be able to sense it

This was the part I was referring to as proving my point that they're not God tier, if following your reasoning. Hit and Golden Freeza are not gods nor do they have God ki and can sense Goku's ki as Super Saiyan Blue. In short, claiming that "Trunks wouldn't be able to sense SSB Goku" is the same as claiming that Trunks (and SS2 Goku) are vastly inferior to the gods - hence Trunks can't sense Goku's ki if he turns Blue.

[TheMikado]

Except in the anime. The Super Saiyan God vanished and Goku was only able to absorb the power. Goku turning SSG again only makes sense because Goku never absorbed the SSG power in the manga.

I don't have any issue putting Trunks above Gotenks. If Trunks can become over 50x stronger in 3 years after he achieved Super Saiyan, then he surely could also become way stronger in about 9 years after he achieved Super Saiyan 2.

That's fine except he would need to be literally hundreds of times stronger now just in base, something Vegeta and Goku couldn't even accomplish without God training. Saying Trunks is at a similar level to Goku is basically also saying Trunks got God level completely on his own.

[TheMikado]

The one crucial problem is that Goku would have no need to even tap into his Super Saiyan power if you follow a theory such as Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God (which was suggested during the BOG Arc).

You'd be forced to conclude either that:

A. Gotenks SS3 in Super is actually Freeza/ Low-Android Arc tier.
B. SS2 Trunks became more than 100 times stronger than Gotenks SS3 (who, even in the anime continuity, shouldn't be that far off from Super Saiyan 3 BOG Goku) and/or that he could obtain results comparable to Whis' training by training on his own in the future.

That being said, is there any timeframe given between Dabra's death and Future Trunks' trip to the past? I mean, if it happens a whoppin' 17 years before Black arrives - alas, concurrently to the Buu Arc in the main timeframe - it could be a little more feasible for Trunks to at least surpass the Gotenks from the main timeline.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

Why would he be excited about Black if he's only SS3 level? Lol.

Exactly! At that level SSB finger poke should be enough to to stop Black unless Trunks magically did Whis training without Whis... I mean I know Beerus and Whis can literally do anything the plot demands but super secret training so secret the one training doesn't even realize it is a pretty impressive skill.

[Bullza]

Come now. There is definitely a two base theory. Whether it's the correct explanation or not is one thing, but you can't deny the theory's existence.

But it's still never been brought up or even implied, neither across the movies p, anime or manga. Why would the writers behind the show know of this two base theory and never mention it?

There's probably not even 1% of people watching the show who even know what the two base theory is.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

If he fights Black using only Super Saiyan in the next episode you can probably say he was holding back in this episode because he was told Black was at least as strong as his SSJ3 form.

[Chiki]

Come now. There is definitely a two base theory. Whether it's the correct explanation or not is one thing, but you can't deny the theory's existence.

But it's still never been brought up or even implied, neither across the movies p, anime or manga. Why would the writers behind the show know of this two base theory and never mention it?

There's probably not even 1% of people watching the show who even know what the two base theory is.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

If he fights Black using only Super Saiyan in the next episode you can probably say he was holding back in this episode because he was told Black was at least as strong as his SSJ3 form.

Let's take a look at the dictionary about what a theory is:

a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

A theory is simply a system of ideas to explain something. It doesn't matter where the idea comes from. A theory about the existence of the universe consisting of fairies who drink Earl Grey tea creating the universe is still a theory, albeit a stupid one. But a stupid theory is still a theory. I suggest you take an intro to science class.

He uses SSJ2, you can tell from the hair (the bangs especially). I'm 100% sure he's using SSJ2 and you'll see it yourself in a week.

[Bullza]

Yeah I know a theory is...I'm saying it's never been shown or implied in the show that there's any truth to it. So as of now the two base theory is still definitely not a thing.

He might be using SSJ2 and he might not. In this episode there were blue sparks, in the preview there was not. It's never been that consistent though which is why there's always been discussions on whether a character is using SSJ or SSJ2.

[LowRyder2005]

If he fights Black using only Super Saiyan in the next episode you can probably say he was holding back in this episode because he was told Black was at least as strong as his SSJ3 form.

Ehr... not following the causal relationship here, if anything it would mean that he, Black or both of them are holding back during Goku vs. Black. SS1/2 Trunks is weaker than Black, but it's been already established he's apparently comparable in power to SS Goku and stronger than "Vanilla" (<- placeholder) Base Goku.

At most, SS2/SS3 Goku is the one who can have a good fight or the edge against Black.

Black and SS3 Goku >>> Any form of Trunks.
Goku SS1/2 >= Trunks SS1/2

You can't reconcile this without acknowledging either the two-base argument or the fact that Base Trunks is stronger than SS3 Gotenks and around Base Goku (who is, say, at least Chou Gohan/ Buutenks tier himself).

[Chiki]

Yeah I know a theory is...I'm saying it's never been shown or implied in the show that there's any truth to it. So as of now the two base theory is still definitely not a thing.

He might be using SSJ2 and he might not. In this episode there were blue sparks, in the preview there was not. It's never been that consistent though which is why there's always been discussions on whether a character is using SSJ or SSJ2.

No, you don't know what a theory is, because you keep repeating "THERE IS NO TWO BASE THEORY!". A theory is just some ideas to explain a given phenomenon, and it exists as long as those ideas exist (two bases).

You can go ahead and say the two base theory is false. You can say it's false because it hasn't been explained. That's fine with me. That is a valid argument. But it certainly exists.

SSJ2 Goku has less bangs than SSJ Goku. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dVGPPE-2e8

See for yourself. He's definitely using SSJ2 there.

[apex_pretador]

Beerus called SS2 trunks "pretty good" despite calling everything below BoG SS3 goku trash.

So SS2 trunks >= SS3 goku BoG ~ SS3 gotenks?
Goku seemed amazed at trunks powering up that much all by himself, despite himself powering up to near kid buu level himself, in a shorter amount of time.

[Bullza]

Ehr... not following the causal relationship here

Well he's told Black is at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku but then why would Goku fight Black as a SSJ? I don't know where it was said that Trunks was equal to Goku but perhaps a serious SSJ Goku against Black could be stronger than a half hearted sparring SSJ3 Goku.

They said Black was holding back but Goku looks like he loses so I don't know why he'd be holding back that much.

You can go ahead and say the two base theory is false. That's fine with me. But it certainly exists.

You know what I mean, of course there's a theory. I (and others) have been saying there is no two base theory for weeks so why you only bringing this up now?

Yes there's a theory, no it has never been mentioned or implied in the show, no it is not a thing.

When power levels do not match up as expected and characters end up being stronger or weaker than people thought then the two bases theory is just a cop out way of making things fit.

"Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? Oh he must have God power switched on."

"But Goku went SSJ2 and 3 against Trunks? Oh he must have God power switched off then."

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

[TheMikado]

Well I know you feel only a very small subset of people watching the show would think that but if you've been watching the series or even the last two and the new arc people are naturally coming to the same conclusion even in other forums. We've even seen completely new people join the forum and their first question is about Goku having a base with God Ki and one without. Any fan, even a casual one who is watching regularly and attempting to make sense of the plot is coming the same conclusion. That being said I was in the two base camp very early but I am now out of it. The reason is that the manga answered that hole for me which is the SSG transformation still being around and acting as the 2nd base. Basically I now don't think it exists and Toei just royally screwed up completely and F'ed the entire show up. If the second base existed it would be in either the anime or the manga. As far as ROF having a super strong base, my opinion is that it's been retconned. The only way to know for sure is to see what level Vegeta chooses to fight in if Goku is fighting in SSG in the manga.