Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

You know what I mean, of course there's a theory. I (and others) have been saying there is no two base theory for weeks so why you only bringing this up now?

I don't really know what you mean. Lol. I'm only bringing it up now because I found it funny up until now when the two base theory was finally confirmed.

Yes there's a theory, no it has never been mentioned or implied in the show, no it is not a thing.

Mentioned, no. But it has been implied several times. A reasonable fellow would want to question how Piccolo and Future Trunks reached SSG level by training without Whis, and the only way to say that they didn't reach SSG level is to say that Goku has two bases. It's just the only way a reasonable person can explain the bad writing in Super. A reasonable fellow also wants to reconcile the power levels in the manga and the anime. The only difference between the two, according to the two base theory, is that SSG is invisible in the anime. This matches up with the

A smart person doesn't need someone to tell them everything and hand them on a silver platter. They can infer things from facts presented to them. For example, when I see smoke in a house nearby, I can infer that something is on fire and I don't need someone to tell me that something is on fire. Of course, this isn't a perfect analogy given that Dragon Ball Super is not real life and it involves writing (who want to make everything as clear as possible for the viewer), but DBS has bad writing and this is fact whether or not the two base theory is true (Piccolo and Future Trunks's insane power boosts if the two base theory is false). You consistently ignore this fact when I bring it up to you. If the two base theory is false, then you have to explain bad writing as well--why weren't Trunks's and Piccolo's insane power boosts mentioned by the writers? Because they suck either way.

The manga has already confirmed that Goku can optionally access SSG power in Base anyway, so I don't know why you won't just accept it. Let's recap all the arguments in favor of the two base theory:

1. Piccolo being stronger than Base Goku in Champa's arc. How did he become SSG level in such a short time?
2. Buu being hyped up by Toriyama only to drop out. In the manga, it was confirmed that Buu had to leave the tournament or he would have destroyed the other contestants.
3. In the manga, Frost is said to not train at all, meaning RoF Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frost. Base Goku dealt with Final Form Frieza in RoF easily but he gets owned by Final Form Frost who never trains? Lol no.
4. In the anime, Copy Vegeta >>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks meaning Vegeta and Goku have access to SSG power in Base.
5. Base Goku performed really well against a 100% serious Beerus in Monaka's costume, much better than SSJ3 Goku would have who got finger flicked like nothing by less than 10% Beerus.
6. Goku needs to go SSJ2/SSJ3 to deal with SSJ2 Future Trunks, who hasn't received any kind of special training while he was gone, so he couldn't have become SSG level.
7. In the manga, Goku can access SSG power whenever he wants. This would reconcile very well with the two base theory.
8. In ep 50, Goku goes SSJ2 to deal with Black.
9. An argument against the two base theory is that "it's never been mentioned!". If the two base theory is false, neither has Piccolo's power boost and Future Trunks's power boost.

These arguments all together are super strong and incontrovertible. Goku has two bases and it's been confirmed, period. Sorry, but you lost this debate, and it's over. I'm not going to talk about the two base theory anymore either, I'm just going to take it for granted.

That being said I was in the two base camp very early but I am now out of it. The reason is that the manga answered that hole for me which is the SSG transformation still being around and acting as the 2nd base.

But.. that means you accept the two base theory.

[LowRyder2005]

So SS2 trunks >= SS3 goku BoG ~ SS3 gotenks?

Actually, if you follow that notion, it'd be:

SS3 Goku (current) >>>> SS2 Goku (current) >= SS2 Trunks >> SS Goku (current) >= SS Trunks > Base Trunks > SS3 Goku (beginning of Super) > SS3 Gotenks (Super)

Going to ask this again: I can't watch the episode at the moment, but has there been any hint in the episode regarding when Trunks fought Dabra, exactly?

[apex_pretador]

So SS2 trunks >= SS3 goku BoG ~ SS3 gotenks?

Actually, if you follow that notion, it'd be:

SS3 Goku (current) >>>> SS2 Goku (current) >= SS2 Trunks >> SS Goku (current) >= SS Trunks > Base Trunks > SS3 Goku (beginning of Super) > SS3 Gotenks (Super)

Going to ask this again: I can't watch the episode at the moment, but has there been any hint in the episode regarding when Trunks fought Dabra, exactly? I mean, it it happened something like six months before he jumped on the Time Machine we'd have basically one more hint that current Trunks can't be much stronger than Dabra himself, since he apparently said it was a difficult fight to win.

But goku was not fighting back, all he wanted to do is have an estimate of black's strength. There is no way base trunks is above SS3 gotenks.
I don't think we can say it based on "trunks was pushing goku back" only.

There wasn't any hint when trunks fought dabura, but it is definitely after he defeated imperfect cell IMO. So it has been 10 years at most. However, given that he was able to beat dabura with SS1 alone , I think it says a lot about his power level at that point - above buu arc goku.

Don't forget he also has ROSAT in his timeline.

[Chiki]

So SS2 trunks >= SS3 goku BoG ~ SS3 gotenks?

Actually, if you follow that notion, it'd be:

SS3 Goku (current) >>>> SS2 Goku (current) >= SS2 Trunks >> SS Goku (current) >= SS Trunks > Base Trunks > SS3 Goku (beginning of Super) > SS3 Gotenks (Super)

Going to ask this again: I can't watch the episode at the moment, but has there been any hint in the episode regarding when Trunks fought Dabra, exactly?

No, but we see in the episode that Trunks struggles against him, meaning that either the two base theory is true or Dabura is SSG level or above.

Don't forget he also has ROSAT in his timeline.

Um, what? Proof?

[LowRyder2005]

@apex_predator: The point is that Trunks is still able to survive against Black. This means that unless it's explained that Black wanted to endlessly torture him, he shouldn't be exceptionally more powerful than SS2 Trunks.

Let's put this in numbers. Assuming your argument:

SS2 Trunks: 1
SS3 BOG Goku: 1
SS3 BOG Gotenks: 0.75

We'd have:

Black Goku: at least 300 - 1000 <- (he's shown defeating at least SS2 Goku)
SS3 Goku: 800
SS2 Goku: 200
Base Goku (current): 2
SS2 Trunks: 1
SS3 Copy-Vegeta Arc Gotenks: 0.75

Not even counting that Goku says "he went Super Saiyan 2! I'll do it too". Then what's the point of going SS2 when he'd be far stronger than Trunks with SS1? He'd literally be using it for no reason at all. Just to match SS2 Trunks appearance?


Problem: how in the world could Trunks survive this guy when it's stated that Black first and foremost wants to kill Trunks? Black could sneeze on him and Trunks would end up in a galaxy "far far away".

This is instead the result you get with the streamlined approach:

Black Goku: at least 1,000
SS2 Goku: 750
SS2 Trunks: 500
Base Goku: 7,5
SS3 Gotenks: 3

Problem: how in the world could Trunks become this abnormally strong? Or, how could Gotenks become this abnormally weak?

[Chiki]

Problem: how in the world could Trunks survive this guy when it's stated that Black first and foremost wants to kill Trunks? Black could sneeze on him and Trunks would end up in a galaxy "far far away".

It's mentioned in the ep that Black gets stronger after every time he fights, so he's probably not actually that strong. I bet he was weaker than SSJ Trunks the first time they fought.

[Bullza]

Mentioned, no. But it has been implied several times.

No it has never properly been implied, not a hint or a visual cue. There are things that might make viewers think there could be one but there's nothing in the show that ever implied he can just turn it off and off at will.

The manga has already confirmed that Goku can optionally access SSG power in Base anyway, so I don't know why you won't just accept it.

Of which he could also do in the Battle of Gods movie and his base form was still very strong in that as well.

1. Piccolo being stronger than Base Goku in Champa's arc. How did he become SSG level in such a short time?

They never said Piccolo was stronger than Base Goku. In fact one of the episodes shortly after this arc had Goku have some Ki dysfunctionality and he said to Piccolo that as he is now even Piccolo could beat him. Base Goku > Piccolo > Base Goku with problems.

2. Buu being hyped up by Toriyama only to drop out. In the manga, it was confirmed that Buu had to leave the tournament or he would have destroyed the other contestants.

Buu was never hyped up. Goku said they couldn't go without Buu and being that he's definitely one of the strongest beings in that universe then it's just a truthful statement. I saw nothing about him leaving the Tournament because of that either.

3. In the manga, Frost is said to not train at all, meaning RoF Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frost. Base Goku dealt with Final Form Frieza in RoF easily but he gets owned by Final Form Frost who never trains? Lol no.

They are mutants and they have unnaturally large Ki from doing nothing. Frieza never trained and yet he was far stronger than King Cold. All it means is that Frosts mutation meant that he had even more power than Frieza even after training. He also never got owned by his Final Form.

4. In the anime, Copy Vegeta >>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks meaning Vegeta and Goku have access to SSG power in Base.

Which is perfectly fine and is likely still to be true.

5. Base Goku performed really well against a 100% serious Beerus in Monaka's costume, much better than SSJ3 Goku would have who got finger flicked like nothing by less than 10% Beerus.

That's true but that's before Goku absorbed the power of a God. There is absolutely nothing to say that Beerus would be able to finger flick the SSJ3 Goku seen in this episode in the same way.

6. Goku needs to go SSJ2/SSJ3 to deal with SSJ2 Future Trunks, who hasn't received any kind of special training while he was gone, so he couldn't have become SSG level.

Whether he needed to or not is still speculative because he had no trouble with him. It could have been to just to match Trunks and show off his further forms. Additionally Trunks did get stronger, it doesn't matter how he did it, they said he had. Goku was impressed by how he'd improved and if what someone said above is true even Beerus was impressed.

7. In the manga, Goku can access SSG power whenever he wants. This would reconcile very well with the two base theory.

Which he also did in the Battle of Gods movie even after absorbing the power so it's no different from that.

8. In ep 50, Goku goes SSJ2 to deal with Black.

There's nothing wrong with that, he used Base for Monaca and he used Super Saiyan for Frost. It doesn't imply anything and he may go further than that in the episode.

9. An argument against the two base theory is that "it's never been mentioned!". If the two base theory is false, neither has Piccolo's power boost and Future Trunks's power boost

Trunks boost was mentioned and Piccolo was at least shown to have trained with Gohan and become on par with him in his Base form which he previously was nowhere close to.

These arguments all together are super strong and incontrovertible. Goku has two bases and it's been confirmed, period. Sorry, but you lost this debate, and it's over. I'm not going to talk about the two base theory anymore either, I'm just going to take it for granted.

First of all stop acting like this, it's childish. Second of all no there was nothing super strong about it. Some of those points you mentioned were wrong, some of them come down to "but this character shouldn't be this strong because...", some of them are misinterpreted.

[LowRyder2005]

No, but we see in the episode that Trunks struggles against him, meaning that either the two base theory is true or Dabura is SSG level or above.

I wanted to know because if the fight had happened at the same time of the Buu Saga, it'd be in 776 while Trunks, there'd be almost 20 years in-between (Super happens in 780 -> Trunks is stated to live 17 years in the future = 797). So Trunks reaching SS3 tier or above with SS2 could be a little less far-fetched... but still forced, nevertheless.
Realistically, though, it shouldn't have happened more than some months or years before Trunks meets Black. Unless one wanted to claim that Trunks used the same clothes or the same set of clothes for 20+ years.

... That reminds me, how the heck could Future Bulma look not like a granny in 797, since she's supposed to be 64?

Regarding Black, he should be at his all time high just one episode ago, right? Unless his power fluctuates according to who he's fighting, but I don't know if that can really be the case.

[apex_pretador]

@apex_predator: The point is that Trunks is still able to survive against Black. This means that unless it's explained that Black wanted to endlessly torture him, he shouldn't be exceptionally more powerful than SS2 Trunks.

Let's put this in numbers. Assuming your argument:

SS2 Trunks: 1
SS3 BOG Goku: 1
SS3 BOG Gotenks: 0.75

We'd have:

Black Goku: at least 300 - 1000 <- (he's shown defeating at least SS2 Goku)
SS3 Goku: 800
SS2 Goku: 200
Base Goku (current): 2
SS2 Trunks: 1
SS3 Copy-Vegeta Arc Gotenks: 0.75

Not even counting that Goku says "he went Super Saiyan 2! I'll do it too". Then what's the point of going SS2 when he'd be far stronger than Trunks with SS1? He'd literally be using it for no reason at all. Just to match SS2 Trunks appearance?


Problem: how in the world could Trunks survive this guy when it's stated that Black first and foremost wants to kill Trunks? Black could sneeze on him and Trunks would end up in a galaxy "far far away".

This is instead the result you get with the streamlined approach:

Black Goku: at least 1,000
SS2 Goku: 750
SS2 Trunks: 500
Base Goku: 7,5
SS3 Gotenks: 3

Problem: how in the world could Trunks become this abnormally strong? Or, how could Gotenks become this abnormally weak?

Really good point. I'll wait till next episode to make a power level list, maybe we will have some explanation later.

Anyways, is survival a good measure to judge trunks' power? I mean Tarble, who is below saiyan arc vegeta by obvious logic, was able to survive and trouble two freeza level opponents.
Similarly, base gotenks was able to survive fat buu.
We've seen black is so strong that trunks doesnt even bother against him.

[Blackstripe]

This is why we need the two base theory.

There is some more evidence if you consider that Gokuu went directly to SSB against Copy-Vegeta, rather than trying regular Super Saiyan first. So he was likely using Beyond God when he initially engaged him.

[AvatarReiko]

So does this episode baasically confirm that Trunks is stronger than Buu? He was able to go toe-to-toe with SSJ2 Godku, who owned 4th form Frizea in Base.

[Bullza]

He might be stronger than Buu but then I say he went toe to toe with Goku. He unleashed a barrage on him, Goku blocked them all, held his fists and went SSJ3.

DBZ power levels always accelerated fast. Perhaps Trunks surpassing Gotenks or Buu is just like Yamcha surpassing Goku and Raditz. Krillin surpassing Goku with Kaioken and Vegeta etc.

[LowRyder2005]

Or the SS3 Gotenks vs. Vegeta fight is the Yamcha vs. Olibu of Super. Potentially as something entirely added by TOEI which wouldn't fit the narrative scope.

If it wasn't for the little pseudo-filler arc, no one would take Base Trunks becoming stronger than SS3 Gotenks seriously.

[HeroR]

Or the SS3 Gotenks vs. Vegeta fight is the Yamcha vs. Olibu of Super. Potentially as something entirely added by TOEI which wouldn't fit the narrative scope.

If it wasn't for the little pseudo-filler arc, no one would take Base Trunks becoming stronger than SS3 Gotenks seriously.

Olibu was a filler character created by Toei, so they could whatever they wanted with him. They were the one who decides how strong he is. We know how stronger Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is supposed to be until proven otherwise. Goku obviously wasn't trying against Trunks, just as Copy-Vegeta wasn't trying against Gotenks. The only different is that Goku put up more of a show instead of standing with his arms cross and letting Trunks go at him. Black is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku who one-punch Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, yet Trunks in his base deflected hits from Black and manages to punch Black as a Super Saiyan, which led people to claim that Black is actually really weak, when it was obvious that Black was screwing with Trunks.

[HeroR]

The one crucial problem is that Goku would have no need to even tap into his Super Saiyan power if you follow a theory such as Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God (which was suggested during the BOG Arc).

You'd be forced to conclude either that:

A. Gotenks SS3 in Super is actually Freeza/ Low-Android Arc tier.
B. SS2 Trunks became more than 100 times stronger than Gotenks SS3 (who, even in the anime continuity, shouldn't be that far off from Super Saiyan 3 BOG Goku) and/or that he could obtain results comparable to Whis' training by training on his own in the future.

That being said, is there any timeframe given between Dabra's death and Future Trunks' trip to the past? I mean, if it happens a whoppin' 17 years before Black arrives - alas, concurrently to the Buu Arc in the main timeframe - it could be a little more feasible for Trunks to at least surpass the Gotenks from the main timeline.

Goku is obviously holding back and only went Super Saiyan 3 to see how it measure to Black. Nothing indicates that he had to transform.

Why would he be excited about Black if he's only SS3 level? Lol.

Because Super Saiyan 3 is not a level, it's a multiplier based on how strong a Saiyan's base form is, just as there's no such thing as Super Saiyan level since Super Saiyan Goku from Namek is much weaker than Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games. If Goku's base is as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, then his Super Saiyan 3 would be much stronger than any level from the Buu Saga and would problem be somewhat close to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. The reason he stopped using Super Saiyan 3 is because it's an energy drain.

[namekiansaiyan]

There is not 2 bases.

In the manga Red hair comes after normal Super Saiyan and before Super Saiyan Blue. Goku does not have 2 black hair forms, so there is still only 1 base in both manga and anime.

[LowRyder2005]

Or the SS3 Gotenks vs. Vegeta fight is the Yamcha vs. Olibu of Super. Potentially as something entirely added by TOEI which wouldn't fit the narrative scope.

If it wasn't for the little pseudo-filler arc, no one would take Base Trunks becoming stronger than SS3 Gotenks seriously.

Olibu was a filler character created by Toei, so they could whatever they wanted with him.

That's what I was aiming at. Are you indirectly implying that we have to rest assured that Copy-Vegeta is not a "filler" character created by TOEI as well, along with his self-contained mini-arc?
The manga adaptation will skip him as well, so he definitely looks like a product of TOEI expanding the story in the first place until the manga caught up, to me. The Future Trunks Arc has been written in tandem, however, and the first discrepancies are already showing.

As for Black, I've already shared my opinion. Your opinion is that if Black is as strong as SS3 "God" Goku and SS Trunks is weaker than SS Gotenks. Okay, you have to wonder how the heck Trunks managed to survive against someone who was hellbent to kill him and who is literally hundreds or thousands of times stronger than him (at least in ep. 48).
Even if they are trying to show what you're trying to say it's shown, I am adamant that it's a reasonably counter-intuitive writing.

To reiterate: Black Goku, hundreds or thousand of times (or possibly more) stronger than SS2 Trunks during the last episode, somehow still can't kill him... even though he can't wait to kill him and would follow him to the ends of the Earth to satisfy his thirst for blood.
Current episode: Goku turns Super Saiyan 3 to compare himself to Black (so let's say SS3 Goku = Black) and is hundreds or thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks... first turns Super Saiyan 3 and then suppresses himself again to a level lower than his base form not to kill Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.
Why did Goku turn SS3 in the first place when he could've reached the same ki with Super Saiyan 1 (since Super Saiyan > Base)? And if that's the case, why couldn't Black kill Trunks with a karate chop to the head since he's at least equal to SS3 Goku who is hundreds/ thousands of times stronger than SS2 Trunks?

[Noah]

People really need to stop trying to reasoning with Piccolo and Trunks being God-tier, because that doesn't make any sense!

Goku said in BoG that he as a Super Saiyan God was at a level that he could never imagined to reach on his own, so what make you guys possibly think that Piccolo sparring with Gohan, then training alone in the wastelands was enough to he jump from FPSSJ-tier to a God-tier, with actually no special training methods even implied? Bullshit.

Mirai Trunks sure got stronger after he killed Cell, he being at SSJ2-tier is logical to me, but yeah training alone or maybe training with Kaioshin (that could even make him even more stronger) would NOT make him strong as a God-tier

I would like to note that it seems they change Base power after every Arc:

- Post Beerus, RoF = Godly Base
- Universe 7 v.s 6 Tournament: Normal Base
- Potaufeu "filler": Godly Base
- Black: Normal Base

Could that be the issue?

[Saturnine]

Let's be honest with ourselves, in regards to power levels and tiers the writing has been abysmal

- First we're led to believe that Goku absorbs the power of a God into his base state which he uses with an aura and the only thing above is ssj blue
- Then SSj1 comes back in. Already forced, but explainable based on an interview, people supposedly think it has been perfected and either incorporates ssj2 and ssj3 power, or equals SSjG, which base was now already supposed to ("Chou Super Saiyan", was it?), whatever
- And now we get ssj2 and 3 again? Despite all that's been said about these forms not being good anymore? I realize it was done for fanservice and nostalgia fuel. I know kids want more transformations, but come on.

The only way for it all to make even a modicum of sense is there to be two bases, one mundane and one divine. Base<SSj<SSj2<SSj3<SBG(ROF and anime)/SSjG(manga)<SSjB

[TheMikado]

Let's be honest with ourselves, in regards to power levels and tiers the writing has been abysmal

- First we're led to believe that Goku absorbs the power of a God into his base state which he uses with an aura and the only thing above is ssj blue
- Then SSj1 comes back in. Already forced, but explainable based on an interview, people supposedly think it has been perfected and either incorporates ssj2 and ssj3 power, or equals SSjG, which base was now already supposed to ("Chou Super Saiyan", was it?), whatever
- And now we get ssj2 and 3 again? Despite all that's been said about these forms not being good anymore? I realize it was done for fanservice and nostalgia fuel. I know kids want more transformations, but come on.

The only way for it all to make even a modicum of sense is there to be two bases, one mundane and one divine. Base<SSj<SSj2<SSj3<SBG(ROF and anime)/SSjG(manga)<SSjB

This is exactly correct! The problem is we don't know if the form between SSJ3 and SSB is supposed to be base in appearance or SSG in appearance which is where the power levels and transformations diverge and can't be reconciled between the two. In my opinion the writers of the show just didn't understand that which is why Gokus base is all over the place. That haven't realized that they are supposed to be two different forms with dramatically different power levels..