The new SSJ forms in context with the old ones (DBS Ep. 49)

[kaioken12]

So episode 49 just overthrew everything again for me in terms of SSJ power levels ("beyond god")...
I swear, I can't keep up anymore - anybody, please try to make sense of it "in universe" and help me out or my brain might be going to explode XD
I mean, either it really is a mess or I just don't see the pattern.

So there was just the normal form - this one would not be able to stand up to Freeza (supposedly his final form) according to Beerus.
Plus, we had SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3, with the latter two said to be upgraded versions of SSJ.

Then there was the new SSJG (red) - much more powerful, with god ki. And the "normal" SSJ "beyond god" which would still be able to at least keep up a bit with the toying Beerus.
Afterwards, there was the "normal form beyond god", which was able to keep up with a trained Freeza in his final form.
Finally, SSJ Blue appeared which was explained to be a SSJG who went SSJ.
(I still don't know whether they mean 50x SSJG or just a SSJ that can use the power of SSJG - but nevertheless, all cool.)

Ok, so I get that much: Since SSJ Blue is *much* stronger than SSJ3 (either way) while also being more energy-efficient, there is no *need* to go SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore.

But here's the inconsistency: You would assume the "normal base form beyond god" is stronger than Gohan's SSJ form.
The latter was casually swapped aside by Freeza's first form while the former could go toe to toe with Freeza's fourth form.
Furthermore, the water-copy of Vegeta could mess up Gotenks SSJ3 in his normal form, which further supports the observation of a very strong base form.

So where does this put the "normal" SSJ form then? If it is 50x of this new base level, then of course, it is much stronger than before.
To put it the other way round, I don't see why they wouldn't use their new base powers. Because it would seem more energy efficient and more powerful than going SSJ from the "normal base".

In the tournament, however, Vegeta stated that Cabba's base form was pretty much on par with his own - which would either put Cabbe above anyone else or which would mean that Vegeta indeed fought again in his "normal" base.
In this case, he might have held back of course. Not questioning that. But Goku and him also had to turn SSJ to beat Frost. So either Frost already was at "trained Freezas" level or we are left to assume they are only using "normal" base unlike during the FnF arc. But this wouldn't really make much sense to me, because they were facing off allegedly very strong opponents. And it would concomitantly make the power of water-copy Vegeta quite questionable.

So I figured, for my head-canon, that Goku and Vegeta's new base forms are kind of like "Mystic" Gohan now. From there, they can go SSJ to even higher levels (energy efficient, mastered) or SSJB (more powerful but drains stamina). Using SSJ2 and SSJ3 would be much more inefficient than SSJB, so they just keep off these forms.

All was good. And then, there came Episode 49 in which Goku's SSJ and SSJ2 are kind of on par with Future Trunks' forms. This would again place Goku's base levels at the "normal" base level (and by that, not "beyond god").
Unless both Trunks and Cabbe are just able to exert power at God levels, which I can seriously doubt at least in Trunks' case. For Cabbe, there no context was given, but Trunks stated he had a difficult fight against Dabura not too long ago.
And tadaa, it became a problem for my Dragon Ball OCD

Finally, I cannot make sense of all these inconsistencies - are they just that, inconsistencies, or is there a logical pattern I just don't see?

If they can use both a "normal" base and a "base beyond god", why would they even resort to using the former in real battles?
Why would they go SSJ (50x base) if they can achieve >SSJ3 power in their base form?
Wouldn't SSJ then only make sense if used to power up from the "base beyond god"?
But then what is it that I am observing in Ep. 49 again?

[Kishido]

It makes no sense.

Some people will give you an explanation in huge ass posts... But it simply makes no sense.

Just take it as it is and that's it. Super is there to make
money for TOEI and Toriyama and to to explain stuff correctly

[apex_pretador]

IMO:

Gohan SS ~= Trunks SS2 > base goku > SS3 goku BoG ~= SS3 gotenks > Base gohan

Gohan & trunks using fusion will be relevant again

[miguelnuva1]

Here's my theory

Base Goku <super saiyan <super saiyan 2 <super saiyan 3 <saiyan beyond god <super saiyan beyond god <Super saiyan god super saiyan.

[sintzu]

I cannot make sense of all these inconsistencies.

are they just that, inconsistencies, or is there a logical pattern I just don't see?

Why would they go SSJ (50x base) if they can achieve >SSJ3 power in their base form?

But then what is it that I am observing in Ep. 49 again?

Because that's what they are, inconsistencies.

This is the pattern that's used at Toei to decide on story details :

[spoiler]Main writer : According to Toriyama's script, Goku fights Black when he arrives so how should we do it ?
Toei suit : Based on the source material, Goku should start with Ssj2 and make his way up to SsjB.
Main writer : Sir, it's been established that Goku absorbing SsjG's power has eliminated the need for the old forms.
Toei suit : that was in 2015, now he needs the old forms.
Main writer : I have Toriyama's script from FNF and...
Toei suit : Give me that.
Main writer : You threw my script out the window!
Toei suit : You don't need that old thing, this is the newest version.
Main writer : This is a sales chart for toys and cards!!
Toei suit : We're a company that only cares about the green so that's our source material.
??? : I can forgive getting hit in the head with my own script but this ? this has gone too far!!
Toei suit & writer : TORIYAMA SENSEI!!!
Toriyama : as an influential writer, I will do everything in my power to make sure that story>$$$.
Toei suit : You might want to take a look at this sir, We'll give you 50% of the profits.
Toriyama : DEAL!
Writer : But Sensei, what will the fans think ? and what about other writers who look up to you ?
Toriyama : You can have a cut as well.
Writer : DEAL!!![/spoiler]

Because Ssj moves cards and toys off shelves.

The writers don't care about in-universe logic.

[Desassina]

For me it's very simple: when they turn SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3, they're not dialing their power up to that of a God. Since power ranges, they could be transforming from a suppressed state, like Cell used the equivalent of Grade II against Trunks, when he had access to his Full Power without deformation. The problem has always been assuming that SSJB was in the same line as SSJ3, when it's only SSJ with the power level of a God. In other words, it's still a multiplier of 50 over a stronger base, if you like that kind of stuff.

[ekrolo2]

For me it's very simple: when they turn SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3, they're not dialing their power up to that of a God. Since power ranges, they could be transforming from a suppressed state, like Cell used the equivalent of Grade II against Trunks, when he had access to his Full Power without deformation. The problem has always been assuming that SSJB was in the same line as SSJ3, when it's only SSJ with the power level of a God. In other words, it's still a multiplier of 50 over a stronger base, if you like that kind of stuff.

The very fact we need to resort to two base forms is total bull, though. It's pretty obvious Blue was meant to be our Super Saiyan form going forward, as its original name of implied it to be but now they've brought them all back.

[Desassina]

It's not two base forms, it's dialing it up and down to different levels. We can't prove that they remain a static number throughout, but we do have proof that power has and needs to range for certain things to make sense.

[sintzu]

It's pretty obvious Blue was meant to be our Super Saiyan form going forward, as its original name of implied it to be but now they've brought them all back.

They shouldn't even exist cause Goku made it seem like Blue wasn't even a new form, it was the original Ssj but was Blue due to him absorbing Ssjg's power.

[Marco Polo]

Goku obviously turned off his God power this episode

[ekrolo2]

It's not two base forms, it's dialing it up and down to different levels. We can't prove that they remain a static number throughout, but we do have proof that power has and needs to range for certain things to make sense.

And such fluctuation needs to make sense in its own series and what came before. We've got situations where forms previously touted as being useless and for all intents and purposes retired are being brought back and characters are randomly becoming stronger & weaker from episode to episode.

The only way Trunks can do what he did in the latest episode is he either became stronger than Vegetto or Goku used his regular base form as a jumping off point to use his regular Super Saiyan forms.

It's pretty obvious Blue was meant to be our Super Saiyan form going forward, as its original name of implied it to be but now they've brought them all back.

They shouldn't even exist cause Goku made it seem like Blue wasn't even a new form, it was the original Ssj but was Blue due to him absorbing Ssjg's power.

Technically speaking Blue shouldn't exist either, since Goku already absorbs the God power in the BoG arc and his Super Saiyan hair didn't suddenly change color nor did his power change. Even Toriyama supported the idea we'd only have regular Super Saiyan until he decided for F he wouldn't anymore.

[Desassina]

I already gave you one example of a weaker form being used when the character had access to his full power. Gohan did the same: he turned SSJ, but only because his full power was out of reach. Freeza could have used his Golden form from the start, but he was merely testing waters with his true form. Boo saga Goku was both stronger than Piccolo and weaker than Freeza at base when Piccolo should be much stronger than the latter, so I can paint Goku's base as something that ranged between 1 to 50 times his battle power, before he hit SSJ. This is not the case of this theory being wrong, it's more the case of people not wanting it to work, because we're too quick to call things inconsistent. "Power fluctuates" has been with the series all along.

[ekrolo2]

I already gave you one example of a weaker form being used when the character had access to his full power. Gohan did the same: he turned SSJ, but only because his full power was out of reach. Freeza could have used his Golden form from the start, but he was merely testing waters with his true form. Boo saga Goku was both stronger than Piccolo and weaker than Freeza at base when Piccolo should be much stronger than the latter, so I can paint Goku's base as something that ranged between 1 to 50 times his battle power, before he hit SSJ. This is not the case of this theory being wrong, it's more the case of people not wanting it to work, because we're too quick to call things inconsistent. "Power fluctuates" has been with the series all along.

Goku in the Boo Saga being above Piccolo is debatable while him being under Freeza is a new thing that's only existed for about 3 years now and how it works with the earlier material is again debatable.

We know Base Goku & Vegeta are above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and in the latest episode Goku and Trunks go at it in Super Saiyan 2... why? Goku can just power up to his full base strength, which is well above Goku's Super Saiyan 3 power in his regular base state and he'd basically give Trunks the same idea of how his power relates to Blacks. We know his base can be sensed even with God ki since the F arc has everyone state Goku's energy only stopped being sense-able when he used Blue.

So, we have a situation where Goku powers down his base to transform into a form that can't be mastered and isn't as flexible with its power to give Trunks what easily could've been written with just his God ki base form. You see how needlessly complicated this is?

[Desassina]

The problem is that you're saying that Goku can, and not that he did. You're expressing your desire for certain things to happen, when they didn't. What's the problem with characters testing each other without going all out? Was Cell not fighting with less than Full Power against Goku? Didn't Freeza keep a steady 50% use of his power, even if put in danger by Kaioken, Kamehameha and the Genki-dama? Drama, and not logic, is the key for good entertainment.

[ekrolo2]

The problem is that you're saying that Goku can, and not that he did. You're expressing your desire for certain things to happen, when they didn't. What's the problem with characters testing each other without going all out? Was Cell not fighting with less than Full Power against Goku? Didn't Freeza keep a steady 50% use of his power, even if put in danger by Kaioken, Kamehameha and the Genki-dama? Drama, and not logic, is the key for good entertainment.

Except why make it complicated like this? Goku's stronger base form gives him more than enough of a range to test how strong Trunks is without creating this situation where he lowers his power, then powers back up to an inflexible form of Super Saiyan that was previously discarded because it wasn't worthwhile anymore when the simpler solution gets you the same effect.

That's the inherent problem of all this God nonsense, the simplest answer would've been to keep it as Base and SS or Blue and that's it. Instead, it's this hodge podge of different things that don't mesh together and randomly change from episode to episode. Case-in-point, Blue having stamina issues one episode then next having better control over it than a mastered Super Saiyan.

[Desassina]

I guess that it was cool showing SSJ2 and SSJ3 again, as it was using Kaioken again. It's fan service that is harmless, so as long as we aren't the ones to complicate things. On a side note, Goku probably wanted to show that Trunks could get much stronger without God power.

[ekrolo2]

I guess that it was cool showing SSJ2 and SSJ3 again, as it was using Kaioken again. It's fan service that is harmless, so as long as we aren't the ones to complicate things.

The only worthwhile fan service is a good story with consistent rules. When you start making everyone stupid or having characters do things whatever with no rhyme or reason, you've taken a wrong turn and need to course correct or drop any pretense of logic and tension and just go full bat-shit.

[Desassina]

Look, buddy, I'm in for the entertainment value that I can make sense with. Don't ruin it for others if you can't. This is not fan fiction to follow an arbitrary set of rules that was never laid out for us in the first place, only inferred.

It's not about changing the world, it's about looking at it differently by changing yourself.

[ekrolo2]

Look, buddy, I'm in for the entertainment value that I can make sense with. Don't ruin it for others if you can't. This is not fan fiction to follow an arbitrary set of rules that was never laid out for us in the first place, only inferred.

It's not about changing the world, it's about looking at it differently by changing yourself.

It's entirely on you whether my comments make you like or dislike something more or less, not my place to stay quite on things just because I might make someone like something they didn't before or vice versa.

As for the rules, the guy who's apparently writing this, Toriyama, laid them out multiple times and he's either contradicted himself or others have. Meaning there's no rhyme or reason to anything, hence why it should either course correct or just go full on insane random bat-shit ala Heroes and drop any pretense of trying to make sense. At least with the unchained Heroes approach we'd just accept nothing really makes sense and be fine with rather than Super's current "we've got rules.... until we don't anymore."

[Desassina]

This is just going to continue until you have the last word, isn't it? I'll be the first to leave, because I'm tired of this power shit.