Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[jjgp1112]

I almost never think about power levels when watching anything Dragon Ball related these days, but I think the mere fact that Goku turned Super Saiyan without his hair turning blue makes it obvious that he can pick and choose when to access his "God Ki" or what have you at will. Plus the fact that Trunks can even sense his ki at all.

[LightBing]

I almost never think about power levels when watching anything Dragon Ball related these days, but I think the mere fact that Goku turned Super Saiyan without his hair turning blue makes it obvious that he can pick and choose when to access his "God Ki" or what have you at will. Plus the fact that Trunks can even sense his ki at all.

This has already been know since the RoF arc. At the time everybody commented how they couldn't feel Goku's ki when he turned SSJB, implying they could before when he was fighting Final Form Freeza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Did you guys notice something in the preview? SS2 Goku fights Goku Black, and can't do any damage to him with neither hand-to-hand nor ki attacks. Then we see that base Goku fights Goku Black, and Goku Black is slightly damaged... Maybe the 2 base theory will really be confirmed?

There's a lot of "mights" involved that don't need to be there though. Hit might have been pulling his punches, Hit might have been fluctuating his power, Hit might not be confident about not killing Goku, SSJG Goku might have been holding back etc.

It's though people are trying to make them not fit together when the simple presentation is that they do.

We know that Hit wasn't serious against base Goku since he knew about SSB, and that he got more serious against SS Goku. We know that SSG Goku wouldn't want to beat Hit before he showed him his true power. They are all logical assumptions.

There's no need for there to be any retcon. In Battle of Gods he absorbed it but still turned into it afterward anyway. It's just the same thing. Toriyama wouldn't have changed his mind like that, he wouldn't go backward on something that was just recently established in two movies he wrote without their being any mention of it.

But there is no indication that Goku absorbed any of the SSG power, and there are already many contradictions to it in the manga. So, unless we later learn that Goku really did absorb the SSG & he can turn it on & off in his base/SS form, we have a plot-hole if the movies & the manga are supposed to be connected.

Why? Base Goku could be 80% as strong as Frost and Piccolo could be like 10% as strong or something.

No way. Frost was tired against Piccolo & couldn't one-shot him, and Frost was even more tired against base Vegeta. But even if Piccolo is x8 weaker than SSG, he is still far too strong.

That's what you just did.

Wrong, I'm picking what still fits. There is nothing contradicting the 6/10/15 numbers in the manga so far, while there are contradictions of Goku having SSG power in the manga.

Goku and Vegeta aren't at regular levels in the outline so they won't be in the manga.

You've read the outline?!

Them having a before and after base form is a thing but them being able to switch it on and off has never been shown or even implied in the movies, anime or manga.

Which is why Goku can't have the SSG power in the manga. In the movies, he is shown having the SSG power. In the manga, he is shown not having the SSG power. Unless we find out that Goku can turn on & off his SSG power in his base form, which has yet to be confirmed, they can't fit together.

It wasn't that insignificant. He was able to stop an attack as a SSJG that Base form was overwhelmed by. The manga's gaps aren't that significant either, Base Goku makes Hit bleed and SSJG Goku makes Hit bleed.

Base Goku could make Hit bleed with off-guard attacks, SS Goku couldn't do it at all & was stronger than Hit while base Goku wasn't, and SSG Goku could surpass Hit's Tokitobashi & damage him with a regular ki blast. Hit's true power was so incredibly huge compared to his suppressed power that he couldn't hold it for over a minute, you thing this would happen if Hit went from 90% to 100%?

[worrior_v1]

to be honest, for it to all make sense this is where powerlevels should be at for Goku:

Normal Base>Ss1>Ss2>Ss3> Godly base> Super Sayain Blue> Super Sayain Blue kkx10.

Goku fought trunks as as Ss2 and as an Ss 3.

Trunks was as powerful as him as an Ss2, thus forcing Goku to turn into Ss3 to one shot him ( basically the difference between SS2 and SS3).

Trunks thinks that Goku is at his max at SS3, and thinks Goku Black is supposdley slightly stronger than Goku, when Goku is a SS3.

Goku laughs it off, knowing that his SS3 form is far weaker than the other forms he has at his disposal.

In the NEP, Goku gauges Blacks power by fighting him in SS2 form, the same form he fought trunks in, to see if he would get destroyed just like trunks did. To see how powerful black truly is.

End of story.

My guess is that Black is as strong as Mystic Gohan in the Buu Arc in base form, enough to toy with a SS2 and enough to be reasonably stronger than a SS3 Goku, which trunks sensed.

Presumably, Goku will not take this next fight seriously, and will anger Vegeta. Goku will showcase his God Ki in the next episode after Black thinks he's winning.

This will be in base form and will confuse Black ( and it will confirm the two-base theory).

Black will be swiftly defeated with extreme ease to showcase the difference between base God form and Mystic Gohan tier form. Somehow Black escapes with his life and the episode will end. Beerus and Whis will note some odd things about Black which will capture the interest of Goku and Vegeta.

I don't think Black as of now will be compareable to Goku and Vegeta at their full-power, but something will happen which will make him such a threat that Whis and other gods of destruction/omni-king will get involved ( Probably using Goku and Vegeta's sayain thirst for a good fight as a means to enact this, like the previous poster said with Black getting stronger after every fight, he probably has a huge zenkai boost after ever near-death experience).

Thoughts?

[HeroR]

That's what I was aiming at. Are you indirectly implying that we have to rest assured that Copy-Vegeta is not a "filler" character created by TOEI as well, along with his self-contained mini-arc?
The manga adaptation will skip him as well, so he definitely looks like a product of TOEI expanding the story in the first place until the manga caught up, to me. The Future Trunks Arc has been written in tandem, however, and the first discrepancies are already showing.

As for Black, I've already shared my opinion. Your opinion is that if Black is as strong as SS3 "God" Goku and SS Trunks is weaker than SS Gotenks. Okay, you have to wonder how the heck Trunks managed to survive against someone who was hellbent to kill him and who is literally hundreds or thousands of times stronger than him (at least in ep. 48).
Even if they are trying to show what you're trying to say it's shown, I am adamant that it's a reasonably counter-intuitive writing.

To reiterate: Black Goku, hundreds or thousand of times (or possibly more) stronger than SS2 Trunks during the last episode, somehow still can't kill him... even though he can't wait to kill him and would follow him to the ends of the Earth to satisfy his thirst for blood.
Current episode: Goku turns Super Saiyan 3 to compare himself to Black (so let's say SS3 Goku = Black) and is hundreds or thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks... first turns Super Saiyan 3 and then suppresses himself again to a level lower than his base form not to kill Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.
Why did Goku turn SS3 in the first place when he could've reached the same ki with Super Saiyan 1 (since Super Saiyan > Base)? And if that's the case, why couldn't Black kill Trunks with a karate chop to the head since he's at least equal to SS3 Goku who is hundreds/ thousands of times stronger than SS2 Trunks?

Copy-Vegeta may have been filler, but Copy-Vegeta was still base on Vegeta and his power, while Olibu was his own character Toei completely created.

And Black didn't kill Trunks right away because he likes to play with his food. He could have just destroy the planet, yet he chose to hunt humans for over a year instead. And even if he was only as strong as Ultimate Gohan, he still would have killed Trunks in his base form with ease if he wanted to.

[HeroR]

to be honest, for it to all make sense this is where powerlevels should be at for Goku:

Normal Base>Ss1>Ss2>Ss3> Godly base> Super Sayain Blue> Super Sayain Blue kkx10.

Goku fought trunks as as Ss2 and as an Ss 3.

Trunks was as powerful as him as an Ss2, thus forcing Goku to turn into Ss3 to one shot him ( basically the difference between SS2 and SS3).

Trunks thinks that Goku is at his max at SS3, and thinks Goku Black is supposdley slightly stronger than Goku, when Goku is a SS3.

Goku laughs it off, knowing that his SS3 form is far weaker than the other forms he has at his disposal.

In the NEP, Goku gauges Blacks power by fighting him in SS2 form, the same form he fought trunks in, to see if he would get destroyed just like trunks did. To see how powerful black truly is.

End of story.

My guess is that Black is as strong as Mystic Gohan in the Buu Arc in base form, enough to toy with a SS2 and enough to be reasonably stronger than a SS3 Goku, which trunks sensed.

Presumably, Goku will not take this next fight seriously, and will anger Vegeta. Goku will showcase his God Ki in the next episode after Black thinks he's winning.

This will be in base form and will confuse Black ( and it will confirm the two-base theory).

Black will be swiftly defeated with extreme ease to showcase the difference between base God form and Mystic Gohan tier form. Somehow Black escapes with his life and the episode will end. Beerus and Whis will note some odd things about Black which will capture the interest of Goku and Vegeta.

I don't think Black as of now will be compareable to Goku and Vegeta at their full-power, but something will happen which will make him such a threat that Whis and other gods of destruction/omni-king will get involved ( Probably using Goku and Vegeta's sayain thirst for a good fight as a means to enact this, like the previous poster said with Black getting stronger after every fight, he probably has a huge zenkai boost after ever near-death experience).

Thoughts?

Trunks wasn't as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, did you even watch the fight? Goku just block Trunks' attack without doing anything and Trunks did no damage. He then went Super Saiyan 3 to show off to Trunks and to see how it stacked against Black. Goku didn't laugh for the reasons you stated, he laugh because he was happy to learn that Black was powerful, typical Goku.

[Shinomori]

to be honest, for it to all make sense this is where powerlevels should be at for Goku:

Normal Base>Ss1>Ss2>Ss3> Godly base> Super Sayain Blue> Super Sayain Blue kkx10.

Goku fought trunks as as Ss2 and as an Ss 3.

Trunks was as powerful as him as an Ss2, thus forcing Goku to turn into Ss3 to one shot him ( basically the difference between SS2 and SS3).

Trunks thinks that Goku is at his max at SS3, and thinks Goku Black is supposdley slightly stronger than Goku, when Goku is a SS3.

Goku laughs it off, knowing that his SS3 form is far weaker than the other forms he has at his disposal.

In the NEP, Goku gauges Blacks power by fighting him in SS2 form, the same form he fought trunks in, to see if he would get destroyed just like trunks did. To see how powerful black truly is.

End of story.

My guess is that Black is as strong as Mystic Gohan in the Buu Arc in base form, enough to toy with a SS2 and enough to be reasonably stronger than a SS3 Goku, which trunks sensed.

Presumably, Goku will not take this next fight seriously, and will anger Vegeta. Goku will showcase his God Ki in the next episode after Black thinks he's winning.

This will be in base form and will confuse Black ( and it will confirm the two-base theory).

Black will be swiftly defeated with extreme ease to showcase the difference between base God form and Mystic Gohan tier form. Somehow Black escapes with his life and the episode will end. Beerus and Whis will note some odd things about Black which will capture the interest of Goku and Vegeta.

I don't think Black as of now will be compareable to Goku and Vegeta at their full-power, but something will happen which will make him such a threat that Whis and other gods of destruction/omni-king will get involved ( Probably using Goku and Vegeta's sayain thirst for a good fight as a means to enact this, like the previous poster said with Black getting stronger after every fight, he probably has a huge zenkai boost after ever near-death experience).

Thoughts?

Trunks wasn't as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, did you even watch the fight? Goku just block Trunks' attack without doing anything and Trunks did no damage. He then went Super Saiyan 3 to show off to Trunks and to see how it stacked against Black. Goku didn't laugh for the reasons you stated, he laugh because he was happy to learn that Black was powerful, typical Goku.

Trunks didn't use his full power until Goku went SSJ3. Yet in all reality, Goku should have been able to beat down SSJ2 Trunks in base form yet the show acts like Goku needed to go SSJ2 to match him. I don't know what this show is doing in terms of power level and strength.

[HeroR]

Trunks didn't use his full power until Goku went SSJ3. Yet in all reality, Goku should have been able to beat down SSJ2 Trunks in base form yet the show acts like Goku needed to go SSJ2 to match him. I don't know what this show is doing in terms of power level and strength.

The show didn't present it that way at all. Goku asked Trunks to show him how powerful Black was and Trunks went Super Saiyan 2. Goku laughed and said, okay me too. Goku didn't have to, he just wanted to show Trunks that he can become a Super Saiyan 2 as well. He then shows up Super Saiyan 3. And Trunks full power was literally just him taking out his sword and changing Goku. He didn't exactly power up.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, for me it's quite simple. Normal form, SS, SS2, SS3, SSG and SSB. All of them have different powerlevels and have their purpose. Things like Piccolo, Gotenks and Future Trunks having battle powers comparable to this form or that one of Goku or Vegeta are minor details which I don't really need to see explained. Of course, perhaps they will fill us up with some detailed explanation as they always do when intended, but until then I'm very confortable with what I have until now.

[LowRyder2005]

Copy-Vegeta may have been filler, but Copy-Vegeta was still base on Vegeta and his power, while Olibu was his own character Toei completely created.

Which could be TOEI's interpretation of Vegeta's base power, that was never entirely clarified in the anime before (other than Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than a weaker SS Gohan).

And Black didn't kill Trunks right away because he likes to play with his food. He could have just destroy the planet, yet he chose to hunt humans for over a year instead. And even if he was only as strong as Ultimate Gohan, he still would have killed Trunks in his base form with ease if he wanted to.

These are all questionable or moot points:

1. Nowhere it's stated that Black has a desire to "play" with Trunks during their fight;
2. The "he could blow the planet" argument is also extremely questionable, as we don't know if Black could survive in space or survive a planetary explosion;
3. Regarding Black's power, the most logical conclusion with the material we currently have at our disposal at this point is that he's stronger than Trunks, but not enough to one-shot him or kill him with a sneeze. Everything else involves a lot of added speculation.

[Shinomori]

The show didn't present it that way at all. Goku asked Trunks to show him how powerful Black was and Trunks went Super Saiyan 2. Goku laughed and said, okay me too. Goku didn't have to, he just wanted to show Trunks that he can become a Super Saiyan 2 as well. He then shows up Super Saiyan 3. And Trunks full power was literally just him taking out his sword and changing Goku. He didn't exactly power up.

The show has a hard time presenting how powerful the characters are. In this instance, it made it seem like both Goku and Trunks were around the same in terms of strength when they went SSJ2. Trunks didn't seem all that impressed before Goku went SSJ3, but the reality is Trunks should have been able to sense how strong Goku was while in SSJ2. There should have been no comparison at all. Whether what you said is actually true or not, it made it seem like they were at least equal in strength while SSJ2. Even Kid Trunks commented how Future Trunks was pushing Goku back with his attacks.

[dbzfan7]

So is this the fun speculation thread time where we have fun speculations and jolly banter on what we've learned and may see? Or is it the everyone gets angry, only wants to be right, and obnoxious egos go back and forth shouting their statements as cold hard facts? I'm guessing from the looks of it, we're back to the unpleasant part of the thread.

[HeroR]

Copy-Vegeta may have been filler, but Copy-Vegeta was still base on Vegeta and his power, while Olibu was his own character Toei completely created.

Which could be TOEI's interpretation of Vegeta's base power, that was never entirely clarified in the anime before (other than Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than a weaker SS Gohan).

And Black didn't kill Trunks right away because he likes to play with his food. He could have just destroy the planet, yet he chose to hunt humans for over a year instead. And even if he was only as strong as Ultimate Gohan, he still would have killed Trunks in his base form with ease if he wanted to.

These are all questionable or moot points:

1. Nowhere it's stated that Black has a desire to "play" with Trunks during their fight;
2. The "he could blow the planet" argument is also extremely questionable, as we don't know if Black could survive in space or survive a planetary explosion;
3. Regarding Black's power, the most logical conclusion with the material we currently have at our disposal at this point is that he's stronger than Trunks, but not enough to one-shot him or kill him with a sneeze. Everything else involves a lot of added speculation.

He kept Trunks alive for over a year. Yeah, he was playing. Also, if Black Goku had no way to survive in space, how did he get to Earth in the first place and how did he destroy those other planets. And if he can beat up Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, why can't he grind Trunks into dust in his base form or even his Super Saiyan form.

Copy-Vegeta did clarified what Vegeta's power is, rather you agree with it or not. Namely, is base is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, because Copy-Vegeta was just as strong as regular Vegeta. It is nothing like Olibu who Toei literally made up and can make his power whatever they felt like.

[HeroR]

The show didn't present it that way at all. Goku asked Trunks to show him how powerful Black was and Trunks went Super Saiyan 2. Goku laughed and said, okay me too. Goku didn't have to, he just wanted to show Trunks that he can become a Super Saiyan 2 as well. He then shows up Super Saiyan 3. And Trunks full power was literally just him taking out his sword and changing Goku. He didn't exactly power up.

The show has a hard time presenting how powerful the characters are. In this instance, it made it seem like both Goku and Trunks were around the same in terms of strength when they went SSJ2. Trunks didn't seem all that impressed before Goku went SSJ3, but the reality is Trunks should have been able to sense how strong Goku was while in SSJ2. There should have been no comparison at all. Whether what you said is actually true or not, it made it seem like they were at least equal in strength while SSJ2. Even Kid Trunks commented how Future Trunks was pushing Goku back with his attacks.

Once again, Trunks attacked Goku, Goku blocked and took no damage, and he caught Trunks' fists stalling his movements. At what point did it look like Goku was struggling or they were anywhere near equals. Trunks was impressed by how strong Goku was at just a Super Saiyan 2 and was stun when he went Super Saiyan 3. Trunks then tried to go at full power so he can feel for himself how power Goku became and got owned.

Trunks was impressed that Goku was being pushed back instead of tanking, but that is how Goku is and Trunks still did no damage.

[Chiki]

Then we see that base Goku fights Goku Black, and Goku Black is slightly damaged... Maybe the 2 base theory will really be confirmed?

Definitely don't trust the previews with too much detail. All we saw in the preview for certain is that Goku went SSJ2.

I'm also not talking about the two base theory anymore since most people in this thread have started to accept it anyways, so my job is done.

[LowRyder2005]

@HeroR: and again I'm telling you: no, you can't say anything of that for sure. If you have watched the episode some of your concerns have already been addressed.

Trunks' survival: it's hinted that Black only learned to sense ki very recently, and that's why Trunks was able to get under his radar for a while. Besides, it wouldn't make sense for Black to keep him alive for so long given his modus operandi. You'd have to start thinking that his main objective is not killing Trunks, but having him live in fear; it arguably shouldn't be the case. While I may understand Black cornering Trunks for some minutes to get some pleasure out of the whole ordeal, we have no reason to believe that he'd let Trunks run freely for a whole year.

Regarding the planets he destroyed: it has never been shown that Black can survive a planet busting attack and there's no reason to automatically assume he can survive one if his physiology is similar to Goku's. The fact he brought some planets to ruin could simply mean he killed everyone/ laid waste to the planet in general and then moved to another planet.

Regarding Black's movements: As for how he can move, we have not been shown yet, but it's legitimate to assume that he can move whenever and wherever he wants thanks to his ring; unless he possesses Goku's Shunkan Ido as well, which could be another possibility. Assuming he is meant to bust a planet and drift to space until he finds another one is kind of a liberal interpretation, here, since he could (maybe) move spatially with the ring or through some technique.

As for Olibu, I'm not sure on how you still haven't caught my drift: the entire Copy Vegeta mini-arc and therefore's Vegeta's AND Copy Vegeta's power standing may have been a TOEI product. Let's change the example, then. How about TOEI's framework of Super Saiyan Goku >= Pikkon > Super Perfect Cell in the Otherworld Tournament Arc?
I'm saying that the "Vegeta > SS3 Gotenks" axiom may have been something TOEI independently ingrained into Toriyama's framework. You can't say that SS3 Gotenks being inferior to the Base Saiyans was already established in the ROF Arc.

This won't make him less canonical for the anime, sure, but by now it could certainly be interpreted by a viewer a case of random PIS just like Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Perfect Cell or Yamcha beating Olibu in two hits when the latter is stronger than Super Perfect Cell as well.
It's called "pulling a Firelord".

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... -firelord/

[dbgtFO]

As for Olibu, I'm not sure on how you still haven't caught my drift: the entire Copy Vegeta mini-arc and therefore's Vegeta's AND Copy Vegeta's power standing may have been a TOEI product. Let's change the example, then. How about TOEI's framework of Super Saiyan Goku >= Pikkon > Super Perfect Cell in the Otherworld Tournament Arc?
I'm saying that the "Vegeta > SS3 Gotenks" axiom may have been something TOEI independently ingrained into Toriyama's framework. You can't say that SS3 Gotenks being inferior to the Base Saiyans was already established in the ROF Arc.

This won't make him less canonical for the anime, sure, but by now it could certainly be interpreted by a viewer a case of random PIS just like Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Perfect Cell or Yamcha beating Olibu in two hits when the latter is stronger than Super Perfect Cell as well.

Silly LowRyder2005, Paikuhan had a fiery aura against Cell, which means he was using a super attack akin to Kaio-ken. It even featured as a technique of his in some random game, thus it's official!
Also Cell did not have his aura up, so he was obviously not at full power, I thought you'd already know this?

Thus: Olibu =< Weighted Paikuhan < Filler Yamcha < Base Goku < Super Saiyan Goku < Paikuhan < Cell < Random Kaio-ken like technique Paikuhan used < Super Perfect Cell.

And Goku obviously just has one base, it does not matter that he is clearly shown powering up with a certain aura at certain points in the series, while at other points that aura is completely omitted *coughcoughCHAMPAARCcoughcough* It clearly does not mean anything, because Toei are clearly just inconsistent or what have you, even if that one random game differentiates it from normal base. IT MEANS NOTHING!

"But you're contradicting your own logic from the Paikuhan ex-" "SHADDUPP NANANANANANA CAN'THEAR YOU!" *promptly sticks head in sand*

When debates end up like that you know you can only lose.

[ekrolo2]

If the Copy-Vegeta thing never gets mentioned again, can we safely ignore it?

[Bullza]

But there is no indication that Goku absorbed any of the SSG power, and there are already many contradictions to it in the manga. So, unless we later learn that Goku really did absorb the SSG & he can turn it on & off in his base/SS form, we have a plot-hole if the movies & the manga are supposed to be connected.

There's been more than enough. The current material would have to follow the Resurrection F story where Goku had absorbed the SSJG power, he is able to become a SSJB which is the Super Saiyan form of one that has the power of a SSJG, he withstood a blast from SSJB Vegeta, he withstood attacks from Hit that knocked SSJB Vegeta out.

No way. Frost was tired against Piccolo & couldn't one-shot him, and Frost was even more tired against base Vegeta. But even if Piccolo is x8 weaker than SSG, he is still far too strong.

He doesn't have to be 8x weaker. They made it very clear that Piccolo knew he had no chance of winning and the only reason he did so well was because he fought defensively and he's smart.

That is why he did so well. You can come up with "but it wouldn't have worked against this character" but the simple exposure he fought on the strategically and defensively to put up a good fight against someone he had no chance if beating.

Wrong, I'm picking what still fits. There is nothing contradicting the 6/10/15 numbers in the manga so far, while there are contradictions of Goku having SSG power in the manga.

There's no contradictions. It just wasn't said because it wasn't appropriate for it to be said at that time. If it was said there'd be no other issues to be had.

You've read the outline?!

Why would I need to? The outline by Toriyama is being written as a follow up to movies written by Toriyama.

They aren't written to tie in with a rushed adaptation of his story written by someone else.

Which is why Goku can't have the SSG power in the manga. In the movies, he is shown having the SSG power. In the manga, he is shown not having the SSG power.

No he's been shown to have it just like in the movie and the anime. It's just that here it wasn't said because there wasn't time and then they skipped over the next arc.

Base Goku could make Hit bleed with off-guard attacks, SS Goku couldn't do it at all & was stronger than Hit while base Goku wasn't, and SSG Goku could surpass Hit's Tokitobashi & damage him with a regular ki blast.

That doesn't have to suggest huge gaps. In BoG, Base Goku was able to hurt Beerus with a surprise teleportation, SSJ Goku was able to fight on par briefly with a somewhat angry Beerus and SSJG Goku was able to stop Beerus'attack.

[HeroR]

Another thing, God ki cannot be sense if you're not at certain level like Golden Freeza and Hit. When Goku lost his God form against Beerus, everyone sensed him despite keeping the power of godhood. The only form that has God ki is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since it can't be sense by normal people. If Goku and Vegeta were infusion their base with God ki, then they shouldn't be sense, which is obviously not the case.