I'm sorry, but Zeno just seems unoriginal and stupid

[Ringworm128]

I should probably open this thread by saying I actually haven't watched or read Super outside of a couple of clips so I probably shouldn't be criticising a show I haven't even watched yet....

That said, one part I have seen is the introduction of Zeno, and boy was it disappointing. Between the simple design, loli voice and being touted as the big cheese of DB, the moment he/she appeared on screen I just thought "oh come on!" I tried to reason by thinking "this is Toriyama/Dragonball of coarse he/she'll be like that, it's just part of the charm. But the more I thought about it the more I though "no, we've already had this with Fat Buu 20 years ago" The "this person is ultra strong but is super silly/quirky" is just old and uninteresting to the point where a AF fanfic styled "grrr I'm a badass" character would be more interesting and original than another "original" character. I also find it unoriginal outside of DB; I can't think of any examples but I know I've seen this trope done to death before in other media too.

IMO Beerus should have been the last quirky character for awhile.

[Lord Beerus]

The funny thing about that is that in the same arc when Zeno debuted, Toriyama swerved us majorly with Monaka. So I think he's at least aware to a degree that the whole "this person is ultra strong but is super silly/quirky", as you put it, has become a trope that has worn thin within Dragon Ball, hence why he pretty much played it straight with Monaka looking like a weakling and actually being a weakling.

Also, everybody was pretty much expecting Super Shenlong to look weak and, perhaps even be a gag character, and he even ended up looking as grand as the name implied.

[Ajay]

All of the world gods and above have been silly and quirky. It only makes sense for the top of them all to be the most extreme of them all.

I can see why some people may tire of it, but I for one find it hilarious that all of the gods answer to that puny little thing. It's amazing.

I think a tough looking god would been infinitely worse. The Omni-king is a great addition.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm not a fan of the design neither, but I kinda expected it to have the "Small but Powerful" look to it. I think people wanted some badass looking design with huge muscles or something like that. It didn't get it. If I have to rate Zeno's design, it would be a 6/10. Not great or good, but not terrible. I think Toriyama's humor of small but powerful designs has over stay it's welcome.

[Retan]

Seeing as we probably won't ever see him do anything major except maybe get mad at U7 and threaten to destroy it if Goku and others don't do something for him. I don't mind the design. Is it lazy, yes, just like a lot of the DB Universe and characters are.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Zeno is powerful but I think its powerful in an entirely different sense. As in...if you got into a fist fight with Zeno you would absolutely wreck him. However it wouldnt come to that because Zeno just looks at you and you cease to exist.

I don't believe he needs to look tough because I dont believe he is in the usual sense. There are different types of power and Super seems to be introducing them to the DB universe.

[ryou766]

I was never a fan of the god concept in Dragon Ball to begin with. Zeno being around just makes me shrug.

[Sonicjamareiz]

This will never die

[Ringworm128]

This will never die

And why should it?

[Muffin Man]

I just want Goku to eventually become more powerful than Zeno. Part of the fun of the DB series (including GT, even) is how it seemed like Goku would always be able to surpass any opponent no matter how strong, there was no challenge he couldn't meet, no limits to what he could accomplish. But now these gods seem like an insurmountable brick wall and it kind of takes a lot of the fun out of Goku's progression of power. But of course, if he actually DOES surpass them then it will be all the more impressive.

[GodVegetto91]

All of the world gods and above have been silly and quirky. It only makes sense for the top of them all to be the most extreme of them all.

I can see why some people may tire of it, but I for one find it hilarious that all of the gods answer to that puny little thing. It's amazing.

I think a tough looking god would been infinitely worse. The Omni-king is a great addition.

Not entirely true. Beerus looks awesome as hell. He looks like a serious and though badass looking dude. In fact he was the first God toriyama introduced to look this powerful and badass. Which is part of the reason why i love Beerus so much.

[Ajay]

Beerus is a personified cat. Our introduction to him involves him sleeping and eating. He has the capacity to be serious, but let's not pretend he's not just another bizarre god character next to everyone else.

His dual personality is what makes him different and interesting. Just the same as the Omni-king's extremely cute and casual design and approach makes him different from Kaio.

All the gods have their unique twists, but they're silly at heart, and that's what makes them so special.

[GodVegetto91]

Well he sure may have that supposedly funny side to him. But we also know he has a very serious side which involves destruction. But he looks super cool and incredibly fierce. And seriously powerful aswell. Unlike all the other ones. That said i have no problem with Omni-King's design. Though i do hope if they ever were to introduce an even higher god than Zeno i seriously hope it will have a serious design aswell.

[UpFromTheSkies]

"no, we've already had this with Fat Buu 20 years ago"

And we've already had strong characters that look strong.

[Ringworm128]

"no, we've already had this with Fat Buu 20 years ago"

And we've already had strong characters that look strong.

Good point, but my main annoyance comes from the fact this trope has been done to death in more than just DB.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ssAdorable
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteBruiser
Honestly I think it might just be his voice, as silly as that sounds. I've got no problem with that particular voice type, but it just seems like the most typical and generic "moe" voice anyone could think of, which makes Super seem more generic IMO. And it just pushes the whole "Wow this guy is the strongest character there is but he's sooooo small, isn't that funny and ironic?" to cringe worthy levels.

[VegettoEX]

Zen'o... err... that's not moe. Something being cute does not inherently mean it's moe (which is generally complicated feelings toward a younger character that you/the character simultaneously want to protect yet get closer to in romantic ways).

Can we just call a spade a spade here? Most of the justification I'm reading boils down to, "I don't want cute things in my show."

[Ringworm128]

Sorry I'm admittedly not well versed in some anime lingo. What I was trying to say is that he sounds like that "loli" character that's been in almost every anime for the last 10 years, which isn't inherently bad, but the voice itself is just so generic. Nonon from KLK is a good example of using that sort of voice while putting a bit of flavor into it, Zeno on the other hand just sounds like he's been ripped from some bargain bin dating sim.

"I don't want cute things in my show."

I have no problem with cute things being introduced to Dragonball. The Oracle Fish, Puar, Gregory, Fat Buu, Kid ChiChi are all good examples of cute things in DB. My main problem is that Zeno's cuteness is being used for a punchline that's boring because it's been done. It would be like if every wise master/sage type character was a dirty old man like Roshi. By the time Goku got to Kaio you would be yawning.

[JulieYBM]

Zen'o... err... that's not moe. Something being cute does not inherently mean it's moe (which is generally complicated feelings toward a younger character that you/the character simultaneously want to protect yet get closer to in romantic ways).

Can we just call a spade a spade here? Most of the justification I'm reading boils down to, "I don't want cute things in my show."

The character in question doesn't have to be 'younger', just a fictional character in general.

I suppose if I were attracted to males I might call Zen-ou moe, but I don't know enough about his personality to really say for sure. Being adapted from Toriyama notes, I'm not entirely sure the character has the capacity to easily be identifiable as 'moe'.

Sorry I'm admittedly not well versed in some anime lingo. What I was trying to say is that he sounds like that "loli" character that's been in almost every anime for the last 10 years, which isn't inherently bad, but the voice itself is just so generic. Nonon from KLK is a good example of using that sort of voice while putting a bit of flavor into it, Zeno on the other hand just sounds like he's been ripped from some bargain bin dating sim.

A dating simulator probably wouldn't be in a bargain bin. Otaku have a lot more value for things--especially 'useless' things--than your average western fan.

Anyway, Zen-ou would be a shouta character, rather than a loli. There was a huge shouta boom in the early 2000s, although I suspect Toriyama isn't involved with Otaku things, certainly not of this generation.

While I'm at it, Loli characters have been around since the 1970s and have only grown more popular since the 1980s. They've been genuine part of Japanese comics, animation and video game sub-culture long before any of us even began to scratch the tiny amount of the surface of this huge iceberg that we currently have scratched.

[Ringworm128]

Thanks for the info, that's actually pretty interesting, when I think of anime from the 70's to the 90's I think of giant robots and muscle clad men beating the shit of each other. I should proably try and remember that stuff like Cutie Honey existed too.

[JulieYBM]

Thanks for the info, that's actually pretty interesting, when I think of anime from the 70's to the 90's I think of giant robots and muscle clad men beating the shit of each other. I should proably try and remember stuff like Cutie Honey existed too.

There was a big boom in shoujo comics. The recovery from the war was ending and men who were unable to make it in the economy emphasized with the women in shoujo comics. This led to men taking those visual traits and softer storylines and molding them together with their own ideas. Creamy Mami was a huge, unprecedented and unexpected hit with adult men. The series was made for little girls but became something of a precursor.

The 2000s are certainly where 'moe' became something recognized by the Japanese government and mainstream, but the love felt by men and women for cute characters has existed long before that. You can read about its history in interviews with various industry writers, artists, critics and other insiders in The Moe Manifesto, and the general attraction to fictional characters in Beautiful Fighting Girl by psychiatrist Saitou Tamaki. A less in-depth look at Saitou's work can be read here. I also suggest reading Galbraith's papers on Academia and this five-part interview with Henry Jenkins.


Whatever this has to do with Toriyama Akira, though, I have no clue. I've never gotten the sense that Toriyama was an Otaku or capable of the degree of maturity that Otaku express in their sexuality. He's probably a little closer to a maniac, but all-in-all is an original, separate sort of being.