Listen to the fans or not

[Luso Saiyan]

when a whole community shouts together it means they really fuck up

No, it doesn't.

[PsionicWarrior]

No, it doesn't.

So what, are you telling me they were right the way they treated #5 of Super? Please.

If the character won't change the main plot, why add him?.

For side plots? Then eventually linking side plot to main? Beerus can be there all the time with Whis eating but Gohan couldn't be training?

[ABED]

For side plots? Then eventually linking side plot to main? Beerus can be there all the time with Whis eating but Gohan couldn't be training?

If it's linking to the main plot then it IS affecting it. If Gohan is training for nothing, then it's a waste of time.

[PsionicWarrior]

For side plots? Then eventually linking side plot to main? Beerus can be there all the time with Whis eating but Gohan couldn't be training?

If it's linking to the main plot then it IS affecting it. If Gohan is training for nothing, then it's a waste of time.

No hehe, Gohan could be training in anticipation of something that might happen in the future (post-RoF mindset), so when it would appear he's training for "nothing", it can take its sense in a next arc or so.

[Luso Saiyan]

So what, are you telling me they were right the way they treated #5 of Super? Please.

"So what"? You were the one arguing that the amount of people who share an opinion dictate if its right or wrong, which is a fallacy. As for Super, it's not a matter of right or wrong. They put out a product, whose presentation was criticized and they decided to fix/improve it. They weren't obliged to do so, nor would they be wrong had they done nothing at all.

There's a difference between being free to listen to the fans and being obliged to do so. And when it comes to art, fans are part of the audience, not of the creative process. They can influence its direction, but only if the artist wants to.

Making what fans want is, as Gene Roddenberry once said, the same as prostitution. There's no integrity if what drives your art is the question "what do they want?".

[PsionicWarrior]

So what, are you telling me they were right the way they treated #5 of Super? Please.

"So what"? You were the one arguing that the amount of people who share an opinion dictate if its right or wrong, which is a fallacy.

That's not exactly what I said. What I said is if a franchise's popularity suffers it might be worth to reconsider one's position about said direction.

As for Super, it's not a matter of right or wrong. They put out a product, whose presentation was criticized and they decided to fix/improve it. They weren't obliged to do so, nor would they be wrong had they done nothing at all.

Yeah they could also turn the franchise into My Little Poney if they want to, would you still argue it is not a matter of right or wrong?

There's a difference between being free to listen to the fans and being obliged to do so. And when it comes to art, fans are part of the audience, not of the creative process. They can influence its direction, but only if the artist wants to.

Of course but then is also artist's choice to be stubborn and ignore any feedback even if people are with pitchforks at the front gate. I am thankful for Super's improvements.

Making what fans want is, as Gene Roddenberry once said, the same as prostitution. There's no integrity if what drives your art is the question "what do they want?".

Well there is always the option satisfying both creator and majority of followers so integrity is safe and product is shining.

[Nejishiki]

Consider this: What do you do if, in fact, the creators actually feel like they are creating their best product and preserving their artistic integrity in the process? Would it be fair to say that you just don't agree with their vision instead of just assuming they're out to hurt a group of people, in particular?

[ABED]

The best option is to give the fans what they didn't know they wanted.

[sintzu]

The best option is to give the fans what they didn't know they wanted.

That's true but if it keeps failing then it might be time to see what fans are expecting.

They can't do everything we want but they should try to figure out what are the popular demands and see if they're possible within the context of the current story.

[Luso Saiyan]

That's not exactly what I said. What I said is if a franchise's popularity suffers it might be worth to reconsider one's position about said direction.

If they want to.

Yeah they could also turn the franchise into My Little Poney if they want to, would you still argue it is not a matter of right or wrong?

Nice strawman.

Of course but then is also artist's choice to be stubborn and ignore any feedback even if people are with pitchforks at the front gate.

Being true to his/her vision instead of pandering to the crowd (by providing whatever they think is right) is not being stubborn.

I am thankful for Super's improvements.

Okay. Opinion noted.

Well there is always the option satisfying both creator and majority of followers

No, there isn't always the option. It can happen, but it's not a certainty.

[ABED]

The best option is to give the fans what they didn't know they wanted.

That's true but if it keeps failing then it might be time to see what fans are expecting.

They can't do everything we want but they should try to figure out what are the popular demands and see if they're possible within the context of the current story.

I still don't know why you don't understand that fans have different likes and dislikes.

They can't do everything we want

No they sure can't because there's no "WE". There's you and I and a bunch of different people. You and I probably enjoy very different things out of Dragon Ball. I'm sure there's are a lot of overlaps as well.

[PsionicWarrior]

Nice strawman.

I could say the same about your "pandering to the crowd" which I certainly didn't imply but we're having a misunderstanding.

It really depends on context, we can't really say they should listen or dismiss all, I see a grey area which can allow thoughts, reflections and possibilities to link things better.

[ABED]

I think if you have skill as a writer and write what you really want to see, you'll find an audience as it will connect.

[Bansho64]

Yeah, I don't recommend they listen to the fans. Mainly because everyone wants something different out of the show. What is Toriyama supposed to do? Select one group of opinions and ignore the others? That wouldn't be fair and it would create an even bigger divide in the fanbase than we already have now.

[sintzu]

Yeah, I don't recommend they listen to the fans. Mainly because everyone wants something different out of the show. What is Toriyama supposed to do? Select one group of opinions and ignore the others? That wouldn't be fair and it would create an even bigger divide in the fanbase than we already have now.

What about opinions that the majority agree on ? the quality of Super's 5th episode is something the majority agree on so shouldn't Toei take that into account and try to prevent its problems from happening again ?

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Yeah, I don't recommend they listen to the fans. Mainly because everyone wants something different out of the show. What is Toriyama supposed to do? Select one group of opinions and ignore the others? That wouldn't be fair and it would create an even bigger divide in the fanbase than we already have now.

What about opinions that the majority agree on ? the quality of Super's 5th episode is something the majority agree on so shouldn't Toei take that into account and try to prevent its problems from happening again ?

That's not a good example. Everyone obviously wants better animation quality and obviously animation studios know that.

[Luso Saiyan]

What about opinions that the majority agree on ?

They are just that: opinions that the majority agrees on. Not any more valid than opinions that the majority doesn't agree on.

[PsionicWarrior]

Everyone obviously wants better animation quality and obviously animation studios know that.

Uh, it looks like a certain animation studio needed a reminder, had no one complained after #5 the show would probably have stayed that way, less effort for more profit is something recurrent in the industry.

They are just that: opinions that the majority agrees on. Not any more valid than opinions that the majority doesn't agree on.

I really don't understand why is it such a big deal to just consider some opinions. It is also basic humility to admit you're not always in the right.

[ABED]

I really don't understand why is it such a big deal to just consider some opinions. It is also basic humility to admit you're not always in the right.

That also applies to even majority opinion.

[Luso Saiyan]

I really don't understand why is it such a big deal to just consider some opinions.

That's not what I'm arguing.

It is also basic humility to admit you're not always in the right.

And who are you to say that those who don't agree with you (specially on creative decisions) are wrong? Feel free to disagree and share your opinion, but claiming right and wrong requires objectivity.