Listen to the fans or not

[PsionicWarrior]

And who are you to say that those who don't agree with you (specially on creative decisions) are wrong? Feel free to disagree and share your opinion, but claiming right and wrong requires objectivity.

That much I agree with but you seem to say any feedback should be ignored which I don't find a very productive approach. I guess one hot topic with Super is God-ki, I have yet to hear what's so great about and how it doesn't create problems.

[ABED]

And who are you to say that those who don't agree with you (specially on creative decisions) are wrong? Feel free to disagree and share your opinion, but claiming right and wrong requires objectivity.

That much I agree with but you seem to say any feedback should be ignored which I don't find a very productive approach. I guess one hot topic with Super is God-ki, I have yet to hear what's so great about and how it doesn't create problems.

No one is saying a creative person shouldn't get feedback.

[PsionicWarrior]

But you guys are saying fans are enslaving the creator and that the fandom shouldn't be heard, or did I understand the thread wrong?

[ABED]

But you guys are saying fans are enslaving the creator and that the fandom shouldn't be heard, or did I understand the thread wrong?

Who said anything about enslaving? And fans aren't the only form of feedback.

[PsionicWarrior]

Well I'm not going to bother find the quotes but some were pretty dismissing, implying some fandom diktat or so.
I do agree a creator has a vision and should respect its own integrity, and that new surprises rock when well done, I guess the issue I have with the thread is it only propose black or white alternative, should fans be listened or not, that's incredibly restrictive point of view imo and just as some feedback can be absurd, other can be on point and thus should be considered.

[ABED]

Well I'm not going to bother find the quotes but some were pretty dismissing, implying some fandom diktat or so.
I do agree a creator has a vision and should respect its own integrity, and that new surprises rock when well done, I guess the issue I have with the thread is it only propose black or white alternative, should fans be listened or not, that's incredibly restrictive point of view imo and just as some feedback can be absurd, other can be on point and thus should be considered.

It's not restrictive as there are no "the fans". It's a group of individuals all with different tastes. So whom are writers supposed to listen to? Again, it's not that we're against feedback, just not from fans, at least not directly.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's not restrictive as there are no "the fans". It's a group of individuals all with different tastes.

That group of individuals with different tastes all have in common their love for DB franchise and that makes it a fandom.

So whom are writers supposed to listen to?

The ones that are not spouting nonsense I'd say.

[ABED]

It's not restrictive as there are no "the fans". It's a group of individuals all with different tastes.

That group of individuals with different tastes all have in common their love for DB franchise and that makes it a fandom.

So whom are writers supposed to listen to?

The ones that are not spouting nonsense I'd say.

Yes, that's what makes them fans, but how do make specific story decisions when each having their own preference?

So you just give them what they want?

Comic book fans love Venom, but I think most would agree that adding him to Spider-Man 3 was a disaster.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's not really about preferences but more about keeping coherency and try not to create an outrage. Of course is the creator's who's judge to say which feedback is relevant and which isn't. He has every right to dismiss anything but is that the proper course of action to take?

About Venom, was it the fact Venom was there or that the film was awful no matter what?

[ABED]

It's not really about preferences but more about keeping coherency and try not to create an outrage. Of course is the creator's who's judge to say which feedback is relevant and which isn't. He has every right to dismiss anything but is that the proper course of action to take?

About Venom, was it the fact Venom was there or that the film was awful no matter what?

Coherency isn't a suggestion a good writer would need to take from fans, it's a good rule for any writer.

Venom was a big factor. Avi wanted to give the fans what they wanted regardless of the story Raimi wanted to tell. One of the reasons the first two films, especially the second one, work as well as they do is because Raimi is a fan of the material. He knew what he responded to so he didn't have to ask the fans and pander to them.

[Luso Saiyan]

He has every right to dismiss anything but is that the proper course of action to take?

If the suggestions/opinions/feedback he's receiving are not in line with his vision, yes.

[PsionicWarrior]

Coherency isn't a suggestion a good writer would need to take from fans, it's a good rule for any writer.

Again I would like to stress it depends and that not everything is black or white. Let's take power levels example...

[ABED]

Coherency isn't a suggestion a good writer would need to take from fans, it's a good rule for any writer.

Again I would like to stress it depends and that not everything is black or white. Let's take power levels example...

I'm not sure what you mean. How is coherency not a good rule for any writer?

[PsionicWarrior]

Coherency is primordial for any writer not denying that but the thing is, external views of one's work IS important to the creator, this is the strength of people working together constructively rather than just one, others can see things that can escape even the creator's mind or sense. This is why I disagree on dismissing any kind of feedback as if no one should even dare question, being open to what escapes YOU as a creator is a totally different approach than "pandering to the fanbase", "becoming a prostitute", etc.

[ABED]

Coherency is primordial for any writer not denying that but the thing is, external views of one's work IS important to the creator, this is the strength of people working together constructively rather than just one, others can see things that can escape even the creator's mind or sense. This is why I disagree on dismissing any kind of feedback as if no one should even dare question, being open to what escapes YOU as a creator is a totally different approach than "pandering to the fanbase", "becoming a prostitute", etc.

Because we're not (or at least I'm not) saying there shouldn't be any feedback or advice, just not from fans. You keep creating this strawman.

I still don't understand your power level example.

[PsionicWarrior]

Because we're not (or at least I'm not) saying there shouldn't be any feedback or advice, just not from fans. You keep creating this strawman.

How am I making a strawman? You are saying feedback should be welcomed from anyone ASIDE FROM THE FANS? You can't be serious.

I still don't understand your power level example.

I'm no expert, but didn't God-ki created major coherency issues?

[ABED]

Because we're not (or at least I'm not) saying there shouldn't be any feedback or advice, just not from fans. You keep creating this strawman.

How am I making a strawman? You are saying feedback should be welcomed from anyone ASIDE FROM THE FANS? You can't be serious.

I still don't understand your power level example.

I'm no expert, but didn't God-ki created major coherency issues?

I'm absolutely serious and it's a strawman because you keep saying that I and others are claiming that writers shouldn't take feedback. And I didn't say anyone, I said feedback is best if it's from those whose opinions a writer trusts.

I can't think off the top of my head what the God-ki issue would be. I've seen the last two movies, but haven't seen Super, and nothing is jumping out to me as incoherent. Okay, the Blue thing isn't really explained, but that's about it.

[PsionicWarrior]

OK sorry for making a strawman and my apologies as to me feedback comes OF COURSE from the fans, as they are the ones following and loving the series. My mistake.

And I didn't say anyone, I said feedback is best if it's from those whose opinions a writer trusts.

Precisely, who's opinion would you trust more, between, a fan following the series passionately for the last 3 decades, or, someone else in the random?

[ABED]

OK sorry for making a strawman and my apologies as to me feedback comes OF COURSE from the fans, as they are the ones following and loving the series. My mistake.

And I didn't say anyone, I said feedback is best if it's from those whose opinions a writer trusts.

Precisely, who's opinion would you trust more, between, a fan following the series passionately for the last 3 decades, or, someone else in the random?

Fans who have followed the stories for years also bring their own biases. They might not be able to see the forest from the trees. Feedback can come from anyone, critics, fans, editors, friends, co-workers, etc.

[Bansho64]

Precisely, who's opinion would you trust more, between, a fan following the series passionately for the last 3 decades, or, someone else in the random?

But how do we seperate the "good" fans fron the "bad" ones? Also, sometimes those fans who have been with the series for a long time don't always have opinions that the majority are gonna agree with. Not to mention that the fanbases are different all over the world. Who's Toriyama supposed to trust when it comes to fans? It's better to take opinions from editors and other writers. It's also good to take influences from other stories. Taking opinions from fans? It's gonna cause a bunch of different problems.