"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So Vegeta lost 90% of his strength by using Blue against Cabba for like five seconds?

No, he lost 90% of his power because he transformed twice. It is transforming multiple times that drains his power, not staying in that form.

[ekrolo2]

I still can't read it, fucking Croatia.

You're from Croatia?

Yes indeed. The Gotham city if it were a borderline third world country

[Swifticuffs]

Toriyama/Toyotaro antic aside, are people still upset about the 90% power drain thing? Yeah it seems excessive, but Goku seems aware of the fact that Blue drains stamina bad. I know the anime says proper Ki control/calm mind, but that doesn't mean limitless stamina, right?

I'll admit it is slightly puzzling, but it is cool that Vegeta risked the drain to "train" Cabba. It's also kinda stupid and typical Vegeta esque to doubt Hit so much... oh well.

[sayian_nation_]

They just mastered SSJ blue form. I'm sure they need to train more to maintain that state without losing so much stamina.

[Lord Beerus]

I still can't read it, fucking Croatia.

You're from Croatia?

Yes indeed. The Gotham city if it were a borderline third world country

Wow. That's really neat. Sorry about the result against Portugal. But at least you guys didn't blow it against Iceland like we did.

[ekrolo2]

Wow. That's really neat. Sorry about the result against Portugal. But at least you guys didn't blow it against Iceland like we did.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

My opinion on people who care about the lost match

I'm not much of a soccer guy as you can tell lol.

[Lord Beerus]

Wow. That's really neat. Sorry about the result against Portugal. But at least you guys didn't blow it against Iceland like we did.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

My opinion on people who care about the lost match

I'm not much of a soccer guy as you can tell lol.

It's all cool. Being an England fan we're use to two things: Disappointment at times when it really matters and being mocked for showing support of an at best average performance. You know, that actually goes hand-in-hand with being a fan of Dragon Ball Super, now that I think about it.

[Draconic]

Wow. That's really neat. Sorry about the result against Portugal. But at least you guys didn't blow it against Iceland like we did.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

My opinion on people who care about the lost match

I'm not much of a soccer guy as you can tell lol.

It's all cool. Being an England fan we're use to two things: Disappointment at times when it really matters and being mocked for showing support of an at best average performance. You know, that actually goes hand-in-hand with being a fan of Dragon Ball Super, now that I think about it.

Piccolo is Rooney and Gohan Sturridge?

[Pannaliciour]

I find it funny that transforming in ssjb two times takes 90 procent of your ki/stamina but fighting Hit in base and then transforming in ssj and then fighting him again then transforming in ssjg then fighting him again then transforming in ssjblue DOESN'T.

[ekrolo2]

I find it funny that transforming in ssjb two times takes 90 procent of your ki/stamina but fighting Hit in base and then transforming in ssj and then fighting him again then transforming in ssjg then fighting him again then transforming in ssjblue DOESN'T.

It does. Goku gets visibly wounded and winded when fighting him as a Super Saiyan because he needs to think of a hundred different angles and respond accordingly to where Hit can come at him from with Time Skip. He doesn't get tired with the God Forms because 1) he isn't powering up then down then up again in them and 2) he's got the match a lot more in his favor with Red God, meaning he's not pushing himself nearly as hard as before.

[LightBing]

So how does the Blue strain actually happen? Is it when transforming or after powering down? If it's after transforming, it means that Goku and Vegeta won't ever fight at 100%.

So which of this scenarios do you guys envision?

1. Strain occurs when transforming, about 60% decrease each time. This gives us the 90% decrease to Vegeta, after two transformations.
2. Strain occurs when transforming, for each transformation the bigger the strain. Meaning that the first time isn't that severe.
3. Strain occurs after powering down, 90% strain. Happened after Vegeta powered down against Cabba.

Assuming that SSJ God isn't that much weaker than Blue, scenario 2 and 3 seem more likely and make the transformation flawed but viable, when compared to SSJ God.

[Lord Beerus]

Quite frankly, all three of those scenarios are absurd, but it's not down to you LightBing, it's down to he fact that Toyotarō thought it would be a good idea to introduce this new bullshit flaw with SSJB that retroactively makes the battle against Golden Freeza in the manga almost improbable. But, I digress.

If I had to pick, I'd pick scenario 2. Because losing 90% of your strength after powering down just once is ridiculous, in my opinion. And losing at least half of your strength instantly after just transforming into SSJB puts you at an instant disadvantage in battle.

Man, SSJB sucks in the manga. You either lose a lot of strength right of the bat from just transforming into the form or you lose a lot of strength from powering down out of the form or both thing happen.

[LightBing]

Quite frankly, all three of those scenarios are absurd, but it's not down to you LightBing, it's down to he fact that Toyotarō thought it would be a good idea to introduce this new bullshit flaw with SSJB that retroactively makes the battle against Golden Freeza in the manga almost improbable. But, I digress.

If I had to pick, I'd pick scenario 2. Because losing 90% of your strength after powering down just once is ridiculous, in my opinion. And losing at least half of your strength instantly after just transforming into SSJB puts you at an instant disadvantage in battle.

Man, SSJB sucks in the manga. You either lose a lot of strength right of the bat from just transforming into the form or you lose a lot of strength from powering down out of the form or both thing happen.

The narrator note kinda suggests that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to defeat Freeza in the manga. I wish we had that arc drawn.

The Vegeta is 10 times weaker than Goku is present in both the manga and the anime, it's almost certainly Mr.Toriyama plot point. While Kaioken Blue is awesome and I enjoyed it greatly. It isn't thought out, to the point I can only say it's stupid.
Scenario 2 is reasonable, in my opinion. Hopefully it means, improving the form instead of jumping straight into SSJB 3000. It makes Vegeta's and Goku's actual position an imperfection, a struggle. Makes it interesting taking into account that they are stronger than even Hit, the strongest by far in Universe 6, who has the time-skip technique.

[HeroR]

Quite frankly, all three of those scenarios are absurd, but it's not down to you LightBing, it's down to he fact that Toyotarō thought it would be a good idea to introduce this new bullshit flaw with SSJB that retroactively makes the battle against Golden Freeza in the manga almost improbable. But, I digress.

If I had to pick, I'd pick scenario 2. Because losing 90% of your strength after powering down just once is ridiculous, in my opinion. And losing at least half of your strength instantly after just transforming into SSJB puts you at an instant disadvantage in battle.

Man, SSJB sucks in the manga. You either lose a lot of strength right of the bat from just transforming into the form or you lose a lot of strength from powering down out of the form or both thing happen.

The narrator note kinda suggests that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to defeat Freeza in the manga. I wish we had that arc drawn.

The Vegeta is 10 times weaker than Goku is present in both the manga and the anime, it's almost certainly Mr.Toriyama plot point. While Kaioken Blue is awesome and I enjoyed it greatly. It isn't thought out, to the point I can only say it's stupid.
Scenario 2 is reasonable, in my opinion. Hopefully it means, improving the form instead of jumping straight into SSJB 3000. It makes Vegeta's and Goku's actual position an imperfection, a struggle. Makes it interesting taking into account that they are stronger than even Hit, the strongest by far in Universe 6, who has the time-skip technique.

I am not sure how you can say the Kaio-Ken isn't thoughout since it gave a reasonable explanation why Goku couldn't do it after becoming a Super Saiyan, why it works with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why Goku can't just abused it given it's low success rate since it's still incomplete, and it made him sick days afterwards and could possible cripple him for life.

While Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the manga have this horrible drawback despite Goku and Vegeta training the form for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and no form of Super Saiyan ever lost energy just from transforming before. Even Super Saiyan 3 doesn't lose energy just from the transformation process, and such a weakness wasn't even foreshadow, not even in the previous manga chapter when they could have said that the reason Vegeta lost to Hit was because he transformed too many times. This literally comes out of nowhere, which is not good story telling.

[LightBing]

I am not sure how you can say the Kaio-Ken isn't thoughout since it gave a reasonable explanation why Goku couldn't do it after becoming a Super Saiyan, why it works with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why Goku can't just abused it given it's low success rate since it's still incomplete, and it made him sick days afterwards and could possible cripple him for life.

While Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the manga have this horrible drawback despite Goku and Vegeta training the form for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and no form of Super Saiyan ever lost energy just from transforming before. Even Super Saiyan 3 doesn't lose energy just from the transformation process, and such a weakness wasn't even foreshadow, not even in the previous manga chapter when they could have said that the reason Vegeta lost to Hit was because he transformed too many times. This literally comes out of nowhere, which is not good story telling.

Goku turning up the technique to x10, after doing it for the first time which he warned us about the difficulty, isn't logical. If he had such trouble to achieve the technique, wouldn't turn it up to 10 kill him?
Then we have Beerus freaking out at the sight of the regular Kaioken, however he's still stronger than x10 Kaioken Goku? : Previous we had the 10% Vegeta line, which following logic and math would make x10 Kaioken Blue Goku stronger than Beerus.
Plus there's Hit tanking x10 Goku attacks without any power up, since he's "growth" only applied to his technique.
Since you mention the RoSaT, I'll nitpick. How is Vegeta surprised Goku has the Kaioken? They literally came out a few minutes before they traveled to the tournament.

The manga actually foreshadowed the weakness. Since the first fight it's mentioned how they need to pace themselves and be careful with their stamina. I clearly remember people complaining why Goku and Vegeta don't just transform and steamroll the tournament, this both about the manga and the anime.

The anime didn't foreshadowed the Kaioken, I'm gonna quote you "This literally comes out of nowhere, which is not good story telling".

[HeroR]

I am not sure how you can say the Kaio-Ken isn't thoughout since it gave a reasonable explanation why Goku couldn't do it after becoming a Super Saiyan, why it works with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why Goku can't just abused it given it's low success rate since it's still incomplete, and it made him sick days afterwards and could possible cripple him for life.

While Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the manga have this horrible drawback despite Goku and Vegeta training the form for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and no form of Super Saiyan ever lost energy just from transforming before. Even Super Saiyan 3 doesn't lose energy just from the transformation process, and such a weakness wasn't even foreshadow, not even in the previous manga chapter when they could have said that the reason Vegeta lost to Hit was because he transformed too many times. This literally comes out of nowhere, which is not good story telling.

Goku turning up the technique to x10, after doing it for the first time which he warned us about the difficulty, isn't logical. If he had such trouble to achieve the technique, wouldn't turn it up to 10 kill him?
Then we have Beerus freaking out at the sight of the regular Kaioken, however he's still stronger than x10 Kaioken Goku? : Previous we had the 10% Vegeta line, which following logic and math would make x10 Kaioken Blue Goku stronger than Beerus.
Plus there's Hit tanking x10 Goku attacks without any power up, since he's "growth" only applied to his technique.
Since you mention the RoSaT, I'll nitpick. How is Vegeta surprised Goku has the Kaioken? They literally came out a few minutes before they traveled to the tournament.

The manga actually foreshadowed the weakness. Since the first fight it's mentioned how they need to pace themselves and be careful with their stamina. I clearly remember people complaining why Goku and Vegeta don't just transform and steamroll the tournament, this both about the manga and the anime.

The anime didn't foreshadowed the Kaioken, I'm gonna quote you "This literally comes out of nowhere, which is not good story telling".

He clearly said that activating it was dangerous part since it could kill him if he fails. Once it was done, he was able to use it up to X10. Maybe he could have gone higher, but that was too dangerous. The Kaio-Ken used with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is clearly more stable than the original Kaio-Ken since that only works for heartbeat, yet Goku kept the Kaio-Ken on for almost the entire fight with Hit and only got the horrible drawbacks once he deactivated it. Which also make sense given how Goku explained the combination as stable since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan stable ki control can maintain the Kaio-Ken longer and safer. Also, Hit surviving the Kaio-Ken could just mean he has naturally high endurance like Freeza's clan. It isn't like anything of Hit's species is known. It's no more crazier than Hit being able to wreck a god. Also, Goku could have practice the Kaio-Ken without Vegeta noticing since Trunks got stronger than Vegeta without him being the wiser, and Goku went Ultra Super Saiyan on Gohan when Gohan said that Goku did nothing but meditate for several days. We also don't know how Goku practice it. He could have mentally trained himself like Krillin and Gohan when they were traveling to Namek.

Pace yourself because the form can be draining is fine since that have been present in all Super Saiyan forms. Losing 90% of your overall power just being going in and out of a transformation is unheard of in this series, and Vegeta's defeat shouldn't have shocked Goku since he should have known that the reason Vegeta lost because he transformed too many times. If that was said in Chapter 12, then fine, but this literally wasn't brought up until Beerus asked why Super Saiyan God Goku was doing better. And Vegeta looks like a moron because he would have saved energy if he just stayed transformed after fighting Cabba instead of dropping the transformation and then going back to it to fight Hit.

When I said foreshadowed, I meant the reason why the Kaio-Ken works. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan having great ki control was hinted back in the Resurrection 'F' Saga when Whis was telling Goku and Vegeta not to let their ki leak and they started getting blue auras when they did it. So when Goku said that the Kaio-Ken is possible because of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's great ki control, that is something that has been stated for a long time, hence foreshadowing.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan having a 90% energy drop from too many transformations is not hinted on at all outside of a vague line about stamina issues which is true for all Super Saiyan forms and make Goku and Vegeta look like hypocrites for criticizing Freeza for not mastering his golden form when they didn't do the same with three years of training. Also, both Goku and Vegeta in the anime and manga said that they were saving themselves for the last battle, which one usually do in gauntlet, especially if you don't know how powerful your opponent is.

On that 10% Vegeta line, Beerus didn't need that much power to take out Vegeta. Even with all of Vegeta's attacks, he didn't harm Beerus and he slapped Vegeta out of Super Saiyan without trying. So 10% Beerus is much stronger than Rage Vegeta. And Beerus freaked out because he didn't know Goku had a technique that could make him even stronger if he wanted to.

[LightBing]

Him going to x10 is completely arbitrary, it should have been explained. While what they gave us paints a picture, it still presents flaws. The viewers have to guess a lot. That's not good.
If Freeza got punched around by someone 10 times stronger than him, he would die. Bar regeneration, there's no example of a feat of durability that can withstand such a power gap in Dragon Ball. If Hit was capable of it, we had to be informed.
Why does it matter if this handicap is unheard of? SSJ3 insane ki consumption was also unheard of when it was introduced.

Vegeta powering down before fighting Hit, I agree completely. It's poor writing as simple as that.

This has been repeated in this thread many times over, RoF in the manga wasn't seen. You can't make up problems/assumptions based on other sources continuity's. If one's discussion is the manga, you can only use the manga information. The movies and the anime have no place here.

If you don't think the foreshadowing in the manga is satisfying, that's fine. Remember, Vegeta's fight in the manga was the first time Blue got a proper fight and therefore the logical place for it's nature to be revealed.

Regarding the 10% Vegeta line, SSJG is stronger than that Vegeta, Blue is even stronger than God. Obviously if Beerus were to fight Blue, more than 10% had to be used. For me there's no debate, this is a blatant contradiction.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Super late response:
The manga has officially taken a completely different turn from the anime.

This whole SSG return in the manga has screwed my mind up so much... my head hurts man. I understand that the manga told things a bit differently from the anime but Jeezus...

First he transforms into a SS, then a SSG, then SSGSS/SSB, and I don't think I saw SSGSS+KK. Ugh. The manga has confused me so much now. And Hit isn't as strong in the manga as he was in the anime. Can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I preferred the anime over chapter 13's telling of events. I liked it when Hit was shown to be super strong and compete against SSGSS+KK Goku. And I didn't even think that SSB would have such a bad side effect that when used the second time in rapid succession, only 10% of its power can be used. Pretty sure Goku and Vegeta mastered the hell out of SSGSS in the anime.

All of this confusion is pretty much why there is no point in even trying to establish a "Dragon Ball" canon. Man, Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro must really enjoy throwing us all off lol.

EDIT: Oh and seriously, forget Mangastream's translation of how Omni-King speaks. Man, Mangastream makes too many bad decisions translating stuff at times... talk about embellishment. Omni-King might as well of picked up a blunt and smoked it while he was at it in the Mangastream's translation.

[HeroR]

Him going to x10 is completely arbitrary, it should have been explained. While what they gave us paints a picture, it still presents flaws. The viewers have to guess a lot. That's not good.
If Freeza got punched around by someone 10 times stronger than him, he would die. Bar regeneration, there's no example of a feat of durability that can withstand such a power gap in Dragon Ball. If Hit was capable of it, we had to be informed.
Why does it matter if this handicap is unheard of? SSJ3 insane ki consumption was also unheard of when it was introduced.

Vegeta powering down before fighting Hit, I agree completely. It's poor writing as simple as that.

This has been repeated in this thread many times over, RoF in the manga wasn't seen. You can't make up problems/assumptions based on other sources continuity's. If one's discussion is the manga, you can only use the manga information. The movies and the anime have no place here.

If you don't think the foreshadowing in the manga is satisfying, that's fine. Remember, Vegeta's fight in the manga was the first time Blue got a proper fight and therefore the logical place for it's nature to be revealed.

Regarding the 10% Vegeta line, SSJG is stronger than that Vegeta, Blue is even stronger than God. Obviously if Beerus were to fight Blue, more than 10% had to be used. For me there's no debate, this is a blatant contradiction.

I don't see how the Kaio-Ken is arbitrary, unless you're just don't like the number Goku used. Maybe you feel better if he just used a double or something. But the fact is that Dragon Ball character often get hit by moves that should splattered them across the ground, but don't. And Freeza survived a planet exploding on him when he had no ki left, was cut to pieces, and mortally blast by Goku, so it really just an assumption that he would died from a ten times force.

If you're going to bring up a handicap that has never been presented before, you need to give forewarning other than this form takes stamina, which is par the course with Super Saiyan. Goku said after he used Super Saiyan 3 that it burns through his energy and he used up almost his entire day pass just using it for a few minutes. Goku also said way back in the Cell Saga that Super Saiyan is a draining process, hence why Goku and Gohan tried to master their Super Saiyan forms instead of using Ultra Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't just presented as being draining from being used, it drains energy just by the transformation itself. No other transformation in the entire series, Super Saiyan or otherwise, have ever been presented with such a flaw. Golden Freeze burnt out because Freeza wasn't used to it and couldn't maintain his full power for long, the same as his original 100% power. It isn't like Freeza lost power by just becoming Golden Freeza.

And, I'm sorry, Toyotaro not doing the Resurrection 'F' arc is no excuse. He did the promotional manga for the movie, so he knows the script and the minute he skipped that arc, he assumed that people either watched the movie, watched the tv version of the movie, or at least read his promotional manga. You can't just turn around and said he retroactively changed events because he skipped it, especially when you have three versions of that event that are the same outside of some minor differences. If Toyotaro wanted to changed something to make his own version of Resurrection 'F' that showed us the major flaw in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or whatever that was different from the movie other than his promotional manga, he shouldn't have skipped, plain and simple. So no free pass for Toyotaro.

And it is still bad writing since such a big flaw should have been brought in in the last chapter at the ver least when Vegeta was getting his ass kicked. Why didn't Beerus asked why Vegeta has such a major drop in power? Why didn't Goku nor Whis note that Vegeta lost because he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too many times? Why didn't Vegeta berate himself for not keeping his transformation on after fighting Cabba? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprise if Toyotaro just came up with this flaw in this chapter which is why it all came out of nowhere.

I don't see the contradiction. 10% Beerus slapped Vegeta out of Super Saiyan and Vegeta didn't hurt him. So 10% against Vegeta was overkill.

[ekrolo2]

So how does the Blue strain actually happen? Is it when transforming or after powering down? If it's after transforming, it means that Goku and Vegeta won't ever fight at 100%.

So which of this scenarios do you guys envision?

1. Strain occurs when transforming, about 60% decrease each time. This gives us the 90% decrease to Vegeta, after two transformations.
2. Strain occurs when transforming, for each transformation the bigger the strain. Meaning that the first time isn't that severe.
3. Strain occurs after powering down, 90% strain. Happened after Vegeta powered down against Cabba.

Assuming that SSJ God isn't that much weaker than Blue, scenario 2 and 3 seem more likely and make the transformation flawed but viable, when compared to SSJ God.

Powering down then transforming again. To me, it seems Blue functions like Blue KK does in the anime where you'll get tired in it for sure but while you're transformed, the most adverse effects don't affect you. It's only when powering down then powering back up that causes problems similar how Goku's body painfully contorted only after Blue was gone.