Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cabba]

So now, people not wanting to admit or acknowledge the two base theory have resorted to calling it the suppressed God Ki form? It seems like semantics to me and I don't understand the difference.

I woulnt say that, I'm new to the discussion, the suppressed explanation is something i came up while watching the series not as a counter for the two base, i I'm not denying it, since both fit the same narrative
All I'm saying is, why the need to label things? when we know the show is never gonna acknowledge it as a thing (hope I'm wrong on this one). So for example we have Goku with his stronger post SSG(red) base form and goku is then able to suppress or control his power at will so when gauging the power of a cell/majin tier opponent it makes sense for him to suppress his god realm powers (aka where the second base theory is born i assume)

tl;dr
They are both one of the same, just keep in mind the second base is not a thing, it doesn't look like its gonna get acknowledged

Okay our signals were slightly mixed which is why I added the part about you correcting me if I'm wrong and I slight was
My theory was always that Goku absorbed the God powers and it raised the ceiling on his normal Ki by enhancing his physical body. That is why the Kaio-Ken is so dangerous to the user I believe King Kai says so in fact...that Goku shouldnt go beyond x2 (or is it 3?) because his body can't handle it.

So what I think the absorption did was leave God Ki inside him yes...but in an inaccessible way without going SSB or SSG. However the intense level of Ki he absorbed and used throughout the fight prepared his base body to handle the immense base power up.
So basically what I'm saying is that his base is near God level possibly but likely not insanely close. Beerus even says in the movie that he absorbed "some" of the God Ki and not all of it if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not disagreeing with this its a valuable explanation and does not contradict what i said previously
So having said that how do you explain Gokus fight with trunks?
My theory is that he suppressed his god powers he absorbed on Battle of Gods to Gauge Trunks power the old way
It could also just be fan-service and they did not care about the power scales making sense, and the explanation we can come up in our heads to make sense of it is the suppressed or two base theory

Beyond x2 he says he shouldn't go, but then post gravity training Goku can safely go Kaioken x10

having Beerus state that base Goku couldn't beat Frieza

When he said: "In your current state i dont think you were capable", base Goku was on a relaxed state not powering up, kinda like when his base was showing 5000 against the Ginyu forces
and then asks about the super saiyan transformation, how can you be so certain a powered up base goku wouldn't be able to take on frieza

[Bullza]

Captain Ginyu was able to tell that Goku was suppressing his power when he fought the Ginyu Squad.

If someone like him can tell he's suppressed then Beerus would no problem especially when he is also capable of suppressing his power.

[ekrolo2]

Captain Ginyu was able to tell that Goku was suppressing his power when he fought the Ginyu Squad.

If someone like him can tell he's suppressed then Beerus would no problem especially when he is also capable of suppressing his power.

Goku can also get a pretty good estimate of Cell's true strength after just looking at him for less than 2 minutes.

[Cabba]

Captain Ginyu was able to tell that Goku was suppressing his power when he fought the Ginyu Squad.

If someone like him can tell he's suppressed then Beerus would no problem especially when he is also capable of suppressing his power.

He was indeed, but analyze why is that?
He was able to tell his power was at least 60.000 given the info he received from jeeze the way he handled recoom, jeeze and butter, vegeta saw this as well, the others were just too stupid to realize.
Ginyu had the ability to control his ki at will and given how easily goku beat his men, he came to the conclusion that Goku was just like him on that aspect. Even then he could not tell the full extent of his power, same for Goku, when Kuririn asked him if he would be able to beat him goku answered he did not know until he fought him

Beerus for sure could know base goku was suppressing but how could he know or tell the full extent of a powered up base Goku?

Goku can also get a pretty good estimate of Cell's true strength after just looking at him for less than 2 minutes.

But all the same he said he would not be able to know for sure until he fought him, even more at one point he even says IF gohan is incapable of beating him then no one will, and this is him beeing aware of Gohans SS2 transformation. The only thing Goku was almost certain of is that he could not beat him, and that Gohan was the one with the best chances of beating him

[ekrolo2]

Captain Ginyu was able to tell that Goku was suppressing his power when he fought the Ginyu Squad.

If someone like him can tell he's suppressed then Beerus would no problem especially when he is also capable of suppressing his power.

He was indeed, but analyze why is that?
He was able to tell his power was at least 60.000 given the info he received from jeeze the way he handled recoom, jeeze and butter, vegeta saw this as well, the others were just too stupid to realize.
Ginyu had the ability to control his ki at will and given how easily goku beat his men, he came to the conclusion that Goku was just like him on that aspect. Even then he could not tell the full extent of his power, same for Goku, when Kuririn asked him if he would be able to beat him goku answered he did not know until he fought him

Beerus for sure could know base goku was suppressing but how could he know or tell the full extent of a powered up base Goku?

Read my comment above why that's very possible. Also, Beerus isn't that much of a moron when it comes to fighting, hell, he sees Goku's God form once and immediately is able to explain perfectly how it works even now that it's gone.

[TheMikado]

The whole basis for this argument was me telling you that the concept of Piccolo making the kind of massive leap in power that you suggested seems illogical, even by the standards of the series. I don't think the writers intended for us to consider Piccolo to be superior to everyone from the Buu saga, and if they did, that would be the pinnacle of lazy writing.

That's kind of what we are arguing about though. Is Super just completely full of bad writing, a whole degree more than we have ever seen in the series or are there legitimate in universe answers to these questions.

[Cabba]

Read my comment above why that's very possible. Also, Beerus isn't that much of a moron when it comes to fighting, hell, he sees Goku's God form once and immediately is able to explain perfectly how it works even now that it's gone.

Read my edited post, was before this post of yours
I dont think beerus was oblivious to goku suppressing his powers, he just gets straight to business what he is relaly interested in is the SS transformation
Also remember when beerus gets mad at goku when he tells him he was not fighting at 100% as well?

[Shinomori]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

[Lord Beerus]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

Hell, no. Even when Goku was ten times stronger as a SSJB against Hit, Beerus brushed him off as a non threat. SSJB3 Goku would get clowned by Beerus.

[ahill1]

Random note on the "Super" manga. If it's meant to be consistent with the movies & original series, wouldn't base Goku and Vegeta be confirmed as between SS2 and SS3 level at the tournament, hitting low SS3 level by the EOZ, based on the Uub fight?

But that's already impossible based on base Vegeta being > SSJ3 Gotenks.

No, I mean the whole point of bringing up the Super manga in cojunction with the movies is that the Gotenks vs Copy-Vegeta fight didn't happen. So there's nothing contradicting Pure Buu > base Goku at the end of the manga.

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

[LowRyder2005]

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

Well... you're arguably not that far off, yet "canon" is an inherently fickle word in this particular context.
The Super's anime is a sequel to DBZ, therefore it's canonical to Dragon Ball Z (this is furthermore stressed by the fact that it expands upon very specific plot points pertaining only to Z). It acts, however, as a spiritual successor of the manga, if anything because - just as you say - the anime represents the main product of the "Dragon Ball relaunch". And Dragon Ball was a manga first and foremost.
The Super's manga is only supposed to run in parallel to "something conceived with the anime in mind", so there you have it. I like to think of the Super's manga as a Dragon Ball manga sequel myself, but it'd be an arguably "spurious" one nevertheless.

To recap: if you're saying "canon to the DBZ", possible GT integralists aside, you'd most likely be correct.
If you're saying canon, as in "canonical to the original manga", I'd say most people would disagree; it doesn't follow the manga canon, but only the manga canon guidelines that the anime had already inherited.
If you're saying canon as in "coherent with the author's intended worldbuilding" it may be open to personal interpretation: I, for one, find the manga more reliable here.
That is not only because it has less, or less cospicuous, contradictions, but because Toriyama is involved with reviewing each chapter; his exact contributions to the anime other than the story and character drafts are still to be determined. However, extrapolating from his interviews and with some guesswork, I'd say they may not go much farther than that. Moreover, the anime has a fair share of scenario writers from TOEI who most likely are tasked with fleshing out the lesser "mini-arcs" and slice of life episodes both plot-wise and dialogue-wise. These arcs may not have anything to do with Toriyama at all. Yet, someone may interpret them as no less canon than Toriyama's own word: after all, Toriyama did give TOEI's writers the greenlight to write about his work, right?

"Canon" here, but I'd say even in general, is no much different than saying "left" or "right". In modern times, when the original "something made by the original author" definition comes short, it depends on your point of reference.

[RandomGuy96]

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

To quote TFS Chilled, "I change my mind a lot!". But seriously, that was me proposing a theory that the manga is "canon" (well, nog really, since DB has no canon... I guess "in-continuity") to the original manga and movies due to Toriyama's supervision, outlines, and occasional editing. Super would then be the "anime continuity" with tons of Toei stuff that doesn't necessarily apply to the movies and manga. Much like the manga for the original series differs from the anime.

[Shinomori]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

Hell, no. Even when Goku was ten times stronger as a SSJB against Hit, Beerus brushed him off as a non threat. SSJB3 Goku would get clowned by Beerus.

Goku as an SSJ3 has the power to charge his energy to greater limits. Of course we haven't seen this since he tried to do it against Kid Buu, and at the time his body couldn't maintain the SSJ3 form. I think if Goku went SSJB3, combined with this ability and even mixing it with the kaioken, he should be able to surpass Beerus easily.

[TheMikado]

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

Well... you're arguably not that far off, yet "canon" is an inherently fickle word in this particular context.
The Super's anime is a sequel to DBZ, therefore it's canonical to Dragon Ball Z (this is furthermore stressed by the fact that it expands upon very specific plot points pertaining only to Z). It acts, however, as a spiritual successor of the manga, if anything because - just as you say - the anime represents the main product of the "Dragon Ball relaunch". And Dragon Ball was a manga first and foremost.
The Super's manga is only supposed to run in parallel to "something conceived with the anime in mind", so there you have it. I like to think of the Super's manga as a Dragon Ball manga sequel myself, but it'd be an arguably "spurious" one nevertheless.

To recap: if you're saying "canon to the DBZ", possible GT integralists aside, you'd most likely be correct.
If you're saying canon, as in "canonical to the original manga", I'd say most people would disagree; it doesn't follow the manga canon, but only the manga canon guidelines that the anime had already inherited.
If you're saying canon as in "coherent with the author's intended worldbuilding" it may be open to personal interpretation: I, for one, find the manga more reliable here.
That is not only because it has less, or less cospicuous, contradictions, but because Toriyama is involved with reviewing each chapter; his exact contributions to the anime other than the story and character drafts are still to be determined. However, extrapolating from his interviews and with some guesswork, I'd say they may not go much farther than that. Moreover, the anime has a fair share of scenario writers from TOEI who most likely are tasked with fleshing out the lesser "mini-arcs" and slice of life episodes both plot-wise and dialogue-wise. These arcs may not have anything to do with Toriyama at all. Yet, someone may interpret them as no less canon than Toriyama's own word: after all, Toriyama did give TOEI's writers the greenlight to write about his work, right?

"Canon" here, but I'd say even in general, is no much different than saying "left" or "right". In modern times, when the original "something made by the original author" definition comes short, it depends on your point of reference.

Canon talk is back!! Well if we are going that route i would say that there is very little of Super that is directly from Toriyama. What I mean by that we have a fabled outline and actually very few characters designs that I'm aware of by comparison to even GT. Even the deviations in the manga and anime are both too similar and too different to indicate a detailed outline. I.e both the manga and anime have Goku being 10x stronger than Vegeta but in radical different ways. There was even an interview where Toriyama talked about someone else coming up with the idea of Gods and he's glad because he's not sure where he would have taken the story otherwise. Anyway I plan to dig up the interview and designs and create a thread detailing Toriyamas involvement in the Super anime.

[Muffin Man]

That whole "they need other means of growing stronger" speculation you seem so fond of is exactly what made their base forms as strong as they are. It's funny because people seem to ignore or disregard the fact that Goku absorbed SSG ki, even though it was pretty clear.

Goku absorbing god ki was a concept introduced in Battle of Gods. When I criticise Super's dubious power scaling I refer to elements introduced in Super, namely the apparent current relation in power between Piccolo, Future Trunks, Gotenks, Goku, and Vegeta.

If anything you've just supported my point. BoG went out of its way to introduce this new method of achieving power, and Goku outright states that he could never achieve that level through normal training. But then Super just doesn't give a shit about that and randomly has Piccolo and Future Trunks jump toward god level with barely any training and zero acknowledgment. The writers just don't care how strong characters are in relation to each other, and they don't expect us to care.

[dragon boss z]

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

There is no real canon anymore.

[Xeztin]

How strong do you guys think Goku will be once he goes Super Saiyan Blue 3? Will he be stronger than Beerus?

Hell, no. Even when Goku was ten times stronger as a SSJB against Hit, Beerus brushed him off as a non threat. SSJB3 Goku would get clowned by Beerus.

This is pretty much always going to be the case, Goku Super Saiyan rainbow x100 < Beerus just because. I also am not sure if there will be a Super Saiyan Blue 3 or even a 2, I don't even know anymore. In the manga it's like SSG act's as a base and SSJB is multiplying that which should make SSJB2/3 possible but in the anime SSJB can't be a multiplier if Goku can't use SSG in the anime. If it was multiplying his regular base then he shouldn't be on God level in my opinion.

[dbgtFO]

The Super's anime is a sequel to DBZ, therefore it's canonical to Dragon Ball Z (this is furthermore stressed by the fact that it expands upon very specific plot points pertaining only to Z).

I'd say it's the sequel to Kai rather than Z.

According to the latest episode Trunks struggled a bit against Dabra, but managed to obliterate him alongside Babidi. Then he sparred with Goku, revealing he had attained SS2, humorously sparking a whole debate about whether or not he also used SS2 against Dabra, but still struggled against him, implying Dabra ~ Super Perfect Cell level.
Given that Toei clearly can't keep things consistent, evidenced by the fact they drew SS2 Goku with SS hair this episode, while having him with SS2 hair in the next, as it fucking should be(this isn't a Vegeta case, where his hair barely changes due to not having bangs falling down his forehead like Goku, it's fucking easy to get right!!) and the fact that Trunks didn't have consistent bolts of lightning, when he sparred with Goku(only when initially powering up) even when claiming he'd use his max power, I would prefer not to deem it an open and shut case like some seem to be doing.

Of course everyone has already taken Goku complementing Trunks' power as proof he vastly outclasses the top dog in Z, alas this was uttery predictable.

Although logically it is interesting to speculate how much logic Goku is operating under, when he expresses amazement at Trunks' improvement.
He had already been told that Trunks defeated Dabra.
Goku had no way of knowing, if this was a powered up Dabra, so he should assume he had the same strength as the one Gohan fought. Knowing this is Goku thus expressing amazement that Trunks improved that much above what he already knew ie. Dabra =< F. Trunks(vs Dabra) <<< F. Trunks(vs. Goku) or is it just a general observation, that F. Trunks(Cell Games) <<< F. Trunks(Super)??

I for one consider it completely ridiculous that Trunks would have reached anywhere close to Super Saiyan God realm of course and the lack of acknowledgement of Trunks improving since killing Dabra and Babidi leads me to believe he is not supposed to have powered up much since then, if at all. Trunks himself recognizes Black as growing stronger all the time, but he doesn't recognize himself as having grown stronger since then? It would make sense that way, that Trunks would face Black with the belief, that now he has acquired enough strength to beat Black, but being constantly surprised that his foe has powered up again, instead of this lack of acknowledgment we got, if there really was supposed to be a power-up in Trunks' case.

Also @ the two base theory
By definition it's a thing, as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a Saiyan that has the power of Super Saiyan God, who turns Super Saiyan. Thus when not having the power of Super Saiyan God, a Saiyan turning Super Saiyan would just become a Super Saiyan.

[Chiki]

I love how you're calling me arrogant, when it's you who constantly pushes on some ridiculous theory that has not yet once been proven. Then you go on to say that I have horrible arguments, when I personally haven't seen you post anything even worthy of debate. It's always the same nonsense about how real the two base theory is.

Funny you should say that most people actually have started to think it's true ever since the last ep.

The people on Reddit are much more intelligent and reasonable than some here. I mean look at https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... _spoilers/, everyone is being reasonable and saying Trunks is SSJ2 Vegeta level back in the Buu Arc, not saying stupid things like "HE CAN BEAT SSJ3 GOTENKS IN BASE!" Anyone who honestly thinks Base Mirai Trunks > SSJ3 Gotenks should not be taken seriously.

Almost everyone has started to accept the two base theory except a few stubborn folks here like Bullza, supercat, HeroR who aren't very reasonable. The two base theory is the most commonly accepted view in power levels now.

Piccolo keeping up with his training has nothing to do with how intense that form of training was, especially when he lacked a superior sparring partner.

This is Dragon Ball, if character a isn't worn out whereas character b is, maybe it's because character a is slightly stronger...?

I find this nonchalant attitude of certainty especially hilarious because you have no facts to back up your arguments whatsoever. Oh and in case it wasn't blatantly obvious enough, this is an open discussion where people share their speculations; for you someone to say that their theory is the one and only truth not only makes them come off extremely ignorant, but also laughably silly.

No facts? I gave you two Youtube videos.

Here is what you said:

Was there even a need for Piccolo to train during those 7 years?

No.

You clearly implied that he never trained, at all. You simply said there was no need for him to train. LOL

They are both one of the same, just keep in mind the second base is not a thing, it doesn't look like its gonna get acknowledged

The suppressed ki theory you mention is identical to the two base theory, the only difference is that they have different titles.

[Bullza]

Funny you should say that most people actually have started to think it's true ever since the last ep.

No they don't, it's a tiny amount of people who think it might be a possibility . YouTube comments are filled with people saying how Trunks is stronger than Gotenks, 99+% of fans don't even know of this theory for obvious reasons.

You think there's truth to it and you've pushed and prodded at it for so long that you've just become stubborn now.

So what? The two bases is true and the people making the show are aware of this and incorporated it into the series...and yet for some bizarre unexplainable reason they decided to not ever mention, explain or imply it? All the comments made about characters and their power but one of the most important things gets left unmentioned?

And all these little kids watching are supposed to know about this and they had it on vs Frieza but then off vs Frost...but then on again vs Monaca and Gotenks...but then back off again vs Trunks?

They're supposed to know that there's a Base thats stronger than Super Saiyan but which is also supposed to be stronger than another Base which just seems exactly the same? Even though they've only ever presented Super Saiyan as being stronger?

Don't pull a "Oh everyone believes in it now! There's only a few left who don't, we're winning!" because they don't.

I'd understand it if there were some good arguments for it but there isn't, there's nothing. Nobody can give more than a few good reasons as evidence and they can all be countered.

Right now one of the things that is supposed to heavily support this theory is that it's because Trunks is so strong but he shouldn't be!.....in a series where power levels don't follow logic and they become as strong as the plot calls for it.

It's becoming a bit laughable now really.