So who or what is Black?

[GodKaio-Ken]

My guess is still that Zamasu was the Martial Arts Master of Black before something made Black snap or pursue his evil ways. He may or may not really have the physical form of Goku...I don't think it matters. I've been thinking of how this could work a bit today but its not fully fleshed out of course.

I think in the intro where we see Zamasu falling downward he looks very shocked/saddened. One thought I've had is this is actually a flashback to the moment Black betrays him. Imagine Zamasu walks in on Black stealing the Time Ring, they have a confrontation. Black tells Zamasu he is a weak fool more or less and hits him with a decent sized Ki blast. Zamasu falls back and in that moment reflects on what he has created and what just happened, hence the look on his face.

[Swifticuffs]

It may have been mentioned before, and if so I apologize, but does nobody think this is a consequence of Universe 6 Earth being brought back? This is Goku's counterpart in Universe 6's earth. Possibly the cause of it's destruction. He has the ability to traverse time. Perhaps he decided to go into the future because, why not (Toriyama logic) and when he finds Earth, he goes to destroy it yet again? Maybe he does not know about parallel universes, and merely time? I dunno... but I'd bet a ton on this being linked to the Super Dragon Balls and U6 Earth.

However, my theory becomes quite convoluted due to the Cell Arc from DBZ. Gohan destroying Cell in the past didn't affect the future. Multiverse theory, and all that crud. So then why on Earth would the U6 Goku go to the future and blah, now my head's starting to spin... lol.

[Kishido]

It may have been mentioned before, and if so I apologize, but does nobody think this is a consequence of Universe 6 Earth being brought back? This is Goku's counterpart in Universe 6's earth. Possibly the cause of it's destruction. He has the ability to traverse time. Perhaps he decided to go into the future because, why not (Toriyama logic) and when he finds Earth, he goes to destroy it yet again? Maybe he does not know about parallel universes, and merely time? I dunno... but I'd bet a ton on this being linked to the Super Dragon Balls and U6 Earth.

However, my theory becomes quite convoluted due to the Cell Arc from DBZ. Gohan destroying Cell in the past didn't affect the future. Multiverse theory, and all that crud. So then why on Earth would the U6 Goku go to the future and blah, now my head's starting to spin... lol.

Universe 6 isn't Future Trunks timeline

[Kishido]

This is kind of a crack theory, but it seems like the obvious route for a guess based on Black's character design.

So, we already have the Potara. Two people each wear one earring, and they combine (permanently). Black is seen wearing a single earring, which looks kind of like a Potara. There's also a green Kaioshin in the intro. Maybe the green guy is a Makaioshin? And maybe, they have earrings which are similar to Potaras, but instead of merging two people wearing them, split the wearer into two halves.

Possible issues with this theory:

1) Black doesn't seem to have seen Goku before. When they meet, it's as if he's seeing him for the first time.
2) I believe in a previous episode, Black called Trunks a Saiyan, speaking as if he himself is not one.
3) Goku is dead in Trunks's timeline. He also died of that heart virus, which is a natural cause, so there's no easy mechanism to bring him back with Namek's Dragon Balls.

This additional point isn't an issue, but a complication...Trunks mentioned that Black had said he'd destroyed several other planets (or cleared their populations out). If this character is an evil, split Goku, Earth would probably be his first target.

So I guess this isn't very likely at all, lots of holes. Maybe the earring is just a red herring.

We have seen in the JUMP scans that Green Kai has 2 Potaras

[Swifticuffs]

It may have been mentioned before, and if so I apologize, but does nobody think this is a consequence of Universe 6 Earth being brought back? This is Goku's counterpart in Universe 6's earth. Possibly the cause of it's destruction. He has the ability to traverse time. Perhaps he decided to go into the future because, why not (Toriyama logic) and when he finds Earth, he goes to destroy it yet again? Maybe he does not know about parallel universes, and merely time? I dunno... but I'd bet a ton on this being linked to the Super Dragon Balls and U6 Earth.

However, my theory becomes quite convoluted due to the Cell Arc from DBZ. Gohan destroying Cell in the past didn't affect the future. Multiverse theory, and all that crud. So then why on Earth would the U6 Goku go to the future and blah, now my head's starting to spin... lol.

Universe 6 isn't Future Trunks timeline

I'm well aware of that. Doesn't mean a Universe 6 doesn't exist in his timeline as well is my point. So by the Super Dragon Ball's actions, could there be a Goku there? Or perhaps U6's Earth never gets destroyed, as timelines differ right?

Does this make more sense? I know that Trunk's timeline is the future of U7, but that doesn't mean U6 doesn't exist.

[Kishido]

It may have been mentioned before, and if so I apologize, but does nobody think this is a consequence of Universe 6 Earth being brought back? This is Goku's counterpart in Universe 6's earth. Possibly the cause of it's destruction. He has the ability to traverse time. Perhaps he decided to go into the future because, why not (Toriyama logic) and when he finds Earth, he goes to destroy it yet again? Maybe he does not know about parallel universes, and merely time? I dunno... but I'd bet a ton on this being linked to the Super Dragon Balls and U6 Earth.

However, my theory becomes quite convoluted due to the Cell Arc from DBZ. Gohan destroying Cell in the past didn't affect the future. Multiverse theory, and all that crud. So then why on Earth would the U6 Goku go to the future and blah, now my head's starting to spin... lol.

Universe 6 isn't Future Trunks timeline

I'm well aware of that. Doesn't mean a Universe 6 doesn't exist in his timeline as well is my point. So by the Super Dragon Ball's actions, could there be a Goku there? Or perhaps U6's Earth never gets destroyed, as timelines differ right?

Does this make more sense? I know that Trunk's timeline is the future of U7, but that doesn't mean U6 doesn't exist.

And future U6 Goku went after future U7 Trunks?

Doubt it

[Swifticuffs]

And future U6 Goku went after future U7 Trunks?

Doubt it

----

Either way, piecing together this crud never works... as foolishly as I try. I mean why else make the U6 revival with the SDBs be the end of a major arc and not have something to do with this one? Guess we'll learn. He's probably more to do with the Kaioshin.

[Chiki]

Hi everyone. Just like everyone else, I've been intrigued by the appearance of an evil Goku in DBS. I find it weird that there's someone who looks exactly like Goku and calls himself Son Goku to act so completely differently compared to him, and just like everyone else I've been trying to come up with explanations for it. But I think that I've finally found the true explanation planned out by Toriyama himself for this arc after rewatching DB and DBZ Kai.

Goku has done a lot of questionable things as the supposed "protagonist" of DB and DBZ. This makes me think that Goku has been hiding his evil nature all along, and he is secretly evil.

For example, he let the most evil guy around, Frieza, live after he killed his best friend Krillin and probably millions of life forms before that. This means that Goku has a questionable morality. i.e. he doesn't actually care about evil guys killing people or doing immoral actions. He didn't even have the decency to kill Frieza when he had the chance to, allowing Frieza to go ahead and become the emperor of evil again and kill millions of more people. So I think he has no problem with his friend Krillin exploding into a million pieces because he's not a good guy at all.

Second, Goku is a well known example of domestic violence in DBZ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL1aGyPBZ04 He viciously beat up Chi-Chi soon after coming back to Earth after defeating Frieza. He broke a lot of her bones and it took months for the wounds to heal.

Third, Goku continued his rivalry with Vegeta in the Buu arc knowing full well that fighting him would cause the revival of Majin Buu. Now this is a completely immoral and irresponsible act, and if he cared about being a good guy at all, he wouldn't have done this. Just look at what Future Trunks did in his version of the Buu arc: he defeated Dabura and Babidi before they caused him any problems. SSJ2 Goku could have easily done this as well, it's an embarrassment for a good guy to not have done it. But Goku isn't a good guy.

Fourth, Goku refused to even kill Majin Buu EVEN THOUGH HE CAUSED HIS REVIVAL though he could have when he went SSJ3, he even said so himself. What kind of a psycho would allow that? He let Majin Buu kill millions of people and eventually destroy the Earth. He "wanted to give the kids a chance," probably knowing full well that the kids wouldn't have been able to beat Buu since they're well, kids. Goku was probably enjoying the destruction Buu was causing.

You guys can come up with more examples of Goku hiding his evil nature throughout the DB series. But right now, I think I've proven that Goku has been secretly evil all this time since he is a terrible good guy, and now I want to give you guys my version of his life story.

Goku was the child of a Kaioshin (Zamasu) and Bardock's sister. He was sent to Earth by Zamasu (with the Time Ring and the Potara that Goku has been hiding for years) in order to conquer it, but he was under orders to become stronger and stronger by facing a lot of other bad guys. So that's what happened in DB and DBZ: he faced a lot of bad guys to make himself stronger in order to prepare to conquer Earth, so that no one could challenge his rule. He married Chi-Chi in order to keep up his good guy act and even had kids with her for the same reason.

When the Frieza arc finally came and he unlocked the Super Saiyan ability, he decided to fake a heart virus (his reactions were extremely exaggerated as seen in the anime, people don't yell like that over heart viruses in real life) because he decided he was strong enough and that he could conquer Earth. In the future timeline, he "died" (he just faked it) and left Earth, conquering other planets while training as the Androids were messing up Earth. Goku eventually came back and that's who Goku Black is; he's just Future Goku.

Present Goku couldn't "die" from the heart virus because Trunks gave him an antidote. And the androids in this time were stronger, plus Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, so he decided to stay around for much longer than normal and hide his evil nature. This worked out well for him because he even reached power levels such as SSB Kaioken x10. He's just biding his time until he becomes more powerful than Whis and Beerus, at which point he will turn into Goku Black and conquer Earth again.

Thoughts?

[GodKaio-Ken]

Hi everyone. Just like everyone else, I've been intrigued by the appearance of an evil Goku in DBS. I find it weird that there's someone who looks exactly like Goku and calls himself Son Goku to act so completely differently compared to him, and just like everyone else I've been trying to come up with explanations for it. But I think that I've finally found the true explanation planned out by Toriyama himself for this arc after rewatching DB and DBZ Kai.

Goku has done a lot of questionable things as the supposed "protagonist" of DB and DBZ. This makes me think that Goku has been hiding his evil nature all along, and he is secretly evil.

For example, he let the most evil guy around, Frieza, live after he killed his best friend Krillin and probably millions of life forms before that. This means that Goku has a questionable morality. i.e. he doesn't actually care about evil guys killing people or doing immoral actions. He didn't even have the decency to kill Frieza when he had the chance to, allowing Frieza to go ahead and become the emperor of evil again and kill millions of more people. So I think he has no problem with his friend Krillin exploding into a million pieces because he's not a good guy at all.

Second, Goku is a well known example of domestic violence in DBZ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL1aGyPBZ04 He viciously beat up Chi-Chi soon after coming back to Earth after defeating Frieza. He broke a lot of her bones and it took months for the wounds to heal.

Third, Goku continued his rivalry with Vegeta in the Buu arc knowing full well that fighting him would cause the revival of Majin Buu. Now this is a completely immoral and irresponsible act, and if he cared about being a good guy at all, he wouldn't have done this. Just look at what Future Trunks did in his version of the Buu arc: he defeated Dabura and Babidi before they caused him any problems. SSJ2 Goku could have easily done this as well, it's an embarrassment for a good guy to not have done it. But Goku isn't a good guy.

Fourth, Goku refused to even kill Majin Buu EVEN THOUGH HE CAUSED HIS REVIVAL though he could have when he went SSJ3, he even said so himself. What kind of a psycho would allow that? He let Majin Buu kill millions of people and eventually destroy the Earth. He "wanted to give the kids a chance," probably knowing full well that the kids wouldn't have been able to beat Buu since they're well, kids. Goku was probably enjoying the destruction Buu was causing.

You guys can come up with more examples of Goku hiding his evil nature throughout the DB series. But right now, I think I've proven that Goku has been secretly evil all this time since he is a terrible good guy, and now I want to give you guys my version of his life story.

Goku was the child of a Kaioshin (Zamasu) and Bardock's sister. He was sent to Earth by Zamasu (with the Time Ring and the Potara that Goku has been hiding for years) in order to conquer it, but he was under orders to become stronger and stronger by facing a lot of other bad guys. So that's what happened in DB and DBZ: he faced a lot of bad guys to make himself stronger in order to prepare to conquer Earth, so that no one could challenge his rule. He married Chi-Chi in order to keep up his good guy act and even had kids with her for the same reason.

When the Frieza arc finally came and he unlocked the Super Saiyan ability, he decided to fake a heart virus (his reactions were extremely exaggerated as seen in the anime, people don't yell like that over heart viruses in real life) because he decided he was strong enough and that he could conquer Earth. In the future timeline, he "died" (he just faked it) and left Earth, conquering other planets while training as the Androids were messing up Earth. Goku eventually came back and that's who Goku Black is; he's just Future Goku.

Present Goku couldn't "die" from the heart virus because Trunks gave him an antidote. And the androids in this time were stronger, plus Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, so he decided to stay around for much longer than normal and hide his evil nature. This worked out well for him because he even reached power levels such as SSB Kaioken x10. He's just biding his time until he becomes more powerful than Whis and Beerus, at which point he will turn into Goku Black and conquer Earth again.

Thoughts?

He can ride the Nimbus. Case closed.

[Ozotto]

I think Black is just using Goku's appearance as a disguise for whatever reason.
Probably with the use of magic or something to look that way.

He's probably actually a Kai or something like that.

I'm more interested to know his back story/ reason for the moniker, and his purpose/ reason for what he does and why he does it.

I'm getting a butt hurt revenge feel from him for something an other world Goku did to him or something in Trunks' time line.
Probably bested him in some tournement or for a position, and was like, yeah well your dead, so i'm gonna go mess up your earth, and nothing you can do about it.

[dbgtFO]

Black calls himself Son Goku.
I'll assume that's the truth until otherwise noted(a forthcoming episode seems to point at his real identity being revealed) and work that into my theory:

So I propose that this Goku Black arc is heavily inspired by Toyble/Toyotaro's AF doujinshi. "Goku Black" is the stand-in for Xicor and Zamasu is the stand-in for Lila, the West Kaioshin(interestingly both of them are named Kaioshin, rather than just known by their titles).

Zamasu is the mastermind behind all this. For some reason he has fallen into darkness(the updated opening has him falling with black leaves/dots/something black surrounding him). Perhaps his origin story and reason for turning evil ties into Zeno destroying those 6 universes.
Ditching the title of Kaioshin he now just goes by his name, because he doesn't want to see himself as part of Zeno's world order, but instead as his own individual being outside the role assigned to him.
For some reason he enlists Son Goku.

I propose Goku Black came to be by Zamasu infecting him with the heart virus Goku died of in the Future Timeline, but was healed of in the main timeline.
Basically like with AF Goku somehow came into contact with Zamasu on his way home from Yardrat, but instead of getting his dna swiped, he now somehow got infected with a magical heart virus, that upon its host's death would reanimate the body as an underling of Zamasu. So in the Future Timeline Zamasu succeeded and basically has control over Goku, who has powered up immensely under his new master's tutelage and has gone about doing his job of destroying planets for some reason, which will obviously be revealed in series.
Trunks also mentions he received instructions from Kaioshin.. while the natural assumption would be that it's just regular old East Kaioshin, there could be a huge reveal, that the Kaioshin was Zamasu, who had for some reason helped Trunks.
Also like Cell, Zamasu from the main timeline could be in a weak state until his chosen underling came and freed him/saved him whatever.

[HeroR]

Black calls himself Son Goku.
I'll assume that's the truth until otherwise noted(a forthcoming episode seems to point at his real identity being revealed) and work that into my theory:

So I propose that this Goku Black arc is heavily inspired by Toyble/Toyotaro's AF doujinshi. "Goku Black" is the stand-in for Xicor and Zamasu is the stand-in for Lila, the West Kaioshin(interestingly both of them are named Kaioshin, rather than just known by their titles).

Zamasu is the mastermind behind all this. For some reason he has fallen into darkness(the updated opening has him falling with black leaves/dots/something black surrounding him). Perhaps his origin story and reason for turning evil ties into Zeno destroying those 6 universes.
Ditching the title of Kaioshin he now just goes by his name, because he doesn't want to see himself as part of Zeno's world order, but instead as his own individual being outside the role assigned to him.
For some reason he enlists Son Goku.

I propose Goku Black came to be by Zamasu infecting him with the heart virus Goku died of in the Future Timeline, but was healed of in the main timeline.
Basically like with AF Goku somehow came into contact with Zamasu on his way home from Yardrat, but instead of getting his dna swiped, he now somehow got infected with a magical heart virus, that upon its host's death would reanimate the body as an underling of Zamasu. So in the Future Timeline Zamasu succeeded and basically has control over Goku, who has powered up immensely under his new master's tutelage and has gone about doing his job of destroying planets for some reason, which will obviously be revealed in series.
Trunks also mentions he received instructions from Kaioshin.. while the natural assumption would be that it's just regular old East Kaioshin, there could be a huge reveal, that the Kaioshin was Zamasu, who had for some reason helped Trunks.
Also like Cell, Zamasu from the main timeline could be in a weak state until his chosen underling came and freed him/saved him whatever.

Several questions.

How did a magical heart virus get cured by Earth science? And wouldn't Goku's body go straight to the afterlife like when he died the first time, and even if it didn't Japanese culture rarely bury their dead. They're cremated, which I think is done in the Dragon World. I also don't see the real point of killing Goku and raising him as a zombie. Seems mind-control or whatever could be more practical than that.

I also read a summary of AF and Xicor, and that story makes no sense at all.

[dbgtFO]

Yes, I also had another theory again related to the heart virus, that Zamasu would just go to the afterlife and take control of Goku there, so I didn't have to worry about the feasibility of random earth medicine curing a magical heart virus, but that would also be troublesome due to Kaio and all that stuff, though he may just have gone to Kaio's World directly, since Kaio did not even know what the real Kaioshin looked like, so he would be none the wiser.

Also the only times the idea of disposing of a body comes up without involving eating the corpse as per Yajirobe, the characters have talked about burying it in the ground, without ever mentioning cremation(Bora's death, Kid Goku's supposed death, Vegeta's supposed death, Vegeta's 1st death).

I personally liked the AF Story

[Chiki]

He can ride the Nimbus

We talked about this on Reddit. You need to be pure of heart to ride it, but that doesn't mean purely good. You could also be pure evil.

[HeroR]

Yes, I also had another theory again related to the heart virus, that Zamasu would just go to the afterlife and take control of Goku there, so I didn't have to worry about the feasibility of random earth medicine curing a magical heart virus, but that would also be troublesome due to Kaio and all that stuff, though he may just have gone to Kaio's World directly, since Kaio did not even know what the real Kaioshin looked like, so he would be none the wiser.

Also the only times the idea of disposing of a body comes up without involving eating the corpse as per Yajirobe, the characters have talked about burying it in the ground, without ever mentioning cremation(Bora's death, Kid Goku's supposed death, Vegeta's supposed death, Vegeta's 1st death).

I personally liked the AF Story

I recall that when Goku left to go to Kami's Lookout the first time so he can restore the Dragon Balls, he asked Bulma and the others not to burn Krillin and the other's bodies.

The story of AF could have been somewhat interesting, if Xicor had more of a personality than a Broly expy. Seriously, Xicor's only trait is being super powerful. He's one of the most generic villains I have read, despite the interesting backstory with an underline bit a tragic. And Xicor's design sucks. It reminds me of a Sonic character. The Supreme Kai wanting revenge against the heavens for being abandoned after fighting Buu is good, but it's wasted by her randomly attacking Earth and trying to kill all of Goku's kids and family.

[GodKaio-Ken]

He can ride the Nimbus

We talked about this on Reddit. You need to be pure of heart to ride it, but that doesn't mean purely good. You could also be pure evil.

This is a huge stretch and not at all how the Nimbus is stated to work. When an Author states what something is he shouldnt have to directly state what it isn't as well...its very obviously implied.

[Chiki]

He can ride the Nimbus

We talked about this on Reddit. You need to be pure of heart to ride it, but that doesn't mean purely good. You could also be pure evil.

This is a huge stretch and not at all how the Nimbus is stated to work. When an Author states what something is he shouldnt have to directly state what it isn't as well...its very obviously implied.

Well it makes sense since we never saw anyone evil ride the Nimbus except Goku.

Also, Goku gave Cell a Senzu so he could watch Cell beat the shit out of his son with a smile on his face.

[KayDash]

I think Black is there, to destroy Trunks' timeline, because it shouldn't exists. I'll explain:
Obviously when Future Trunks went back in time, he created a new past, where Goku stayed alive, but Trunks' future remained the same. So it's a different past now which won't lead to the future that Trunks came from, but that future still exists, despite it shouldn't. So it should be fixed. Who can fix things like these in DB? Deities.
So there are the Kais who create things and watch over the universe, and the God of Destructions who, well, destroy them. There's also the Kai of Time who watches over time, but what if there's also a "God of Destruction of Time"? What if Zamasu is that person, and Goku Black is his creation, a demonic entity made for destroying Trunks' time/world.
Think about it, Goku Black said he already destroyed a few planets there, and he is hunting for Trunks (a time-travel rule breaker) and refers to him as a saiyan which might imply he is not from that race. We also doesn't seen him transforming or anything, and has a power in his normal state that can be compared to an SSJ3 Goku who already had the SSG power absorbed to his normal state. Trunks can likely sense Black's ki (or maybe not, but one of the past scenes hints that), which can mean that it's not god-ki. Sure, he can be stronger then even SSB Goku in his base form if that's what the writers want, but I really think that with that power he is not a saiyan, just in appearence.
Goku Black has a green earring, but with different shade and shape from the U6 Kais'. Zamasu has orange ones, Kai of Time & U7 Kais have identical yellow ones. So Black is might not be releated to them after all, maybe he just killed a Kai and took his potara (and time ring). But I wonder which Kai has a light green earring like that? I also wonder if those potaras have maybe different power, not just fusion? Maybe they work like the rings in Dark Souls or sumthin.
But even if Zamasu actually turns out to be a good guy, I'd still bet on Black's existence being tied to the anomaly that Trunks caused with his time travel. Like Trunks changes history, by saving Goku with the medicine and then time fixing itself by creating an Anti-Goku who destroys the redundant timeline of Future Trunks.(or also punishing him)
What do you think?

[buutenks]

Toriyama did say iirc that its a bit complicate but will make sense in the end. So i guess black'sidentity and origin arent simple.

Though i do love the mystery.

[ClinicalBM]

Posted this on watchdragonballsuper -

Theory of mine for Goku Black, might be close to the truth, as it’s the only thing I can think of which actually makes “sense” in DB terms that is. Despite Trunks significantly changing history for the current timeline, his world when going back remained the same. (Goku, Gohan etc still Dead). So time travel in DB, simply creates alternative timelines. It’s a paradox I guess. Both events happened one just earlier and the other went into another direction.
In my theory God King Zamasu (likely an evil green supreme kai/Makaiōshin) used the time-ring to kidnap baby Goku at some point pre him falling on his head on earth and becoming “pure” after seeing his insane potential during a later saga. Knowing that there was no way to change his purehearted good character in any other way, he travelled back in time with the time-ring and took him under his wing.

Then he basically trained him in Darkness and unleashed all his dark potential. Making him eventually reach God mode Black (I believe he will have his own SSJG transformation). In contrast to mystic Gohan (good) transformation the elderly supreme Kai did to Gohan during the Buu saga.
I’m sure it’s Goku though, from the same universe 7. Just a different/alternative timeline altogether, training and upbringing. Much like Trunks is future Trunks, just from an alternative timeline, Black Goku thus created by time-travel by this evil green supreme Kai.
Black Goku thus has a totally different character and is basically how Goku would have been and worse (extra unscrupulously evil/black intensified training) and all powerful, had he not landed on earth and hit his head.

He doesn’t feel as a Saiyan as he was raised by a God and simply/practically became one through sheer power eventually as well. His base black form looks a lot like the standard SSJ God mode as well, just without the red hair.