There's nothing to deal with. Maybe accept that Super's power-scale is very flawed. The two Base theory does nothing but make Goku and Vegeta look stupid, anyway. "I can beat you with my Base power, but let me transform to prove a point so I can conserve my Base power just because I can."Chiki wrote:And then we have to deal with how Piccolo and Future Trunks gained god power without training with Whis. We've been through this already and there's no need to repeat it.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Or he absorbed the God Power and became a lot more powerful overall. Less complicated and actually goes along with what is shown.
Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Piccolo and Trunks didn't gain God power. Goku said that Piccolo stood no chance against Frost and Piccolo agreed. He only did as well as he did against Frost because Frost got tossed around like a doll by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand before he poisoned him. Frost also said he barely had any strength left and couldn't kill Piccolo. And Piccolo said that Frost's fatal mistake was underestimating him, basically saying Frost held back since he was stronger.Chiki wrote:And then we have to deal with how Piccolo and Future Trunks gained god power without training with Whis. We've been through this already and there's no need to repeat it.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Or he absorbed the God Power and became a lot more powerful overall. Less complicated and actually goes along with what is shown.
Trunks did nothing against Goku. Trunks attacked and Goku blocked without taking any damage. He then easily caught Trunks' fists and smiled. Nothing in that 'fight' showed Trunks on Goku's level, other than Goku going Super Saiyan 2 to show off instead of staying in base form and no selling Trunks' attacks like Copy-Vegeta did against Gotenks.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
You don't understand. Half of his energy according to view 2 is his regular ki, which he had in BoG. On top of that he has SSG power.HeroR wrote:Why would half God energy be sense? That doesn't even make sense and no such thing has been hinted or stated.
Goku didn't have to learn to compensate. He kept the power of godhood without even realizing he did it. Super Saiyan God became his base naturally without the need for God energy, which is why Beerus called Goku a genius.
I personally prefer view 1.
Maybe he learned how to compensate without even realizing it? I learned how to speak English as a kid without realizing it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
For people who believe the 2 base theory is true, what is Vegeta's second base if Goku's second base is the red hair form.
I still don't get how people can say there is 2 bases when It has never been stated anywhere. It is too big a detail to leave out if true.
I still don't get how people can say there is 2 bases when It has never been stated anywhere. It is too big a detail to leave out if true.
Piccolo never said he had no chance of winning and you forget that Frost could do nothing to Piccolo so it would have ended with a Piccolo win or in stalemate.HeroR wrote:Piccolo and Trunks didn't gain God power. Goku said that Piccolo stood no chance against Frost and Piccolo agreed. He only did as well as he did against Frost because Frost got tossed around like a doll by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand before he poisoned him. Frost also said he barely had any strength left and couldn't kill Piccolo. And Piccolo said that Frost's fatal mistake was underestimating him, basically saying Frost held back since he was stronger.Chiki wrote:And then we have to deal with how Piccolo and Future Trunks gained god power without training with Whis. We've been through this already and there's no need to repeat it.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Or he absorbed the God Power and became a lot more powerful overall. Less complicated and actually goes along with what is shown.
Trunks did nothing against Goku. Trunks attacked and Goku blocked without taking any damage. He then easily caught Trunks' fists and smiled. Nothing in that 'fight' showed Trunks on Goku's level, other than Goku going Super Saiyan 2 to show off instead of staying in base form and no selling Trunks' attacks like Copy-Vegeta did against Gotenks.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Beerus said Goku absorbed godhood into his body, not compensated from the lack of God energy. Meaning he took the world of the gods into his own energy, aka regular ki. Which is how Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God without being a God anymore.Chiki wrote:You don't understand. Half of his energy according to view 2 is his regular ki, which he had in BoG. On top of that he has SSG power.HeroR wrote:Why would half God energy be sense? That doesn't even make sense and no such thing has been hinted or stated.
Goku didn't have to learn to compensate. He kept the power of godhood without even realizing he did it. Super Saiyan God became his base naturally without the need for God energy, which is why Beerus called Goku a genius.
I personally prefer view 1.
Maybe he learned how to compensate without even realizing it? I learned how to speak English as a kid without realizing it.
And again, nothing has been hinted or shown that Goku use half God energy or whatever. In fact, half God energy isn't a thing anyway in any Dragon Ball media.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Well it was true for Battle of Gods before he fought Beerus but there's nothing to say it's true ever since then.Cabba wrote:But this is what was shown on Battle of Gods or you do not consider that to be relevant anymore?
I gave a breakdown of your points (again) and you still haven't addressed it. Do you have anything to counter what I said about your post because you don't seem to.Chiki wrote:Bullza keeps constantly repeating that only a few people have even thought of and discussed the two base theory.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Could someone tell me how this two Base theory originated?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Untill trunks makes goku struggle, i dont think there is a need to place him at goku's lvl.
As for ff frost, idk, goku thought he was weak, so who knows if he could even beat base goku.
Plus db super power levels are a bit flawed and allot of stuff is unexplained.
As i said before, most current characters r above buu saga characters, but nowhere near ssg,ssgss etc.
As for ff frost, idk, goku thought he was weak, so who knows if he could even beat base goku.
Plus db super power levels are a bit flawed and allot of stuff is unexplained.
As i said before, most current characters r above buu saga characters, but nowhere near ssg,ssgss etc.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Piccolo asked Frost to go into a lower form. He knew he stood little to no chance against Frost's final form and even asked Goku if he should forfeit against Frost. So he knew he didn't have a real chance. He only did well by fighting smart and Frost taking it easy on him since he thought Piccolo was a sure win. And he was weakened by Goku.namekiansaiyan wrote:For people who believe the 2 base theory is true, what is Vegeta's second base if Goku's second base is the red hair form.
I still don't get how people can say there is 2 bases when It has never been stated anywhere. It is too big a detail to leave out if true.
Piccolo never said he had no chance of winning and you forget that Frost could do nothing to Piccolo so it would have ended with a Piccolo win or in stalemate.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Goku never thought Frost was weak. Maybe in the manga, but not in the anime. And Frost's third form hit Goku when Freeza's true form couldn't touch Goku without cheating. It's really questionable if Goku could beat Frost's true form in his base.buutenks wrote:Untill trunks makes goku struggle, i dont think there is a need to place him at goku's lvl.
As for ff frost, idk, goku thought he was weak, so who knows if he could even beat base goku.
Plus db super power levels are a bit flawed and allot of stuff is unexplained.
As i said before, most current characters r above buu saga characters, but nowhere near ssg,ssgss etc.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
I just think you're too stubborn to debate with.Bullza wrote:Well it was true for Battle of Gods before he fought Beerus but there's nothing to say it's true ever since then.Cabba wrote:But this is what was shown on Battle of Gods or you do not consider that to be relevant anymore?
I gave a breakdown of your points (again) and you still haven't addressed it. Do you have anything to counter what I said about your post because you don't seem to.Chiki wrote:Bullza keeps constantly repeating that only a few people have even thought of and discussed the two base theory.
Base Vegeta had to turn SSJ to OHKO Frost, which he should have been able to do in Base if he had SSG power. Therefore he didn't have SSG power in Base. Neither did Goku.Piccolo and Trunks didn't gain God power. Goku said that Piccolo stood no chance against Frost and Piccolo agreed. He only did as well as he did against Frost because Frost got tossed around like a doll by Super Saiyan Goku and could barely stand before he poisoned him. Frost also said he barely had any strength left and couldn't kill Piccolo. And Piccolo said that Frost's fatal mistake was underestimating him, basically saying Frost held back since he was stronger.
Trunks did nothing against Goku. Trunks attacked and Goku blocked without taking any damage. He then easily caught Trunks' fists and smiled. Nothing in that 'fight' showed Trunks on Goku's level, other than Goku going Super Saiyan 2 to show off instead of staying in base form and no selling Trunks' attacks like Copy-Vegeta did against Gotenks.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
I just think you're too stubborn to debate with.
You made 5 points in that thread. I said 5 things to counter what you said.
I'm asking seriously what you have to say about what I said. If you think there's something to this theory then you must have something to argue against it.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Well alright, I'll reply this once but I'm not interested in replying again:Bullza wrote:I just think you're too stubborn to debate with.Nah don't play that card. You're stubborn and I still commented on what you said.
You made 5 points in that thread. I said 5 things to counter what you said.
I'm asking seriously what you have to say about what I said. If you think there's something to this theory then you must have something to argue against it.
I already mentioned just a day or two ago that Frost gets more combat experience than Frieza does due to his good guy act. That explains why he's stronger. I think they probably have the exact same potential.1. You question why Goku would have to go SSJ against Frost who hasn't trained but was stronger in Base than Frieza who has trained. Yet you already acknowledged that Frost without training is vastly stronger than Frieza without training so you know they aren't the same.
I also fail to see what this counterargument does to contradict the two base theory. Yes, Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza who is stronger than Base Goku w/o godly ki. So what? Nothing surprising there.
Vegeta went SSJ in order to OHKO Frost, meaning that he had to since he wasn't using godly ki. If he could have done so in Base without godly ki, he would have. But he couldn't have. Therefore, Goku had to go SSJ as well.Piccolo better than Base Goku? Not once said ever at any point in either the manga or the anime. You are assuming something and presenting it as fact when if anything facts show the opposite is true.
It's not an assumption. Piccolo has always been stronger than Base Saiyans since fusing with Kami. That was a basic fact in DBZ. I see no reason why that would change without SSG power.
The plot doesn't call for it since they're not gods in the anime!3. Why so many God level characters in U6? Because the plot calls for it. It called for characters to be at a high enough level to challenge the protagonists.
I don't think anyone denies that Buu was hyped up like crazy. Anyone who reads shonen regularly knows hype when they see it.4. Majin Buu was never hyped up. That one is just a straight up lie. They removed him from the Tournament so that must mean he could have beat everyone! Two bases confirmed! No.
In the ep 50 preview, we see Goku using SSJ2 against Black.5. Goku went SSJ2 against Trunks because he'd powered up enough for Goku to have to...or he went SSJ2 just to match him as he said.
...SSJ3 Gotenks being weaker than Base Mirai Trunks is the weakest argument of them all by a giant mile.So yeah like I said none of the arguments that have been given are any good, in fact they're actually pretty bad.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan to knock Frost the fuck out. What exactly stopped him from accessing his super powerful Base form to knock Frost out? He didn't even need to power-up to take Ginyu out, so why would that be any different here? Beers asked Goku why didn't he used his full-power, making no mention of this mysterious Base form he has.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
But again that's nothing more than an assumption because you don't know how often Frieza fought. All his combat experience on Namek didn't help him on Earth. You don't know if Frost was just killing fodder like how Frieza killed the Saiyans. You don't know if them doing that makes them more powerful.I already mentioned just a day or two ago that Frost gets more combat experience than Frieza does due to his good guy act. That explains why he's stronger. I think they probably have the exact same potential.
So it doesn't explain why he's stronger. It wasn't even a thing in the manga.
It doesn't contradict the two base theory but we know that Frieza's race are mutants, we know they are born with unnaturally high levels of power without any effort, we know they vary so what is wrong with Frost's natural born power being superior to Frieza's potential power?
Yet you could just aswell say why didn't Vegeta just switch his God Ki on then?Vegeta went SSJ in order to OHKO Frost, meaning that he had to since he wasn't using godly ki. If he could have done so in Base without godly ki, he would have. But he couldn't have. Therefore, Goku had to go SSJ as well.
Sure enough you can say Frost is stronger than the Base Saiyans but we also know he's stronger than Piccolo so there's nothing to say that the Base Saiyans couldn't be stronger than Piccolo too.
Piccolo was stronger than the Base Saiyans but he wasn't in the RoF saga. He apparently wasn't when Goku was sick and said even he could probably beat him now. Could Piccolo beat SSJ3 Gotenks and fight with Beerus we don't know that but likely not
We know for a fact that since the end of the BoG arc Base Goku has been stronger than Piccolo. The opposite can not be said.
Again you don't know that because nothing suggests that Base Goku or Vegeta were suddenly drastically weaker than before the tournament.The plot doesn't call for it since they're not gods in the anime!
Being as though it was never said they lowered their power, suppressed themselves, switched God power off etc then again it has to be a fact that they would be fighting at the same level as they were against Frieza.
He wasn't hyped up. They were putting a team together, Goku already ruled out Gohan, Gotenks couldn't take part and Buu is one of the strongest in the universe so no of course they couldn't have gone without Buu.I don't think anyone denies that Buu was hyped up like crazy. Anyone who reads shonen regularly knows hype when they see it.
They were stating the obvious and somehow from that and because he didn't take part you're making this grand assumption that Toriyama wrote him out of competing because he would have beaten everybody.
What's wrong with that?In the ep 50 preview, we see Goku using SSJ2 against Black.
Why is it weak? Just because it'd mean that Trunks is stronger than he logically should be?...SSJ3 Gotenks being weaker than Base Mirai Trunks is the weakest argument of them all by a giant mile.
In the Piccolo Jr arc a badly damaged worn out Piccolo was still more than a match for Kami, Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi and Tien together. After the Tournament he spent 5 years training. Raditz showed up and was able to overwhelm Piccolo and Goku at the same time.
But then before you knew it Yamcha was stronger than Raditz.
So what's the difference? In a fictional series where power levels do not follow logic and characters become as strong as the plot requires then what is so complicated about Base Trunks maybe being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks?
Cabba is so what's he problem?
Additionally you haven't commented on the other thing. If the theory is true and the people making the show know about it then why on earth would they not ever mention it?
Why would Goku and Vegeta not have it switched on against Frost, Magetta and Cabba if they are having trouble? They have it switched on when they training for fights but then have it switched off for the actual fights?
In a series where enemies always grow stronger as the series progresses just as the heroes do (anyone who reads shonen would know that...) then why are they going backwards by having characters who are only as strong as those seen in the Cell arc?
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Ok I think I finally see what the problem is. It seems there is a portion of the fan base that still feel SSJ1 Goku is at SSG levels. Which is even stranger with the context of SSJ2 and SSJ3 and SSB not even considering the X KK X 10 factor. Most people who believe the two base theory have long abandoned the assumption that SSJ1 Goku was at SSG level and many feel it's been retconned. Am I correct in staying that those who dismiss the theory still subscribe to SSJ1 Goku= SSG while those who believe In the two base theory feel that's been retconned?Bullza wrote:That logically makes sense and could have been a fair point but we know that Super Saiyan (for Goku at least) is insignificantly weaker than Super Saiyan God. At that time he didn't have Godly Ki because he could be sensed but he still had the power.if we follow ad litteram "Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan + Godly ki", then "Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue − Godly ki". It means that if God ki is normally "on" for Goku, he'd have to consciously turn it "off" to become a regular Super Saiyan.
So the current Super Saiyan is far above the likes of the Super Saiyan prior. Unless there's also a two Super Saiyan theory and the Super Saiyan that fought Beerus is drastically more powerful than the Super Saiyan who fought Frost.
On top of that it's still not clear how Super Saiyan Blue works because there was all that stuff about them powering up their Ki without letting it leak out which seemed as though that had something to do with the form.
Realistically this
SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base
Is far more realistic than this
SSJB > SSJ > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
They just didn't want to use godly ki against any contestant unless they had to (Hit).Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan to knock Frost the fuck out. What exactly stopped him from accessing his super powerful Base form to knock Frost out? He didn't even need to power-up to take Ginyu out, so why would that be any different here? Beers asked Goku why didn't he used his full-power, making no mention of this mysterious Base form he has.
Unless you think Magetta is SSG level in the anime but not the manga, then Vegeta also struggled a lot against Magetta for the same reason. He didn't want to use godly ki against him.
Bolded part: he was just training with Whis so he was already powered up.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Ok, it is been a while since I have posted here. Furthermore there is more material and stuff to work around in that subject. First let's summarize what we know about Base goku and vegeta...
1) bog Base goku and vegeta were weaker then Final form Frieeza at 100% as stated by beerus. Keeping in mind that Base goku in battle with frieeza was 3 milion pl and frieeza's full power was 120 mln pl, then goku was just 2.5% of final form frieeza from namek
2) Beerus was slightly impressed by ss3 goku at least it was shown in the anime and he considered him finally worhty to show feel of god's destruction power
3) Enraged mutation vegeta(ss2 looking alike) was stated by Roshi to finally suprass goku, and beerus confirmed it by having more fun then in previous clash. Goku who has been watching this duel, never mentions vegeta suprassing vegetto, just only him as meassure stick. He got one shot by 10% beerus
4) Combined ki failed ritual goku was stated to have incredible power or the greatest power felt , which means this goku ~ buu arc ss vegetto. Beerus was looking with slight interest but expecting ssg he was disappointed still even vegeta was impressed which means this goku > enraged ss2 vegeta
5) After ssg burnt out goku was keeping up at same peace against beerus,however beerus explained that it is only due to crimson fire burning inside you still. So Ss goku with anger and being excited was close to ssg and about base it was only one occurence, possibly still affected from ss, but much better shown in the movie where goku retransform in ssg to push beerus's destructive power back
6) After six months of vegeta training under whis, Goku meet with him and explain that vegeta got stronger then him, but never specify if at all or just in current form(base)
7) While training under whis both vegeta and goku are improving vastly, however oracle fish mentions transformation which would make them much stronger.
Akira mentioned once about goku absorbing power of Saiyan god in himself, but never specify if that means god ki or even keeping such power in base. It can be easily interpretted as hint of ssb comming as it was only then when Kaiosama said he finally turned in god just by himself.
9) Whis told goku that only them together fighting against beerus would give them chance winning, and he meant ssb power including.
10) In ROF frieeza was impressed by goku's power stating he is even stronger then majin buu, while they were both around equal with frieeza slight adavantage.
At this point base goku > bog ss3 goku
11) Before universe 6 tournament goku called Majin buu crazy strong while enraged, which could reffer to possibly fat buu.
12) Picoolo and gohan have trained for 8 months and arguably gohan was retrained from scratch.
13) 3 years in Rosat training made both goku and vegeta a bit stronger, although they were supposed to be at the limit. at this point they are ~ SS2 gotenks at least
14) Against Botamo, goku excussed himself holding back with eating too much food, also botamo's special ability made it hard to see where he could be
15) Against Frost, it was only while clashing with Assault form Frost goku began to get heated up and warming up for fight, then he forced Frost to transform by transforming himself in ss. fresh Final Form Frost ~ ss3 gotenks let's say.
16) Goku stated that Picoolo has no chance against Frost, but can weaken him for vegeta. Still Picoolo has done pretty well against final form frost and we should remember frost was keeping his game of acting as good guy until this point, so hardly to meassure as Frost agreed to hold back stating he lacks power to finish Picoolo(which could be just good game acting)
17) SS Vegeta one shoot tired frost who want to go all out against him.
18) Vegeta vs Maggenta shows that full power Magenta could be above buuhan, base vegetto
19) Vegeta vs Cabba, Vegeta played with him a bit to push him further then trained him to reach ssj by pretending to be evil. Still SS Vegeta easily tanks SS cabba, so SS Cabba would be around Magenta level at full power. Buutenks most likely
20) About Fight against Hit, I prefer to go by manga version, as Kaioken was stupid idea.
Worth to note: Neither goku or vegeta were used god ki fully until transforming into ssb. To sum it up I have base goku and vegeta between buu arc ultimate gohan level and enraged ssj2 vegeta mutation(Yes, I have him below ss vegetto, probably buuhan too).
In Current arc it would be:
Full power base goku - 100% ~ ultimate gohan level(10x ss3(400))
ss3 goku - 10%
ss2 goku - 2.5%
ss2 trunks - 2%
Holding back base goku - 0,025%
The reason for goku to transform was just show off and to show him that he can transform too. Possibly precents would be higher if let's say ss2 trunks was stated to be above majin buu, but we don't know sadly. Still I don't see ss3 goku being more then 20% of full power base goku. Also they can be still felt until they use ssb, so I am not convinced with two base theory. About filler battle of vegeta and ss3 gotenks... I just skip it/omit it unless manga bring it up too.
Base on these points I made and brought up, here it is how I see it:
u6 ssb goku
rof ssb goku
ssg goku
ssj goku with ssg crimson fire burning - TEMPORARY FORM
base goku with ssg crimson fire burning - TEMPORARY FORM
ss goku/vegeta - 100%(never used unless in manga) ~ bog arc ss vegetto
base goku against beerus in monaca costume/base vegeta - 100%
current arc ss3 goku ~ ultimate gohan level
ss3 gotenks
current arc ss2 goku/trunks - majin buu/good buu
base goku supressed/base trunks supressed
Basically I assume bog versions of base and ss were just temporrary due to beerus noting crimson fire burning inside them. Also there is no two base form theory, but rather mutliple depending how suppressed character is... You think, that sound stupid ?
Well Goku turning ss2 and ss3 is just fan serivce and for sake of old time goku wanted to show he can do it too. The mere fact neither goku or vegeta power up in base proves that they are heaily supressed in base ?, Well, but wasn't it known for years that they can do it ? Sure, but people find it too easy way. In other way base goku only supressed himself to be just stronger then base trunks and then having same transformation lead to goku being supperior simply as that.
1) bog Base goku and vegeta were weaker then Final form Frieeza at 100% as stated by beerus. Keeping in mind that Base goku in battle with frieeza was 3 milion pl and frieeza's full power was 120 mln pl, then goku was just 2.5% of final form frieeza from namek
2) Beerus was slightly impressed by ss3 goku at least it was shown in the anime and he considered him finally worhty to show feel of god's destruction power
3) Enraged mutation vegeta(ss2 looking alike) was stated by Roshi to finally suprass goku, and beerus confirmed it by having more fun then in previous clash. Goku who has been watching this duel, never mentions vegeta suprassing vegetto, just only him as meassure stick. He got one shot by 10% beerus
4) Combined ki failed ritual goku was stated to have incredible power or the greatest power felt , which means this goku ~ buu arc ss vegetto. Beerus was looking with slight interest but expecting ssg he was disappointed still even vegeta was impressed which means this goku > enraged ss2 vegeta
5) After ssg burnt out goku was keeping up at same peace against beerus,however beerus explained that it is only due to crimson fire burning inside you still. So Ss goku with anger and being excited was close to ssg and about base it was only one occurence, possibly still affected from ss, but much better shown in the movie where goku retransform in ssg to push beerus's destructive power back
6) After six months of vegeta training under whis, Goku meet with him and explain that vegeta got stronger then him, but never specify if at all or just in current form(base)
7) While training under whis both vegeta and goku are improving vastly, however oracle fish mentions transformation which would make them much stronger.
9) Whis told goku that only them together fighting against beerus would give them chance winning, and he meant ssb power including.
10) In ROF frieeza was impressed by goku's power stating he is even stronger then majin buu, while they were both around equal with frieeza slight adavantage.
At this point base goku > bog ss3 goku
11) Before universe 6 tournament goku called Majin buu crazy strong while enraged, which could reffer to possibly fat buu.
12) Picoolo and gohan have trained for 8 months and arguably gohan was retrained from scratch.
13) 3 years in Rosat training made both goku and vegeta a bit stronger, although they were supposed to be at the limit. at this point they are ~ SS2 gotenks at least
14) Against Botamo, goku excussed himself holding back with eating too much food, also botamo's special ability made it hard to see where he could be
15) Against Frost, it was only while clashing with Assault form Frost goku began to get heated up and warming up for fight, then he forced Frost to transform by transforming himself in ss. fresh Final Form Frost ~ ss3 gotenks let's say.
16) Goku stated that Picoolo has no chance against Frost, but can weaken him for vegeta. Still Picoolo has done pretty well against final form frost and we should remember frost was keeping his game of acting as good guy until this point, so hardly to meassure as Frost agreed to hold back stating he lacks power to finish Picoolo(which could be just good game acting)
17) SS Vegeta one shoot tired frost who want to go all out against him.
18) Vegeta vs Maggenta shows that full power Magenta could be above buuhan, base vegetto
19) Vegeta vs Cabba, Vegeta played with him a bit to push him further then trained him to reach ssj by pretending to be evil. Still SS Vegeta easily tanks SS cabba, so SS Cabba would be around Magenta level at full power. Buutenks most likely
20) About Fight against Hit, I prefer to go by manga version, as Kaioken was stupid idea.
Worth to note: Neither goku or vegeta were used god ki fully until transforming into ssb. To sum it up I have base goku and vegeta between buu arc ultimate gohan level and enraged ssj2 vegeta mutation(Yes, I have him below ss vegetto, probably buuhan too).
In Current arc it would be:
Full power base goku - 100% ~ ultimate gohan level(10x ss3(400))
ss3 goku - 10%
ss2 goku - 2.5%
ss2 trunks - 2%
Holding back base goku - 0,025%
The reason for goku to transform was just show off and to show him that he can transform too. Possibly precents would be higher if let's say ss2 trunks was stated to be above majin buu, but we don't know sadly. Still I don't see ss3 goku being more then 20% of full power base goku. Also they can be still felt until they use ssb, so I am not convinced with two base theory. About filler battle of vegeta and ss3 gotenks... I just skip it/omit it unless manga bring it up too.
Base on these points I made and brought up, here it is how I see it:
u6 ssb goku
rof ssb goku
ssg goku
ssj goku with ssg crimson fire burning - TEMPORARY FORM
base goku with ssg crimson fire burning - TEMPORARY FORM
ss goku/vegeta - 100%(never used unless in manga) ~ bog arc ss vegetto
base goku against beerus in monaca costume/base vegeta - 100%
current arc ss3 goku ~ ultimate gohan level
ss3 gotenks
current arc ss2 goku/trunks - majin buu/good buu
base goku supressed/base trunks supressed
Basically I assume bog versions of base and ss were just temporrary due to beerus noting crimson fire burning inside them. Also there is no two base form theory, but rather mutliple depending how suppressed character is... You think, that sound stupid ?
Well Goku turning ss2 and ss3 is just fan serivce and for sake of old time goku wanted to show he can do it too. The mere fact neither goku or vegeta power up in base proves that they are heaily supressed in base ?, Well, but wasn't it known for years that they can do it ? Sure, but people find it too easy way. In other way base goku only supressed himself to be just stronger then base trunks and then having same transformation lead to goku being supperior simply as that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
Vegeta used Super Saiyan Blue to show Cabba the form. He didn't have to there, so why avoid it in a fight you could potentially lose?Chiki wrote:They just didn't want to use godly ki against any contestant unless they had to (Hit).
If Magetta didn't have that stupid weakness, he could've actually won. All we're shown by this point is that they're holding-back Super Saiyan Blue. A super powerful Base form being a trick up their sleeve is implied nowhere.Unless you think Magetta is SSG level in the anime but not the manga, then Vegeta also struggled a lot against Magetta for the same reason. He didn't want to use godly ki against him.
Base Goku powered-up before fighting Freeza, so not really.Bolded part: he was just training with Whis so he was already powered up.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread
I think this alone would answer a lot of the questions people have.Basically I assume bog versions of base and ss were just temporrary due to beerus noting crimson fire burning inside them.
1) Do you believe BOG power levels are still accurate
2) Do you believe they have since be retconned
If you answer no to the first then you have to accept drastically fluctuations power levels.
If you answer yes then you believe everyone is now God tier. It's pretty much that simple.
The problem is that Super is so inconsistent that anyone could find enough evidence for either scenario.


