Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

Ok I think I finally see what the problem is. It seems there is a portion of the fan base that still feel SSJ1 Goku is at SSG levels. Which is even stranger with the context of SSJ2 and SSJ3 and SSB not even considering the X KK X 10 factor. Most people who believe the two base theory have long abandoned the assumption that SSJ1 Goku was at SSG level and many feel it's been retconned. Am I correct in staying that those who dismiss the theory still subscribe to SSJ1 Goku= SSG while those who believe In the two base theory feel that's been retconned?

I believe in the Two-Base Theory but don't believe it was retconned.
So this is pretty much what happened:

Before SSG ritual Goku had Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3.
After the SSG ritual Goku was a SSG.
Once time ran out he turned back into a SS, which still was at the same level as a Super Saiyan God.

Goku absorbed the God Ki so he has: Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < Saiyan beyond God < Super Saiyan beyond God
The "beyond God" suffix is when he puts the God Ki into that form. Super Saiyan beyond God (with God Ki in his Super Saiyan form) explains how he was able to keep up with Beerus at the end of the BoG saga.

Now, SSbG (Super Saiyan beyond God) IS a Super Saiyan with God Ki infused in it. While Goku and Vegeta train with Whis in DBSuper they punch fists and the Blue Ki is emitted for a bit. Then they go into the Dimension in Whis' Staff. They finally take Whis' advice and keep their Ki inside themselves so it doesn't leak out and it makes them stronger. Goku uses this on the SSbG form -- the Super Saiyan form with God Ki in it that he fought Beerus with. Keeping the Ki inside themselves makes the form stronger and coincidentally makes their hair blue like the Blue Ki. This becomes their SSGSS forms that they fight Golden Frieza in.

Essentially, Goku **UPGRADED** his Super Saiyan form he fought Beerus in at the end of the BoG saga into SSGSS -- this upgrade moved the power from equal to SSG to greater than SSG. It explains how SSGSS > SSG. Trust me, I've thought about DBSuper A LOT and this issue A LOT. This seems to be what happened so that it is consistent with the story presented.

[TheMikado]

^ so where do you fit SSJ2 and SSJ3 into that mix?

[Chiki]

Also there is no two base form theory, but rather mutliple depending how suppressed character is... You think, that sound stupid ?

Sounds like the two base theory.

Vegeta used Super Saiyan Blue to show Cabba the form. He didn't have to there, so why avoid it in a fight you could potentially lose?

Unless they had to, or to show it off.

If Magetta didn't have that stupid weakness, he could've actually won. All we're shown by this point is that they're holding-back Super Saiyan Blue. A super powerful Base form being a trick up their sleeve is implied nowhere.

So Magetta is a god in the anime but SSJ level in the manga? Ok then.

Base Goku powered-up before fighting Freeza, so not really.

Not surprising that they would power down a bit due to not fighting anything.

I believe in the Two-Base Theory but don't believe it was retconned.
So this is pretty much what happened:

I agree with everything here.

[Bullza]

1) Do you believe BOG power levels are still accurate
2) Do you believe they have since be retconned

I'd say Yes and No. There's nothing solid that points to them being different. It requires some mix and matching but Base Goku's power in the BoG movie does not appear to be retconned in Super and that's why Goku could fight Beerus and why he's stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

If Goku's Base strenght didn't change then the Super Saiyan strenght shouldn't have changed either.

I think one of the problems at the moment is people are still putting Super Saiyan Gods power on a pedestal.

The legendary Super Saiyan that beat Frieza the strongest in the Universe was leagues upon leagues ahead of all the others at the time. Within two volumes that level was nothing special anymore because you had Trunks, Vegeta, Android 17, 18, 19, Dr Gero and Piccolo all on that level.

The same thing has happened again, Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God makes all but two characters look like chumps but more characters have been introduced on a similiar level and SSJG just isn't anything special anymore.

It's how the series is and has always been.

[ChiefWamsutta]

@TheMikado

In terms of Power:
Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Saiyan beyond God < Super Saiyan beyond God < Super Saiyan Blue

*Super Saiyan beyond God = Super Saiyan God


In terms of Visual Direction of Forms:
(Super Saiyan Blue) Super Saiyan beyond God <----- Saiyan beyond God <----- Base -----> Super Saiyan 1 -----> Super Saiyan 2 -----> Super Saiyan 3

I put SSB in parentheses because all you're really doing is keeping your Ki inside you. Goku 'begins' for lack of a better word, at Base and then can move to different forms.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Unless they had to, or to show it off.

But they'd hide this level of power for absolutely no reason? Makes sense. What Goku fought Freeza, Frost, Hit, and Monaka Beers with was his Base power. There's no special God Chi hidden somewhere.

So Magetta is a god in the anime but SSJ level in the manga? Ok then.

Magetta was in Super Saiyan Vegeta's league like we're shown. His only chance at beating him without insults was Super Saiyan Blue.

Not surprising that they would power down a bit due to not fighting anything.

This just means Vegeta wasn't powered-up like I originally said...

[Chiki]

But they'd hide this level of power for absolutely no reason? Makes sense.

It's not for "absolutely no reason." They wanted the tournament to be a challenge, so they hid it. This is one of the basics of the two base theory, that they want to have fun in the tournament so they won't go all out. It's simple.

Vegeta wanted to crush Frost, but he didn't need to use SSG power, so he just went SSJ to OHKO him. Vegeta wanted to show off SSB, his strongest form to Cabba, so he used it. And Hit was a god level fighter anyway, so he had to use godly ki there.

Magetta was in Super Saiyan Vegeta's league like we're shown. His only chance at beating him without insults was Super Saiyan Blue.

In the manga, Super Saiyan Vegeta is much closer to the FPSSJ levels in the Cell arc. This is just a basic fact in the manga since they can turn into SSG, no one can rationally deny it. In the anime, though, it's not as clear, and you seem to think that SS Vegeta has SSG power.. so Magetta, according to you, is a god in the anime but not in the manga.

This just means Vegeta wasn't powered-up like I originally said...

Read more carefully. Powered down A BIT, still with godly ki. Not powered down to BoG base levels.

[HeroR]

1) Do you believe BOG power levels are still accurate
2) Do you believe they have since be retconned

I'd say Yes and No. There's nothing solid that points to them being different. It requires some mix and matching but Base Goku's power in the BoG movie does not appear to be retconned in Super and that's why Goku could fight Beerus and why he's stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

If Goku's Base strenght didn't change then the Super Saiyan strenght shouldn't have changed either.

I think one of the problems at the moment is people are still putting Super Saiyan Gods power on a pedestal.

The legendary Super Saiyan that beat Frieza the strongest in the Universe was leagues upon leagues ahead of all the others at the time. Within two volumes that level was nothing special anymore because you had Trunks, Vegeta, Android 17, 18, 19, Dr Gero and Piccolo all on that level.

The same thing has happened again, Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God makes all but two characters look like chumps but more characters have been introduced on a similiar level and SSJG just isn't anything special anymore.

It's how the series is and has always been.

Have to agree. Look at all the posts trying to make the U6 fighters only around Perfect Cell to Fat Buu. The very idea that Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is treated as unbelievable or that Frost is stronger than Freeza outside of his golden form, where meeting people who made the previous arc power-ups look like nothing is par the course.

And, I think some hate that Goku and Vegeta are really are overpowered physical gods.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The best part about the Two-Base Theory (where Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << SbG < SSbG < SSGSS) is that it is 100% modifiable.

If in DBSuper we get introduced to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2, the theory can be: Well, Goku can also infuse God Ki into his SS2 form and is holding his God Ki inside himself.

If in DBSuper we never see any other Blue-haired forms, the theory can be: Well, Goku only can infuse God Ki into his SS1 form because he was using that form during the SSG ritual.



EDIT: I think it makes no sense to argue WHY a character does something. Vegeta can choose to go from SS1 to SSB because he chooses to. Discussing WHAT the character is doing will get us somewhere.

[HeroR]

@TheMikado

In terms of Power:
Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Saiyan beyond God < Super Saiyan beyond God < Super Saiyan Blue

*Super Saiyan beyond God = Super Saiyan God


In terms of Visual Direction of Forms:
(Super Saiyan Blue) Super Saiyan beyond God <----- Saiyan beyond God <----- Base -----> Super Saiyan 1 -----> Super Saiyan 2 -----> Super Saiyan 3

I put SSB in parentheses because all you're really doing is keeping your Ki inside you. Goku 'begins' for lack of a better word, at Base and then can move to different forms.

So how are we supposed to know when they're using their suppose 'Saiyan Beyond God' mode? When we want to underplay the person they're fighting?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, haha, that's where Toei fucks us hard. The only clue I can see is the white aura they use for Saiyan beyond God. Super Saiyan beyond God hasn't been used again since the Outer Space Fight vs. Beerus, so any yellow-haired form should be their DBZ-power-level counterpart from hereonout.

[HeroR]

Yeah, haha, that's where Toei fucks us hard. The only clue I can see is the white aura they use for Saiyan beyond God. Super Saiyan beyond God hasn't been used again since the Outer Space Fight vs. Beerus, so any yellow-haired form should be their DBZ power level counterpart from hereonout.

Or maybe there is no two base theory, so no visual cue is needed. And Copy-Vegeta had no white aura fighting Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. So you're saying their Saiyan Beyond Base is even stronger than that?

Oh, that was also no aura around Goku when he fought Hit in his base form. You know, the same who too down Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta in a few hits. Guess Goku didn't feel like turning it on.

[Bullza]

Have to agree. Look at all the posts trying to make the U6 fighters only around Perfect Cell to Fat Buu. The very idea that Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is treated as unbelievable or that Frost is stronger than Freeza outside of his golden form

Exactly and all this theory comes down to is

"Piccolo and Trunks are too strong, it doesn't make sense! There must be two bases!"

That's it. There's a two base theory because Piccolo and now Trunks appear to be stronger than they logically should be, that's it.

where meeting people who made the previous arc power-ups look like nothing is par the course.

That exact thing only just happened again when Zeno showed up. Now Beerus is nothing special because there's also Champa and Vados and likely Zeno's bodyguards too.

It's always been like that but apparently now it's a problem. This is the same series that not long ago had Tagoma go from being as strong as Zarbon to Perfect Cell level in just four months from being beaten about and that's ok...

...But Trunks arguably gets to God level in about 10 years and that's an issue

[Chiki]

Or maybe there is no two base theory, so no visual cue is needed.

Basic circular argument. You can't disprove the two base theory by saying there is no two base theory. Also saying there is no two base theory is trivially false since the theory obviously exists.

The very idea that Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is treated as unbelievable or that Frost is stronger than Freeza outside of his golden form, where meeting people who made the previous arc power-ups look like nothing is par the course.

Um.. no. The manga already confirmed that Frost is way weaker than Frieza (it was outright stated that Frost didn't undergo the training that Frieza did in RoF). And it also confirmed that Goku can go SSG at will, meaning he doesn't have godly ki in Base or Super Saiyan (since that would be completely impossible if he transforms into SSG to access SSG power). Meaning that his Base and SS forms are Cell arc-Buu arc level.

These things have already been confirmed in the manga, with literal statements, and no one denies them. You just have to show us that they're different in the anime; i.e. they're gods in the anime but not in the manga.

And, I think some hate that Goku and Vegeta are really are overpowered physical gods.

The two base theory says they're physical gods..

Also, it's that I hate the ridiculous idea of Piccolo and Trunks being able to finger flick SSJ3 Gotenks like they're nothing. Also the idea of Frost and Cabba and Magetta being god level. Makes no sense.

But Trunks arguably gets to God level in about 10 years and that's an issue

Vegeta didn't reach anywhere near god level between the Cell games and the Buu arc. That was 7 years. Wrong.

[ChiefWamsutta]

@HeroR
No, I think Copy-Vegeta was a Saiyan beyond God when he fought SS3 Gotenks.


Look, the inconsistencies and shitty writing from Toei essentially boil down to "No Two-Base Theory" or "Yes Two-Base Theory." We are never going to get a clear-cut answer from them as to what is going on in this show.

You can subscribe to either one or the other. The "Yes Two-Base Theory" camp keeps power levels somewhat consistent and close-to-accurate. The "No Two-Base Theory" camp makes the show much, much trickier to understand, but grasping one base is easier.

I'm not ever going to try to convince someone to believe in one camp or the other. Whatever way you want to interpret the show is your choice.

[HeroR]

No, I think Copy-Vegeta was a Saiyan beyond God when he fought SS3 Gotenks.


Look, the inconsistencies and shitty writing from Toei essentially boil down to "No Two-Base Theory" or "Yes Two-Base Theory." We are never going to get a clear-cut answer from them as to what is going on in this show.

You can subscribe to either one or the other. The "Yes Two-Base Theory" camp keeps power levels somewhat consistent and close-to-accurate. The "No Two-Base Theory" camp makes the show much, much trickier to understand, but grasping one base is easier.

I'm not ever going to try to convince someone to believe in one camp or the other. Whatever way you want to interpret the show is your choice.

No visual cue shows Copy-Vegeta wasn't power up and it was the same with Goku and Hit. The two base theory boils down to, I don't think this person is that powerful, therefor Goku and Vegeta are using their former base. It isn't poor writing on Toei, it's fans being in denial that Goku and Vegeta are super powerful in their base forms and anyone who can challenge them make the levels in the Buu Saga look laughable.

Also, l love you use the phase 'close-to-accurate'. Did you get a hold of Toriyama's script and know exactly how strong everyone is supposed to be? Or, is this a question of how powerful you think or feel a character should be?

Even a theory need facts to back it up. Saying Goku and Vegeta have two base powers yet no visual cues or signs to tell us when they're using them at any giving time other than trying to overplay or downplay another character is a theory that is not well thought out.

[HeroR]

Have to agree. Look at all the posts trying to make the U6 fighters only around Perfect Cell to Fat Buu. The very idea that Cabba is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is treated as unbelievable or that Frost is stronger than Freeza outside of his golden form

Exactly and all this theory comes down to is

"Piccolo and Trunks are too strong, it doesn't make sense! There must be two bases!"

That's it. There's a two base theory because Piccolo and now Trunks appear to be stronger than they logically should be, that's it.

where meeting people who made the previous arc power-ups look like nothing is par the course.

That exact thing only just happened again when Zeno showed up. Now Beerus is nothing special because there's also Champa and Vados and likely Zeno's bodyguards too.

It's always been like that but apparently now it's a problem. This is the same series that not long ago had Tagoma go from being as strong as Zarbon to Perfect Cell level in just four months from being beaten about and that's ok...

...But Trunks arguably gets to God level in about 10 years and that's an issue

I don't feel Trunks is that strong for reasons I named before. I see Trunks as strong or stronger that Super Saiyan 2 Goku in the Buu Saga.

[ChiefWamsutta]

@HeroR

Haha, I get what you're saying. For the past year and a half, I had subscribed to the fact that Goku and Vegeta WERE just that strong.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's not for "absolutely no reason." They wanted the tournament to be a challenge, so they hid it. This is one of the basics of the two base theory, that they want to have fun in the tournament so they won't go all out. It's simple.

Uh, that is the exact opposite of a challenge. Vegeta specifically says he was happy that he was improving in the rosat because he wanted to test it against the warriors of U6. Goku also calls them all incredibly strong fighters, which goes against pretty much everything you're saying. Saiyans want to fight strong opponents, not pretend to fight strong opponents. Why do you think Vegeta said Semi-Cell was boring and not worth finishing off? Now Saiyans like to fight weak opponents? The amount of explanations that need to be made for this theory shows exactly why it isn't a very strong one.

Vegeta wanted to crush Frost, but he didn't need to use SSG power, so he just went SSJ to OHKO him. Vegeta wanted to show off SSB, his strongest form to Cabba, so he used it. And Hit was a god level fighter anyway, so he had to use godly ki there.

Yet Magetta was giving a difficult fight and was able to take Vegeta's most powerful attacks. He had to transform to fight him even though he had a more powerful Base that didn't require a transformation at all. It's a convoluted explanation at best.

In the manga, Super Saiyan Vegeta is much closer to the FPSSJ levels in the Cell arc. This is just a basic fact in the manga since they can turn into SSG, no one can rationally deny it. In the anime, though, it's not as clear, and you seem to think that SS Vegeta has SSG power.. so Magetta, according to you, is a god in the anime but not in the manga.

I think Super Saiyan Vegeta is way beyond Super Saiyan 3 level. That isn't the equivalent of saying he has God power. All we know is Base Vegeta became dramatically stronger after training with Whis and even stronger after training with Goku in the rosat.

Read more carefully. Powered down A BIT, still with godly ki. Not powered down to BoG base levels.

The point is a visible power-up isn't required for them use all of their power in Base. They weren't even doing anything before they were called to Earth, so there's no powered-down a bit. They're either powered-up to fight or they're not. Vegeta wasn't, but still had enough power to easily decimate Ginyu. Meaning, there's no visual difference between Base Goku and Base Goku using some special God Power. The series never mentioned it anywhere at all.

[Bullza]

Vegeta didn't reach anywhere near god level between the Cell games and the Buu arc. That was 7 years. Wrong.

But that's following logic, the series does not work like that. As Tagoma proved.

In the Namek saga it was all about the Zenkai boost. Vegeta was beaten and knocked out cold and almost drowned against Zarbon. His power went up 25%.

Goku was beaten by Vegeta but he was still conscious yet his power increased 33 fold. Vegeta had a hole blasted through him and was seconds from death and his boost was nothing like that.

It happened that way though because the plot called for Goku to be stronger than the others after healing.

Vegeta didn't get to God level between the Cell and Buu arcs because that level didn't exist within the plot back then. It does exist now though and so characters are of that level now.

You don't have to like it. I don't like Yamcha being stronger than Raditz, I don't like Krillin being able to kill 5 Raditz with one move, I don't like Guru putting his hand on Krillin's head and now he's stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta, I don't like how Dr Gero tampered with a teenage girl and made her vastly more powerful than the known strongest beings in the universe, I don't like Frieza doing a few months of training and him surpassing Super Vegito etc

But that's how this series works.