Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

The series also never mentioned Piccolo and Trunks's power ups. You can try to say it's bad writing but if you don't accept the two base theory, that's even WORSE writing.

Yes it did.

Goku - "It is Unbelievable that you reached such a level of power on your own. I'm surprised." in 13 years despite himself reaching nearly kid buu level in 7 years on his own.

Beerus - "This boy is also quite impressive"despite calling EVERYTHING below SS3 goku BoG trash. He also called BoG SS3 goku & Rageta impressive.

Trunks - "They are amazing!! What? Goku is being pushed back? Unbelievable" despite being unable to push BASE vegeta back as gotenks.

It talked about him reaching SSJ2 level, not Super Saiyan God level in Base.

[apex_pretador]

The series also never mentioned Piccolo and Trunks's power ups. You can try to say it's bad writing but if you don't accept the two base theory, that's even WORSE writing.

Yes it did.

Goku - "It is Unbelievable that you reached such a level of power on your own. I'm surprised." in 13 years despite himself reaching nearly kid buu level in 7 years on his own.

Beerus - "This boy is also quite impressive"despite calling EVERYTHING below SS3 goku BoG trash. He also called BoG SS3 goku & Rageta impressive.

Trunks - "They are amazing!! What? Goku is being pushed back? Unbelievable" despite being unable to push BASE vegeta back as gotenks.

It talked about him reaching SSJ2 level, not Super Saiyan God level in Base.

It looks more like :
SS2 trunks >= SS3 BoG goku > SS3 gotenks > SS3 buu arc goku

And no, they (go-geta) are NOT as strong as SSG in base. They don't need to be, they only need to be as strong as initial beerus.

[Chiki]

It looks more like :
SS2 trunks >= SS3 BoG goku > SS3 gotenks > SS3 buu arc goku

And no, they (go-geta) are NOT as strong as SSG in base. They don't need to be, they only need to be as strong as initial beerus.

Yes they are as strong as SSG in base. Toriyama said they absorbed the power, and it explains how they beat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. There is no middle ground.

[Saturnine]

There would be no two-base hypothesis if Toei just stuck to the clean, simple system that Toriyama devised, where your base power is that of a SSjG and your only form beyond is SSjB. But they just had to bring the old forms back in for fanservice, and if I were in their shoes, two bases would probably be the solution closest to elegant in my head.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Which is pretty much why I said:

Look, the inconsistencies and shitty writing from Toei essentially boil down to "No Two-Base Theory" or "Yes Two-Base Theory." We are never going to get a clear-cut answer from them as to what is going on in this show.

You can subscribe to either one or the other. The "Yes Two-Base Theory" camp keeps power levels somewhat consistent and close-to-accurate. The "No Two-Base Theory" camp makes the show much, much trickier to understand, but grasping one base is easier.

I'm not ever going to try to convince someone to believe in one camp or the other. Whatever way you want to interpret the show is your choice.

I may have been slightly careless with my choice of diction, but the main point says the same.

[buutenks]

I think both sides have good arguments that make sense. No statements were made about characters progressing so much on the 2 base theory side, and the 2 base theory was never stated inuniverse, nor were we even shown that base goku or vegeta, getting their ass kicked and then they power up while in base and boom they r on a completely different level.

I think the most obvious choice is that, toei doesnt really care, and just makes those fights cos it looks cool.

[Chiki]

It's possible we might hear something next ep. Goku goes SSJ2 against Black after all. We'll see.

[namekiansaiyan]

There would be no two-base hypothesis if Toei just stuck to the clean, simple system that Toriyama devised, where your base power is that of a SSjG and your only form beyond is SSjB. But they just had to bring the old forms back in for fanservice, and if I were in their shoes, two bases would probably be the solution closest to elegant in my head.

Toriyama put the other super saiyan forms back in.

[Bullza]

Yes they are as strong as SSG in base. Toriyama said they absorbed the power, and it explains how they beat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. There is no middle ground.

Well they never specifically said that he was as strong as SSJG in Base.

[Chiki]

Yes they are as strong as SSG in base. Toriyama said they absorbed the power, and it explains how they beat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. There is no middle ground.

Well they never specifically said that he was as strong as SSJG in Base.

Yes it was. Toriyama said they absorbed SSG power and Beerus pointed out that Goku's power barely dropped after losing SSG. Just use some very basic reasoning to conclude that Goku is SSG level. This is completely undeniable and there's nothing to debate about.

[Bullza]

Beerus said that he'd absorbed the power and so his power had barely dropped but he was Super Saiyan at the time. Toriyama just said he'd made the power his own.

They've never specifically said that Goku in his Base form is exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God.

And the movie, manga and even the Dragon Ball Heroes game have all shown Super Saiyan God to be a bit more powerful.

[ChronoTwigger]

Ok.
Let's return to the VERY BASIC of Dragon Ball.
Power=ki.
Not strenght.
The more KI you own the more "blasts" you can shoot.
Think of an RPG: you have your strenght stat for attack, life point (stamina) and power (ki=mana).
By training (levelling up) you can increase your basic strenght stat.
So a level 1 Goku can deal 100 point of damage with a punch, a level 100 Goku can deal 10.000 damages with a punch - power is not involved at all.

The changing forms are a way to spend KI to add further speed and strenght to your body. Sometime you need to spend also stamina.
It's a buff. Like "ATT+" spells of DragonQuest.

So far.
SuperSayan 1/2/3 are different level of a buff that increase your speed/strenght (+1?). Spend your KI each turn to keep it up and get the bonus.

SuperSayanGod is a different buff (a different "spell").
It work as, when you access it (learn and set the skill - mastering the skill), it grant you a permanent basic bonus (+1) while activating it spending KI grant you more (+5?).

SuperSayanBlue is a third buff.
It's a buff that require for you to reach a given level, spend KI and also STAMINA (HP) in percentage each turn. It's a powerfull "all in" buff.

If you mind this system, everything's fine. If you don't want to spend stamina, adhere to SSJ. In the meanwhile, increase your basic strenght...
Characters evolve and increase their stats form episodes to episodes, so Buu comparison have no sense. It was a "LVL30" adventure. Now whe are in LVL50 adventure.

[Hugo Boss]

When it comes to power levels in Toei productions, I just judge them on a case-by-case basis.
Expecting it to be consistent with each other is asking a bit too much for me, mainly due to all the writers working on the scenario for each given episode and what not, whereas the original manga only had one writer, so keeping things consistent was easier.
Also video-game logic, for my money with Toei's stuff, it always seems like it's written with video-game logic.

Certainly stuff like Piccolo's fight with Frost seems more fitting with video-game logic than "normal" logic, ie. imagine Piccolo has 3 out 3 health bars, whereas Frost has 6 out of 10 health bars, due to getting weakened after fighting Goku. Piccolo needs to dodge Frost as he can't afford to get hit as much as Frost. By normal logic Piccolo should have gotten utterly owned.

I think that's precisely the reason behind the fights being handled the way they are now, powerlevels are so subjective.. The video game logic seems to fit very well in this mess.

I don't know if you are disagreeing or just corroborating my point. Okay, the story's demands is what suggested those hybrids have higher potentials when needed. Goten and Trunks are even more special cases because they didn't have a tail, thus allowing them to develop more quickly. The rest you see, when they stop training Goku and Vegeta surpass them, but they could easily catch up if they put their mind into it.

I'm disagreeing, the whole hybrid theory is not referenced anymore. It was a plot element for making Gohan the hero. Tails disappearance could be just plot, the decided to omit them and forget about it
If you read all of the post you quoted then you will see the two main takeaways
1. A Saiyan/hybrid is only as strong as what is demanded of him and the strength of their foes
2. In the same frame of time both pure saiyans and hybrids grow/develop at an exponential rate depending other demands as explained on said post

The confusion comes from different timelines (mostly pre z) where the enemies were weak and the demands low, during Z goku grew at the same exponential speed as gohan because there were greater demands at the time. Goten and Trunks were born in a timeline with with stronger foes and greater demands and hence they had greater powers than anyone else at their age. You have the same Hybrid (Trunks and Future trunks) with different power levels as a kid, why? Greater foes/demand and plot

I do believe the hybrids have potential for achieving the powers Goku and Vegeta have with proper training but to say or imply they will grow at a faster rate is just unsubstantiated unless the plot demands for one of them to edge the other

Basically, you expanded on my point. I don't think we are disagreeing entirely. By the way, I don't understand why you separated points 1 and 2, they practically describe the same fact.

For what's being debated, the story showed half-blooded Saiyans gained power much faster than pure-blooded ones. The characters couldn't conceive Super Saiyans brats, giving how difficult it was to achieve the transformation, unless there was a prodigious thing happening there. I believe the Daizenshuu books had a word on it, citing tailless Saiyans as having super potential, no?

Also, there is no denying that the plot doesn't require Gohan, Kid Trunks or Goten to be strong anymore, so that must fill your (first or second?) point, because Goku and Vegeta are the top dogs now. But for the sake of narrative, the story gave us a proper explanation to why it was conceivable for Gohan with zero amount of training to be stronger than Goku when Raditz attacked for example.

In another case, I need Future Trunks to be very strong in order to feel that Black is a fearsome foe. Otherwise, the new villain would look like a pushover to me. The reasons behind Trunks being so strong are completely subjective of my part, but I hope I have clarified them. To be honest, I'm still under the impression that multiple writers are likely to mess up this stuff, and we are trying to make sense of it as usual.

[TheMikado]

Just realized that in the manga Beerus was impressed by both Goku's SSJ form and even his SSJ3 form. With that context in mind of what he thought of mortals Beerus would be pretty impressed with young Trunks at SSJ2 level as that would make him the 4th strongest being in the universe. Behind Goku, Vegeta, and Buu. Basically manga power levels make sense and anime don't...

[ssbgoku]

Basically I assume bog versions of base and ss were just temporrary due to beerus noting crimson fire burning inside them.

I think this alone would answer a lot of the questions people have.

1) Do you believe BOG power levels are still accurate
2) Do you believe they have since be retconned

If you answer no to the first then you have to accept drastically fluctuations power levels.
If you answer yes then you believe everyone is now God tier. It's pretty much that simple.

The problem is that Super is so inconsistent that anyone could find enough evidence for either scenario.

1) Nope, besides ssg and ssb who is only one which suprass it's.
2) Yes and no, depending how you look at it as vague statements are often interpreted in more then one way, so based on some point of plot and by portrayal of characters in it we can go by one of them while change it in near future.

[Bullza]

From the scanlations I can see Beerus doesn't really make a comment on Super Saiyan Goku's power other than he can see why he beat Frieza. When he turned Super Saiyan 3, Beerus says "Not bad...I'm almost impressed".

I'd say Trunks being pretty good and Goku being almost impressive would make it sound as though Trunks were better.

[HeroR]

There would be no two-base hypothesis if Toei just stuck to the clean, simple system that Toriyama devised, where your base power is that of a SSjG and your only form beyond is SSjB. But they just had to bring the old forms back in for fanservice, and if I were in their shoes, two bases would probably be the solution closest to elegant in my head.

Toriyama put the other super saiyan forms back in.

Come now. We know all bad decisions are Toei's fault. Toriyama would never had Goku use regular Super Saiyan again, despite saying he would in an interview.

From the scanlations I can see Beerus doesn't really make a comment on Super Saiyan Goku's power other than he can see why he beat Frieza. When he turned Super Saiyan 3, Beerus says "Not bad...I'm almost impressed".

I'd say Trunks being pretty good and Goku being almost impressive would make it sound as though Trunks were better.

Beerus could have mellow out. I mean, he's sitting back in a law chair eating and enjoying the show. Not quite the same thing when he was looking at Goku the first time.

[Faisal Shourov]

I think both sides have good arguments that make sense. No statements were made about characters progressing so much on the 2 base theory side, and the 2 base theory was never stated inuniverse, nor were we even shown that base goku or vegeta, getting their ass kicked and then they power up while in base and boom they r on a completely different level.

I think the most obvious choice is that, toei doesnt really care, and just makes those fights cos it looks cool.

Just shows how bad the show is to be honest. You have to shut your brain to enjoy the show and ignore the contradictions

[ahill1]

But the anime is the real canon, right? I remember in a debate with you I brought up the manga and you said you don't quite consider it because it's from the manga...

To quote TFS Chilled, "I change my mind a lot!". But seriously, that was me proposing a theory that the manga is "canon" (well, nog really, since DB has no canon... I guess "in-continuity") to the original manga and movies due to Toriyama's supervision, outlines, and occasional editing. Super would then be the "anime continuity" with tons of Toei stuff that doesn't necessarily apply to the movies and manga. Much like the manga for the original series differs from the anime.

Correct if I'm wrong, but Toriyama has only influences in the anime now, right? The manga is being made by a different person, no?

[TheMikado]

From the scanlations I can see Beerus doesn't really make a comment on Super Saiyan Goku's power other than he can see why he beat Frieza. When he turned Super Saiyan 3, Beerus says "Not bad...I'm almost impressed".

I'd say Trunks being pretty good and Goku being almost impressive would make it sound as though Trunks were better.

It sounds about the same to me and we don't know if he meant by comparison. The first in comparison to SSG and the second in comparison to Goku/Vegeta.

We already know Beerus knows that Frieza was #1 in the universe except for Buu so that's a pretty big complement right there. In the case of trunks it's pretty impressive that this random kid is number 4 in the universe.