Things that grind your gears

[MetaMoss]

Based on Herms' History Thread, Gohan was born on Age 757. Cell Games happened on Age 767, so Gohan was 10 in the CG (Physically 11 due to RoSaT trip). So yeah, it kinda feels odd for them to call him "Teen Gohan".

I propose that we call this Gohan "Tween Gohan".

[fadeddreams5]

It isn't "serious" like Z was, and I will ignore the fact that I watched Z when I was much younger, and deny the fact that it hasn't changed, but that I grew older, so the gags and such seem more prevalent, when in reality it is very similar to the previous series (Z) and its final story arc (Buu Saga).

If you can't see the difference in tone and/or balance between Z and Super, I don't know what to say, but it's a fact, in all honesty.

Which itself was already the source of endless, not so well explained plot points and unclear power scaling, as well as ushered in the return of of more gags, long before Kai or Super even existed.

I'm pretty sure everyone knew who was stronger than who in Z.

Finally, I will ignore that half the Freeza fight in Z was interrupted repeatedly by Bulma and Ginyu gags, and Chi-chi, Roshi, Yajerobi and Puar acting like they were going to head to namek too.

The difference is this never undercut the drama as it happened. For example, when it cutaway to Bulma, it wasn't her in the battlefield interrupting the fight or making gags in the middle of it. We were just shown what she was up...elsewhere. Mind you, 9 times out of 10, I disliked this, but it can easily be skipped. In Super, you cannot skip this because it's happening in the middle of the actual fight.

Which leads us to...

I will especially look back on the Cell Games with extra rosy tinted glasses, and gloss over the fact that the pacing of the whole tournament was nearly ruined by all the cut-aways to Mr. Satan and his cronies talking about "tricks" to the announcer with the broken microphone

Nobody... NOBODY liked this. It was the most frustratingly terrible thing to happen in such an amazing part of Z. And yet, this is exactly what Super does ALL the time.

[Anime Kitten]

I propose that we call this Gohan "Tween Gohan".

Baby Gohan, Toddler Gohan, Kid Gohan, Tween Gohan, Teen Gohan, Adult Gohan... so many Gohans that don't do anything anymore.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why can't we just call him "Gohan," and trust that the readers are smart enough to know which one we're talking about?

[Anime Kitten]

Why can't we just call him "Gohan," and trust that the readers are smart enough to know which one we're talking about?

Can't do that in video games when Gohan has separate slots.

[nite_jay]

Why can't we just call him "Gohan," and trust that the readers are smart enough to know which one we're talking about?

Can't do that in video games when Gohan has separate slots.

Maybe call him "Young Gohan"?

[Anime Kitten]

Maybe call him "Young Gohan"?

Typically he's separated into Kid Gohan, Teen Gohan, and Adult Gohan (usually just listed as Gohan). So, they need to change it to Kid Gohan, Tween Gohan, and Teen Gohan.

[Cetra]

Why can't we just call him "Gohan," and trust that the readers are smart enough to know which one we're talking about?

Can't do that in video games when Gohan has separate slots.

Variables in programs can have the same names (and as value it is even easier) but it really depends. If you do the wrong thing you might end up overriding one of them. It can also be really easy if Gohan is a String called "name" with the value "Gohan". You could write many of them. It is really a matter of context.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why can't we just call him "Gohan," and trust that the readers are smart enough to know which one we're talking about?

Can't do that in video games when Gohan has separate slots.

With Goku, the Tenkaichi series just did "Early," "Mid," "End." It's not that difficult. And it's not even so much as the video games doing it that bothers me. People do it in casual discussion.

[floofychan333]

How every character, smart or dumb, can be unbelievably stupid when their intelligence is needed most. (Looking at you, Bulma and Piccolo.)

[Akira]

Oh yeah, that reminds me of the one I forgot to mention. (I knew there was one I forgot when I typed up that first one!) Post dissection, picking and choosing individual lines to play point/counter-point nit-pick through what someone else said. You get scenarios like this:

[Quote: A piece of someone else's post, potentially taking it partially out of context.]
Wrong, fact.

[Quote: A piece of someone else's post, potentially taking it partially out of context.]
So wrong, why would you think that? Character X was way stronger than Y.

[Quote: A piece of someone else's post, potentially taking it partially out of context.]
You might be partially right here, but on the whole, still wrong.

That grinds my gears too, because no one wants to read through all of that.


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Let me apologize to fadeddreams5 right now, because while his post reminded me of this (due to the format), but I'm not picking on him personally, nor am I intending to imply that his post takes anything out of context. While he used the format I dislike, he did fairly quote me and responded to the points he wanted to address. I dislike the rebuttal style, but I did not dislike his post in particular.

I will respond to fadeddreams5's critiques directly here:

I really can't tell a huge difference between Z and Super. The animation style is separated by many years, obviously, and the story goes in new directions, but it feels like a direct continuation/evolution of where the Z series left off at the end of the Buu fight. I would shrug my shoulders here if there was an emoticon for that, not in dismissal of your statement, but just in a "not a big deal" kind of way. It really just boils down to personal reception and perception of the new material, doesn't it? I mean, you either like it and accept it, or you don't, so it can be ignored if you choose (a good example of my "a la carte" solution). I really have nothing to argue at all with what you said in your first statement except the word "fact", as it is really an opinion based viewpoint. What I said or what you said, just two opinions on the matter, and not really worth arguing. I will even say definitively that your opinion has merit, and I can understand where you are coming from on this one. I think it all depends on what aspects of the Dragonball formula resonate with an individual fan as to how different or similar it feels. I think we could agree on that much?

I disagree with your second statement, as a cursory look around these very forums will reveal a regular weekly thread about the Buu saga. Gohan vs Dabura, which Buu form was strongest, which saiyan was most powerful at the end, you name it, there's probably a separate thread about it right now. So, while I personally wish your statement was true, and that everyone was capable of watching the show and being able to tell who was stronger than who in Z, it unfortunately is not the case. It was confusing enough that people are still adamantly arguing about it to this day, which is a real bummer. You and I, yeah your statement holds water, but not for the fandom on the whole it seems.

You're absolutely right on the Bulma on Namek point, it was easily skippable. I may very well have gotten a tad overzealous throwing that in there as an example. It doesn't support the point I was trying to make very well at all, does it? I'll meet you halfway on the Cell Games one, it isn't easily skippable, and does partially support my point that Z was not exempt from these same types of scenarios happening in it. Yet, you are correct that it is much more interlaced and nonstop with what's happening in Super to the point of being nearly unavoidable. It is really the level of annoyance to the individual viewer that dictates just how much of an issue it is. So, we'll meet in the middle on that one?

Finally, I accept your fair critiques on my post. I did go a little over the top, partially in the interest of humor in addition to airing my gear grinding scenarios. I knew I might, scratch that, probably would, annoy a few people with my positions. Your response made me re-think it a bit. I also respect that you didn't full out flame me for it either, just pointed out where you thought the weaknesses were in my post. I may not care for the quote/counter point template, but you are an example of not abusing it. Thanks for the response!

[ryou766]

Goten, Trunks, and their premature ascension to Super Saiyans.

[Kamiccolo9]

I dunno about the Bulma stuff in the Freeza Arc being any more or less skippable than the rest of the filler. Sure, she has a few filler episodes that you can skip, but there's plenty of it scattered throughout the manga material as well. The Bulma/Ginyu subplot comes to mind.

As for the whole line-by-line quoting reply thing, it's fucking annoying, not to mention against the forum rules. So stahp.

[Bansho64]

Don't peg yourself into one category or the other, give that other version another shot, you might find something in it that you end up liking, or a plot detail that you never fully appreciated before.

I can personally vouch for this since I gave this idea a try a while ago. Before coming to this forum, I was mainly a person who had grown up with the Kai broadcast and had just gotten into the Japanese version. I had heard of the Ocean dub because of a couple of older fans I've come across but almost all of them said that hated it and that the voices were horrible. When I came to this forum, I saw a lot of people who liked it and I thought that maybe I should give it a try. After seeing it, there were many changes but I'm actually starting to love it. The 3 Pioneer movies were great and I've come to love the Ocean cast a lot( Scott McNeil's now my favorite english VA ). When I first came to this forum I was a bit hesitant and cynical to anything dub involved besides Kai but I've come to like some of them in their own way.

[Grimlock]

Now that some mention before, a lot of people refer to Buu-saga Gohan as "adult Gohan", even though he's 16 years old. He's not seen as adult until 2008's OVA Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!

[saiyanvegetable]

What grinds my gears? Well, you asked, so here goes..


-Any variation of this: "Dragonball Super sux because it doesn't follow my power charts that I spent years making prior to its release. Even though it follows closely to the original formula of world building and expansion, character interactions, martial arts action, and a healthy dose of gags, it isn't what my expectations were. Therefore, I'll become the never ending nag with snide remarks in every thread I come across to make my dis-satisfaction known to all. Even if it slowly improves as it goes along, and I keep watching a pirated version of it regardless of my hate, nothing in it makes any sense whatsoever. I'll hand wave any in-universe explanations away as nonsense rather than participate in any discussion about it. My goal is to rob anyone who does enjoy it from being able to do so. It isn't "serious" like Z was, and I will ignore the fact that I watched Z when I was much younger, and deny the fact that it hasn't changed, but that I grew older, so the gags and such seem more prevalent, when in reality it is very similar to the previous series (Z) and its final story arc (Buu Saga). Which itself was already the source of endless, not so well explained plot points and unclear power scaling, as well as ushered in the return of of more gags, long before Kai or Super even existed. Finally, I will ignore that half the Freeza fight in Z was interrupted repeatedly by Bulma and Ginyu gags, and Chi-chi, Roshi, Yajerobi and Puar acting like they were going to head to namek too. I will especially look back on the Cell Games with extra rosy tinted glasses, and gloss over the fact that the pacing of the whole tournament was nearly ruined by all the cut-aways to Mr. Satan and his cronies talking about "tricks" to the announcer with the broken microphone, and pretend like Super is the only series to have a bunch of time padding nonsense interjected via the Pilaf gang as if that hasn't always been the case all along."

Really any variation of of your post really pisses me off. There is such a clear difference in Z and Super that posts like yours are, sorry to say, asinine. Z was more serious, and its lighthearted moments did not undercut the drama the way Super does. It didn't rely on them as a crutch. All the "world building and expansion'" in Super is lazy, period. "In universe explanations" consist of guessing, retconning, ignoring blatant errors, and head canon. It's just bad writing. Character interactions have been reduced to caricature squabbles and if that fails, food gags.

At the bottom of my nerd rage is a very simple point - it's a bad, bad show. You can't ignore it and you can't talk your way out of it. Critically speaking, objectively, whatever - it's a fucking fact. And that is where the frustration lies, not that "oh well X is supposed to be stronger than Y, I can't believe they fucked this up wow what a terrible show". Everything from the art, animation, writing, story arcs, etc. is worse than mediocre. Piccolo dying in Super is one of the best examples of how hollow this show is and just how desperate Toei is to capture the "magic" that was in DB and Z. And I may be shouting into the void but in all honesty I'd rather do that then play along.

Z wasn't perfect, but it's strong over the top fight choreography, simple but relatable characters that made for strong interactions, and sense of adventure brought a charm that for many made up for it's faults. I understand it was to sell merchandise but it wasn't the soulless piece of shit cash grab that Super is.

[Kamiccolo9]

I've noticed a lot of things seem to piss you off. Maybe you should avoid forums. That kind of constant negativity is bad for your health.

[saiyanvegetable]

I've noticed a lot of things seem to piss you off. Maybe you should avoid forums. That kind of constant negativity is bad for your health.

I'm an old man sitting on my lawn just waiting for those damn kids...

[MetaMoss]

People trying to dismiss other's opinions of the series in order to somehow bolster their own. At the end of the day, there will always be someone else who enjoys things you dislike and/or despises things you like, and that's okay. This certainly extends far past Dragon Ball fandom, though.

[dbzfan7]

Power level threads. They're nothing but dick waving competitions now. Cancerous and no longer a fun community past time. Just lots of people waving their ego's around and asserting their stance is the right one, while being completely condescending to everyone else. There is nothing to gain from them unless you love smacking your head against a brick wall.

Canon debates. Basically the same as power levels. Pretty much treating a childrens show as holy scriptures and proclamations of who's religious scriptures are the right one to follow. It's basically a religious debate without actual world religions being involved.

Bothering to contribute when not having a single positive or good thing to say. I don't get the point. I'm fine with someone being mostly negative, but good lord if there isn't a shred of a good thing for someone to enjoy, why bother? Shouldn't even bother following something there's nothing to enjoy. I know I stopped following things I don't enjoy anymore, or have nothing good to say, as it'd just end up tediously pissing off the people who do enjoy what they're watching.

Gohan's treatment. He is not ruined. He is in character. He isn't OOC at any point. Still he's constantly embarrassed, has to relearn lessons he already learned, and even his other life is not relevant enough to be useful to the story. So neither being a fighter or family man does anything for him. Which is why the boys with no character, and the damn Pilaf gang are more important than he is. Though the other annoying thing is how it's always an extreme with people discussing this topic. Either be useless, or be super uber unrealistic out of character Gohan who loves fighting and punts people into the sun. It's never just have an interesting character who fights for completely different reasons than Goku and Vegeta (You know, like before Future Trunks was a thing.), but also actually has a life out of fighting and food boners.

Reusing older characters/character traits in new characters. We've had this arguably since Krillin, but it really is something that bothers me. Instead of making new compelling characters, a chunk of them just try to basically replace the old ones, by basically being the old ones with a new body.