The new SSJ forms in context with the old ones (DBS Ep. 49)

[sintzu]

At the end of BOG Goku's base, Ssj & Ssjg were the same in terms of power but Vegeta saying that he'd be the one to do the ritual next implies that it may have been temporary and Goku went back to normal after he absorbed Beerus' attack so him using his old forms would make sense.

The biggest problem is RF, they told us that Goku did keep the power and Vegeta seemingly did the ritual and also kept its power and due to Ssj not giving Goku any extra power, there would be no reason for him and Vegeta to transform.

But no, they introduced a Blue Ssj form and said it was just Ssj but the hair was Blue due to them having God Ki which would be fine if Goku didn't go Ssj against Beerus but he did and his hair didn't change to Blue.

Now we find out that they access both Yellow and Blue Ssj even thought they told us that they weren't different forms.

And then there's the Ssjb Kaioken mess...

What they should've done is what they did in BOG, have SsjG only accessible through the ritual which means they can't use it whenever they want so in order to get stronger they'd train with Whis to prefect their Ssj3 form and only use the ritual as a last resort.

But no, they want to sell cards and toys so they'll just through as many forms at us as they can without thinking twice about in-universe logic.

[miguelnuva1]

To be fair in Toei World Goku and Vegeta never start off at their strongest.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku and Vegeta can simply turn on and off their God Ki, but their is no visual cue whatsoever when they do so. That is the major problem.

[ekrolo2]

Goku and Vegeta can simply turn on and off their God Ki, but their is no visual cue whatsoever when they do so. That is the major problem.

I mean, its a needlessly over complicated idea but they at least could've given their regular base states a white aura then their God ones a fiery white one or something. But honestly, I don't think anyone on the writing staff is thinking too much about this stuff.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku and Vegeta can simply turn on and off their God Ki, but their is no visual cue whatsoever when they do so. That is the major problem.

I mean, its a needlessly over complicated idea but they at least could've given their regular base states a white aura then their God ones a fiery white one or something. But honestly, I don't think anyone on the writing staff is thinking too much about this stuff.

That would be the most ideal scenario, but here is the main problem: Nobody had any long terms ideas or plans for the creative direction of Dragon Ball following Battle Of Gods. It's literally been a case of throwing shit up against the wall and seeing what sticks. If Toriyama, or anybody within Toei, had the wherewithal to know here Dragon Ball would progress in the next 3-5 years following Battle Of Gods, shit like Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Golden Freeza, God Ki and Dragon Ball Super as a whole, would be radically different.

[Akira]

It is stupid simple guys. It even happened in Z via a different method. While not "God Ki", Elder Kai could unlock maximum potential of normal Ki in a fighter.

So for Gohan, there was two options available to him:

1> Base > Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan 2
or
2> Base > Ultimate Base (Surpassing the need for Super Saiyan)

In Super, Goku and Vegeta have normal ki and godly ki. The godly ki can be used or not used.

Goku hasn't lost anything, he just had different paths available to him now as well:

1> Base > Super Saiyan (And can still transform to Super Saiyan 2 or 3 if he so chooses, although it is no longer necessary)

2> Base > Godly Ki infused base (Like his version of "Ultimate/Mystic") > Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (Blue)

So, in his fight against Trunks, he didn't unleash his Godly ki, simple, obvious, not bogus, or nonsensical, or whatever.

Short and to the point, no?

[ekrolo2]

It is stupid simple guys. It even happened in Z via a different method. While not "God Ki", Elder Kai could unlock maximum potential of normal Ki in a fighter.

So for Gohan, there was two options available to him:

1> Base > Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan 2
or
2> Base > Ultimate Base (Surpassing the need for Super Saiyan)

In Super, Goku and Vegeta have normal ki and godly ki. The godly ki can be used or not used.

Goku hasn't lost anything, he just had different paths available to him now as well:

1> Base > Super Saiyan (And can still transform to Super Saiyan 2 or 3 if he so chooses, although it is no longer necessary)

2> Base > Godly Ki infused base (Like his version of "Ultimate/Mystic") > Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (Blue)

So, in his fight against Trunks, he didn't unleash his Godly ki, simple, obvious, not bogus, or nonsensical, or whatever.

Short and to the point, no?

I prefer the GT method of "new form achieved, its the strongest one, all the shit from before functions the same as before"

[Akira]

I don't understand, all the "shit from before" DOES function like it did before..

Even in GT, Goku had to go back and extend off the Oozaru transformation route. It is the same thing there, two routes, two optional paths to use as deemed necessary:

1> Base > Super Saiyan > 2 > 3
2> Base > Oozaru > Super Oozaru > Super Saiyan 4
Which then is just magically adult form and can be gotten to straight from base kid form. (And has pants in the correct size too)

I'm not trying to trash GT, I actually like its transformations and such too, but it is no different than Super in there being a new, optional/alternate path to power (no pun intended).

[TheMikado]

I don't understand, all the "shit from before" DOES function like it did before..

Even in GT, Goku had to go back and extend off the Oozaru transformation route. It is the same thing there, two routes, two optional paths to use as deemed necessary:

1> Base > Super Saiyan > 2 > 3
2> Base > Oozaru > Super Oozaru > Super Saiyan 4
Which then is just magically adult form and can be gotten to straight from base kid form. (And has pants in the correct size too)

I'm not trying to trash GT, I actually like its transformations and such too, but it is no different than Super in there being a new, optional/alternate path to power (no pun intended).

I think the problem people are having is that in Super you don't know when their God Ki is on or off in base.

[Mac]

A simple aura change or something would've been enough. It being a guessing game is just a pain.

[TheMikado]

A simple aura change or something would've been enough. It being a guessing game is just a pain.

Especially if we have no idea if we she be worried or not. If it's just low power base its hard to feel tension when Goku has 5 other forms plus Kkx10 he can fall back on.

[buutenks]

Well, either all characters got insanely powerful, or goku and vegeta simply choose when to use god ki.

[Captain Strawberry]

The only explanation is, he didn't use the gosh ki that he absorbed. So at the moment, he's not using it at the moment and it's disconnected from him.

[kaioken12]

Toggling god-ki is all nice and stuff, but what I don't get then is the "in-universe logic" of this.

Let's take Goku for an example in this proposed system.

So he can use his normal ki or infuse it with god ki and get way stronger. This would be his "beyond god" base vs. Freeza.
But if he can just do that, why would he even use his "normal" SSJ without god ki any longer?

Since SSJ forms put a strain on his body, wouldn't it be easier to just use the new base form instead?

It would only make sense to use SSJ if it conserves energy compared to the "beyond god" base.
Now, we know SSJB uses a lot of stamina. So maybe God ki infusion by itself ("beyond god") does so, too.

Then the use of SSJ would be absolutely understandable, if the "beyond god" base would burn away significantly more stamina.
At the same time, SSJ2 (or SSJ3) would only become obsolete, if the "beyond god" base doesn't need much more stamina than those forms (i.e. "beyond god" would have to be more cost-efficient).
But then, where was the point of going SSJ3 (*the* known stamina eating form) against Trunks now? Or fighting Black as SSJ2?

Also we would have to assume that Goku and Vegeta indeed just fought as "normal" SSJ in the tournament, since this is their form without god ki.
But then the U6 guys would have been unbelievably weak... and Piccolo would by now be significantly weaker than a normal SSJ.

In my opinion, this is all still very weird and not as consistent as it should be. Toggleable god ki doesn't really solve this problem for me.

[Akira]

How does it not make sense? The base with God ki is like the equivalent of their "Ultimate form", so it should be on par or above what Super Saiyan 3 can output power-wise. Goku knows that he is over powered now compared to most foes, so when he wants to hold back, he uses the gold Super Saiyan transformations for smaller boosts. When he gets serious, he can activate God ki and then go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if need be.

The Universe 6 guys were relatively weak compared to Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo only lost to Frost because of the same poison needle that took Goku out. Had that fight played out by normal means, I believe Piccolo would have won. He may be a bit rusty, but Piccolo, when he fought Android #17, was on par with Goku and Vegeta at Super Saiyan 1 or slightly higher than that. (By Super Saiyan 1, I mean Goku's fight on Namek with Freeza, and Vegeta's fight with Android #19 levels of power) So even if we assume he did nothing to improve since then, he should have been a decent fight for someone (by my estimations) who was a bit above Freeza on Namek (Frost in Universe 6 Tournament). Even if we assume Frost was a fair bit stronger than that, we could also assume that in ten years, Piccolo has grown stronger too, so it still levels out, however you want to scale it. Remember, Nail told Piccolo that if he had returned to Namek as his complete self, Freeza would be no match for him. So, there's that bit of information to consider as well, seeing as Piccolo is his complete self now, plus Nail.

[kaioken12]

Well, it's not that I would not get where you are coming from... but I still find it to be quite inconsistent.

About Piccolo vs. Frost - we have to focus on what was presented. They presented that Goku was asked by Piccolo, if the latter would stand a chance against Frost - which Goku denied.
Piccolo resorted to a "distract + special beam cannon" strategy. We know that the "special beam cannon" is a move that multiplies his power and focuses said power into a single attack.
The question would be, why would he do that if he was truly a match for Frost and would have won in a normal way?
We know that Piccolo was way above Freeza during the Android arc. So either Piccolo became weaker than that or Frost is way stronger than Freeza was back then.
In the latter case, SSJ1 would have to be way stronger than before.

Then there was Goku vs. Freeza, where Goku stated he would not need to go SSJ anymore. This would indeed tell us that his new base would be comparable to his "ultimate form".
Going by base water-copy Vegeta vs. SSJ3 Gotenks, we would have to place the upgraded "beyond god" base well above Goku SSJ3 tier, since he was rofl-stomping SSJ3 Gotenks.
If we assume that copy-Vegeta used his "beyond god" base, that is.

Furthermore, it was said that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just "upgraded" variants of SSJ1. Since they eat up way more stamina, Goku wanted to focus on training his SSJ1.
Furthermore, he can also go SSJB, which is his strongest form. Speculation on my part would be now, that SSJ2 and 3 are less "cost-efficient" than SSJ1 / "beyond-god" / SSJB.
Because if it would be different, then they would certainly go SSJ2 or SSJ3, before employing "beyond-god" base or SSJB.
But then, why would Goku use SSJ2 or SSJ3 now? I do see, how he is able to, but I do not see how this would make any sense apart from uselessly burning up his stamina... weird.

[TheMikado]

^ basically this, especially when we are told in Super that SSB is more energy efficient. It would seem it would make more seem to Go SSB and surpress down as necessary than using SSJ3. Especially since we don't know how much stronger SSB actually compared to SSJ3 when Gokus SSJ1 is now are SSG levels.

[ekrolo2]

I don't understand, all the "shit from before" DOES function like it did before..

Even in GT, Goku had to go back and extend off the Oozaru transformation route. It is the same thing there, two routes, two optional paths to use as deemed necessary:

1> Base > Super Saiyan > 2 > 3
2> Base > Oozaru > Super Oozaru > Super Saiyan 4
Which then is just magically adult form and can be gotten to straight from base kid form. (And has pants in the correct size too)

I'm not trying to trash GT, I actually like its transformations and such too, but it is no different than Super in there being a new, optional/alternate path to power (no pun intended).

The thing is, the newest forms are still the strongest. Yes, they went back and extended and old line but the Golden Oozaru and 4 are still the strongest forms in GT. Goku's base and previous attained forms didn't fundamentally start running on some new, barely explained source of energy just because of the newest form he got.

That's the problem with Super: no one knows how God Ki works. In the movies, it's just a stronger form of ki and that's it, in the Super Manga and Super TV show, it's a separate form of energy they can tap into. This would be all fine and dandy if you didn't have the whole bullshit surrounding Goku & Vegeta's base forms in the TV show where they're stronger than Gotenks but still feel the need to power down to match fodder like Future Trunks then power back up to match said fodders transformations.

[TheMikado]

^ not to mention the SSG form still being in manga at the exact part of the sequence where people think the legendary 2nd base would be.. I just don't know what to think.

[ChiefWamsutta]

At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta can only be beaten by two people in their own universe. They have to look to other universes to EVEN have any competition.

No one is even close to a match for them now, so the game plan is to go really easy on everyone and don't try at all -- you'll get a good fight this way. All they have ever wanted to do is fight and train. The 'Why' is a very easy question to answer.

Everyone here in this thread is thinking all too logically and not understanding the emotion behind Goku and Vegeta's choices. They are not logical fighters. They're self-centered and choose to fight anyone and everyone who they can get their hands on. They don't plan out fights ... they don't calculate the boost one form can give minus the strain it causes -- we here at Kanzenshuu do that. They don't -- they just follow their emotions and fight. My best friend is a professional MMA fighter and this is how he thinks too.

EDIT: I hope this didn't come across as snarky to anyone. I am trying to present a view beyond the semantics of God Ki and the Two-Base Theory that allows us to look through the eyes of the characters.