Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

From the scanlations I can see Beerus doesn't really make a comment on Super Saiyan Goku's power other than he can see why he beat Frieza. When he turned Super Saiyan 3, Beerus says "Not bad...I'm almost impressed".

I'd say Trunks being pretty good and Goku being almost impressive would make it sound as though Trunks were better.

It sounds about the same to me and we don't know if he meant by comparison. The first in comparison to SSG and the second in comparison to Goku/Vegeta.

We already know Beerus knows that Frieza was #1 in the universe except for Buu so that's a pretty big complement right there. In the case of trunks it's pretty impressive that this random kid is number 4 in the universe.

what about goku calling trunks' growth unbelievable & surprising in 13 years despite himself surpassing mystic gohan in 11 years ?

[Bullza]

I can't see Goku holding back against Trunks like some people have said now actually.

The entire purpose of Goku sparring with Trunks was to find out how this mysterious Black character measured up in comparison to himself. What would be the point in him suppressing himself so he could just be told that Black was stronger than his enormously suppressed self?

What on earth is he gonna learn from that? Plus nobody said that Goku was holding back either.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

[Saturnine]

I can't see Goku holding back against Trunks like some people have said now actually.

The entire purpose of Goku sparring with Trunks was to find out how this mysterious Black character measured up in comparison to himself. What would be the point in him suppressing himself so he could just be told that Black was stronger than his enormously suppressed self?

What on earth is he gonna learn from that? Plus nobody said that Goku was holding back either.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

Actually SBG is also detectable by non-gods.

[apex_pretador]

I can't see Goku holding back against Trunks like some people have said now actually.

The entire purpose of Goku sparring with Trunks was to find out how this mysterious Black character measured up in comparison to himself. What would be the point in him suppressing himself so he could just be told that Black was stronger than his enormously suppressed self?

What on earth is he gonna learn from that? Plus nobody said that Goku was holding back either.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

Holding back =/= suppressed

Goku was holding back against krillin in 22nd TB but he was not suppressed.

In their "sparring" , goku did nothing but let trunks hit him.

[Chiki]

I can't see Goku holding back against Trunks like some people have said now actually.

The entire purpose of Goku sparring with Trunks was to find out how this mysterious Black character measured up in comparison to himself. What would be the point in him suppressing himself so he could just be told that Black was stronger than his enormously suppressed self?

What on earth is he gonna learn from that? Plus nobody said that Goku was holding back either.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

It was already stated in the RoF arc in Super that Saiyan beyond God can be sensed. There's nothing to debate about.

We know all bad decisions are Toei's fault.

Wrong, Goku and Vegeta went SSJ in the manga too.

the story showed half-blooded Saiyans gained power much faster than pure-blooded ones. The characters couldn't conceive Super Saiyans brats, giving how difficult it was to achieve the transformation, unless there was a prodigious thing happening there. I believe the Daizenshuu books had a word on it, citing tailless Saiyans as having super potential, no?

The Daizenshuu was contradicted by Vegeta's statement saying that Gohan had the greatest potential out of anyone, and that statement included Kid Trunks and Goten. Also, Future Trunks trained for a second time in the ROSAT alone for 1 year and barely had a power increase. How the heck would he reach SSG level?

Beerus said that he'd absorbed the power and so his power had barely dropped but he was Super Saiyan at the time. Toriyama just said he'd made the power his own.

They've never specifically said that Goku in his Base form is exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God.

And the movie, manga and even the Dragon Ball Heroes game have all shown Super Saiyan God to be a bit more powerful.

I consider BoG more canon than the anime version because it has more influence from Toriyama himself, and in that version, Goku's Base is stated to have not dropped much in power.

[ssbgoku]

I can't see Goku holding back against Trunks like some people have said now actually.

The entire purpose of Goku sparring with Trunks was to find out how this mysterious Black character measured up in comparison to himself. What would be the point in him suppressing himself so he could just be told that Black was stronger than his enormously suppressed self?

What on earth is he gonna learn from that? Plus nobody said that Goku was holding back either.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

Holding back =/= suppressed

Goku was holding back against krillin in 22nd TB but he was not suppressed.

In their "sparring" , goku did nothing but let trunks hit him.

Bold part yes, that is exactly my point.

You can restrict all your strength to just 30% but still go all out with all your techniques and efforts while using only so much strength. That exactly how goku did against trunks and most likely this supressed ssj3 goku >= bog ssj3 goku

[Bullza]

It was already stated in the RoF arc in Super that Saiyan beyond God can be sensed. There's nothing to debate about.

....what does that have to do with anything? His Saiyan Beyond God self aka his Base form is not as strong as his current Super Saiyan 3 form.

Being as how his Super Saiyan Blue form would not be sensed by Trunks then Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 is the strongest that he can get whilst being sensed like I said.

I consider BoG more canon than the anime version because it has more influence from Toriyama himself, and in that version, Goku's Base is stated to have not dropped much in power.

Well Goku wasn't in Base when that was stated. He can't be that much weaker than Super Saiyan God but he does appear to be.

In the movie Base Goku gets overwhelmed by Beerus' attack. Super Saiyan God Goku destroys it.

In the manga Base Goku is a match for a casual suppressed Hit. Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than a serious suppressed Hit.

In Dragon Ball Heroes Base (SBG) Goku is worth +6,000 power which is more than Super Saiyan 2 and 3 (and 4) and the same as Super Saiyan Beyond Limit which I think was from when they all powered him up before he first became a SSJG.

Super Saiyan God though is worth +8,000. Super Saiyan Blue is +9,000.

So none of those three at least have him quite as strong as Super Saiyan God.

[LowRyder2005]

Dragon Ball Heroes actually strengthens his point, though: there is no "Super Saiyan Beyond God", nor a "Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God" and so on.
The Base "Beyond God" is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, stronger than that there are only the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue forms. All forms prior - the "golden" ones - follow the same chain we have always known.

[Chiki]

....what does that have to do with anything?

Are you serious? You made a wrong statement, I corrected you. It's that simple.

Him going SSJ3 is the strongest that he can get whilst still having Trunks be able to sense him.

You claimed Goku can't be sensed in SBG. You were wrong, so I told you you were wrong.

Well Goku wasn't in Base when that was stated.

Doesn't matter since Goku puts up a much better fight in Base compared to his SSJ3 form, meaning he got a good chunk of the SSG power in Base.

It's fine if SBG is weaker than SSG, Beerus said so himself. The two base theory is completely fine with SBG being a little weaker than SSG. I just call it SSG for the sake of simplicity.

[WittyUsername]

Dragon Ball Heroes actually strengthens his point, though: there is no "Super Saiyan Beyond God", nor a "Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God" and so on.
The Base "Beyond God" is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, stronger than that there are only the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue forms. All forms prior - the "golden" ones - follow the same chain we have always known.

What exactly does that mean though?

[Bullza]

Dragon Ball Heroes actually strengthens his point, though: there is no "Super Saiyan Beyond God", nor a "Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God" and so on.

Well there's no Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken either.

Saiyan Beyond God is just the powered up Base Goku who fought Beerus and Frieza. The Super Saiyan Goku that fought Beerus would technically be a Super Saiyan Beyond God but that wasn't something that was advertised unlike the former.

Are you serious? You made a wrong statement, I corrected you. It's that simple.

But there is no wrong statement...

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku in his base form. Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Goku in his base form...

You claimed Goku can't be sensed in SBG. You were wrong, so I told you you were wrong.

But I never said that in the first place so why are you telling me I'm wrong for saying something I didn't say?

Doesn't matter since Goku puts up a much better fight in Base compared to his SSJ3 form, meaning he got a good chunk of the SSG power in Base.

Yeah, again what does this have to do with anything? So Base Goku after absorbing God's power was stronger than SSJ3 Goku before absorbing God's power, I know that.

I'm talking about the SSJ3 Goku as of now.

[LowRyder2005]

Dragon Ball Heroes actually strengthens his point, though: there is no "Super Saiyan Beyond God", nor a "Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God" and so on.

Well there's no Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken either.

There is. It's apparently called "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: Kaio-ken"; I suppose it stacks the Kaioken and the SSB bonus.

[Chiki]

Dragon Ball Heroes actually strengthens his point, though: there is no "Super Saiyan Beyond God", nor a "Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God" and so on.

Well there's no Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken either.

Saiyan Beyond God is just the powered up Base Goku who fought Beerus and Frieza. The Super Saiyan Goku that fought Beerus would technically be a Super Saiyan Beyond God but that wasn't something that was advertised unlike the former.

Are you serious? You made a wrong statement, I corrected you. It's that simple.

But there is no wrong statement...

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku in his base form. Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Goku in his base form...

You claimed Goku can't be sensed in SBG. You were wrong, so I told you you were wrong.

But I never said that in the first place so why are you telling me I'm wrong for saying something I didn't say?

Doesn't matter since Goku puts up a much better fight in Base compared to his SSJ3 form, meaning he got a good chunk of the SSG power in Base.

Yeah, again what does this have to do with anything? So Base Goku after absorbing God's power was stronger than SSJ3 Goku before absorbing God's power, I know that.

I'm talking about the SSJ3 Goku as of now.

The problem here is that you were trying to argue against the two base theory by saying that Goku wouldn't hold back against Trunks (which the two base theory alleges that he does). You think the two base theory is false, so you think that the two base theory can't explain why he only went SSJ3 and not SBG. But the problem is that he can go SBG and be sensed.. the problem here is that he chooses not to use godly ki for a challenge, I guess, just like the folks at U6.

Yeah, again what does this have to do with anything?

Well Goku wasn't in Base when that was stated. He can't be that much weaker than Super Saiyan God but he does appear to be.

He can't be "that much weaker" than SSG since he put up an incredible fight against Beerus in Base and he is as strong as someone who can own SSJ3 Gotenks in Base, for example.

[Bullza]

You think the two base theory is false, so you think that the two base theory can't explain why he only went SSJ3 and not SBG. But the problem is that he can go SBG and be sensed.. the problem here is that he chooses not to use godly ki for a challenge, I guess, just like the folks at U6.

Goku doesn't "go" SBG. SBG is just what Base form is now after having absorbed the God power.

As a Super Saiyan he's more powerful and as a Super Saiyan 3 he's at the highest level he can be at that can also be sensed.

Hence Goku put out his highest level of power possible that Trunks could sense so that it could be compared to Black.

[ZombieVito]

Goku fought well against Black with just SSJ2.

That confirms he just toyed with Trunks last week.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Turns out that Goku was holding back against Trunks so there you go, none of that two base theory nonsense. He was starting off slow because that's a habit of his as he himself also said when he fought Frost. His serious self as a SSJ2 was apparently more powerful than his SSJ3 self when he fought Trunks.

So this episode tells me it goes

SSJ2 Goku >= Black => Black when he fought Trunks > SSJ2 Trunks

It looks as though Black is definitely stronger than Frieza, Frost, Magetta and Cabba but not as strong as Hit or Golden Frieza...yet.

Edit: This is what Herms said

"Trunks wonders why Goku's not using as much power as when they sparred earlier. Vegeta says taking it slow is Goku's bad habit."

"Trunks says Black was "a little" stronger fighting Goku than he was in previous battles. Goku's relived. He's no problem then!"

[Lord Beerus]

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

[Bullza]

If Black can turn Super Saiyan then perhaps he could put up a fight against Super Saiyan Blue.

[Hellspawn28]

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

I don't think we seen enough of Goku Black yet. I think he may able to fight at full power in Trunks timeline and have a special transformation in mind.

[dbzfan7]

Pretty sure Goku used the same power against Black that he did against Trunks. Trunks asked why he isn't using as much power as he did when they fought together. He doesn't say anything that Goku is way stronger when fighting Black. All it tells me is SSJ2 Goku is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, but not in a gigantic sort of way. Possibly the gap between SSJ2 Gohan and Goku in the Boo arc or more is what I think it was.

So Goku Black is at best SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta tier. Man, if Goku turned SSJB, that fight would have ended very quickly.

And Trunks won't care for some reason.