Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Most likely black was matching goku's ssj2.

[HeroR]

I've had a look at the fight now and it is a bit confusing because Trunks said Black was on par or stronger than SSJ3 Goku and then he said Black was a little stronger in this fight so Black should be more than a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

But we see that SSJ2 Goku is about equal with Black...

It's odd because if Black was a little bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks put up a much better fight against Black?

It wouldn't seem to make sense to say that SSJ3 was suppressed last episode and SSJ2 was at full power in this episode and that's why SSJ2 > SSJ3 because Trunks commented on him not using as much power as when he was a SSJ3.

As I said in the episode forum, Black was likely matching his power to Goku. He obviously wanted the fight to last so he can keep getting stronger. With Trunks, I think he meant that Black was growing in power, not just releasing more of his energy like say Perfect Cell when he was fighting Super Vegeta. Even Goku and Vegeta seemed confused about Black's ability, saying both he was getting stronger and holding back.

[Chiki]

In that case, Vegeta thinks they’ve got nothing to worry about, since Goku wasn’t using anywhere near his full power (Vegeta also notes in passing that he hasn’t shown his full power yet either). Trunks wonders why Goku and Vegeta are both so much more powerful than before, but they say it’s a long story.

It's heavily implied that Trunks doesn't have access to a power which Vegeta and Goku do have in Base (he also wasn't able to sense it either). Goku was just holding his SSG power back in Base. It was extremely heavily implied this episode.

And Trunks didn't know about this UNTIL Vegeta told him. Which basically confirms that Goku wasn't using SSG power in his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

The only way to make it more obvious that the two base theory is true is to say something like "I can access SSG power when I want to!"

[ClinicalBM]

The only way this makes sense to me is that Trunks got a lot stronger during the year of terror with Black in his world with Zenkai boosts as Black was teasing him/playing with him knowing he was the only strong SSJ opponent on the planet.
Let’s be honest Dragon Ball never makes a lot of sense in this regard. Frieza got SSBlue like power (a little more raw power even) as Golden Frieza with just what was it 6 months training due to his insane potential apparently, this level of power took Vegeta and Goku years and years to get. Taking this into account and that Vegeta, who never went SSJ3, getting a lot, a lot stronger by training with Whis and that even he went God SSJ eventually by that training, just still not near that strong for Trunks, but still insane for a SSJ2.
How else would a base (copy) Vegeta who can go God/blue mode, easily handle Gotenks SSJ3 just a few episodes ago? Trunks is superb, even Beerus was a little impressed by him.
Remember Goku still one KO’ed Trunks as a SSJ3 to end the little demonstration. It’s not like Trunks is anywhere near Gods still.

Black must have another transformation, Goku was just testing his ability. And Black has an insane Zenkai boost ability, the best seen yet probably after Hit.

[HeroR]

In that case, Vegeta thinks they’ve got nothing to worry about, since Goku wasn’t using anywhere near his full power (Vegeta also notes in passing that he hasn’t shown his full power yet either). Trunks wonders why Goku and Vegeta are both so much more powerful than before, but they say it’s a long story.

It's heavily implied that Trunks doesn't have access to a power which Vegeta and Goku do have in Base (he also wasn't able to sense it either). Goku was just holding his SSG power back in Base. It was extremely heavily implied this episode.

And Trunks didn't know about this UNTIL Vegeta told him. Which basically confirms that Goku wasn't using SSG power in his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

The only way to make it more obvious that the two base theory is true is to say something like "I can access SSG power when I want to!"

He was holding back period. Besides, Goku did noting in his Super Saiyan 2 form when Trunks was attacking him and he just one-shot Trunks as a Super Saiyan 3. So of course Goku looks stronger fighting Black since he's actually putting some effort into. It's a common thing in Dragon Ball, no two base theory necessary, especially when one said such a thing.

And no visual cue, other than fans seeing what they want to see.

[Chiki]

In that case, Vegeta thinks they’ve got nothing to worry about, since Goku wasn’t using anywhere near his full power (Vegeta also notes in passing that he hasn’t shown his full power yet either). Trunks wonders why Goku and Vegeta are both so much more powerful than before, but they say it’s a long story.

It's heavily implied that Trunks doesn't have access to a power which Vegeta and Goku do have in Base (he also wasn't able to sense it either). Goku was just holding his SSG power back in Base. It was extremely heavily implied this episode.

And Trunks didn't know about this UNTIL Vegeta told him. Which basically confirms that Goku wasn't using SSG power in his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

The only way to make it more obvious that the two base theory is true is to say something like "I can access SSG power when I want to!"

He was holding back period. Besides, Goku did noting in his Super Saiyan 2 form when Trunks was attacking him and he just one-shot Trunks as a Super Saiyan 3. So of course Goku looks stronger fighting Black since he's actually putting some effort into. It's a common thing in Dragon Ball, no two base theory necessary, especially when one said such a thing.

And no visual cue, other than fans seeing what they want to see.

Z Fighters can sense when ki is being suppressed. Vegeta could tell that Hit was hiding most of his power. So Trunks would have been able to sense it too. But he couldn't. Trunks didn't notice that they were hiding their power. Therefore, Goku wasn't holding back (he was holding back his SSG power though) and therefore, the one base theory is wrong.

The two base theory was basically stated this ep. I don't know why you hate the theory so much lol. Trunks and Piccolo's insane power boosts have not been explained either.

[ssbgoku]

I have just watched the latest episode of dragon ball super.

It seems Black is very simillair to goku in approaching enemy with constatnly growing in power to have a challenge insted of going all out from the very begining. Unless it was his stratetgy and smartness as he get the biggest gain in power as he fight with equal opponent, then he would be tricky opponent and hard to deal with if someone toys around with him as goku.

Trunks statement about black growing in strength/power as battle advances is just play of words which in combination with latest episode hints/implies more that black is just keep releasing more and more energy while getting less and less supressed. Vegeta seems to confirm that calling goku's being slow starter as bad habbit. Also it seems since black began to have issue with his ring of time(his time was running out in this timeline) he began to getting weaker and having harder time..., so:

base goku/vegeta 100%~goku black 100% >= ss3 goku > supressed goku's black >= ss2 goku 100% > more supressed goku black/loosing time > supressed ss2 goku = heavily supressed goku's black > supressed base goku going all out ~ heavily supressed goku black with playing around.

Two base theory is not bad, but I am more towards supression theory as vegeta's statement seems to just prove it and to be honest it was always this case in dbz.

[Chiki]

Two base theory and suppression theory are the same. Two base theory says that Goku and Vegeta suppress their power in Base.

[ekrolo2]

Is this the first episode of Super in a while where shit hasn't been flipped over PL stuff?

[Chiki]

Is this the first episode of Super in a while where shit hasn't been flipped over PL stuff?

Well it was outright stated that Goku and Vegeta are majorly suppressing their ki, even in SSJ2 and SSJ3, meaning Trunks is no where near SSJ3 Gotenks level. But I guess some stubborn folks will keep repeating that he is just because they want to be right. "Vegeta is just bullshitting, they're not holding back" or something like that.

[ekrolo2]

Is this the first episode of Super in a while where shit hasn't been flipped over PL stuff?

Well it was outright stated that Goku and Vegeta are majorly suppressing their ki, even in SSJ2 and SSJ3, meaning Trunks is no where near SSJ3 Gotenks level. But I guess some stubborn folks will keep repeating that he is just because they want to be right. "Vegeta is just bullshitting, they're not holding back" or something like that.

I just find putting SS2 and 3 into this really pointless. If Cell can suppress his power to fight evenly with Goku, then Goku in his base form, assuming it is as strong as the anime is making it to be, could've just done the same with Trunks and Black. It's just another fine example of needlessly overcomplicating.

[Chiki]

Is this the first episode of Super in a while where shit hasn't been flipped over PL stuff?

Well it was outright stated that Goku and Vegeta are majorly suppressing their ki, even in SSJ2 and SSJ3, meaning Trunks is no where near SSJ3 Gotenks level. But I guess some stubborn folks will keep repeating that he is just because they want to be right. "Vegeta is just bullshitting, they're not holding back" or something like that.

I just find putting SS2 and 3 into this really pointless. If Cell can suppress his power to fight evenly with Goku, then Goku in his base form, assuming it is as strong as the anime is making it to be, could've just done the same with Trunks and Black. It's just another fine example of needlessly overcomplicating.

It makes sense imo since Trunks unlocked SS2 and it seems Black is around that level. SS-without SSG power Goku would be too weak for that and Base-with-SSG Goku would be too strong. SS2/SS3-without SSG Goku would be just right.

Unless Black gets an incredible power boost though I'm really disappointed by how little tension this arc has.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

so the correct power chain when nonsensical theories like the "2 base theory" arent considered would be:

super saiyan blue goku>full power black>=ssj3 goku>black(holding back)>=ssj2 goku>=ssj2 trunks>>>>>>base goku>=base trunks

[Doctor.]

Unless Black gets an incredible power boost though I'm really disappointed by how little tension this arc has.

He's obviously getting a power boost. A villain starting off weak and gaining power is actually good writing. Sort of like Cell.

[ekrolo2]

Unless Black gets an incredible power boost though I'm really disappointed by how little tension this arc has.

Too strong? He can suppress his power! They even made a gag out of it when he held back during the episode Krillin asks Goku to punch him in the face. All they needed to do was write Trunks going SS2 first then have Goku match his power and increase it until he gets to Black's aproximate power.

[Chiki]

Unless Black gets an incredible power boost though I'm really disappointed by how little tension this arc has.

He's obviously getting a power boost. A villain starting off weak and gaining power is actually good writing. Sort of like Cell.

The only way he could reach that level is if SSB Goku played around with him to make him stronger on purpose. It'd be far more irresponsible than when he and Majin Vegeta had a fight which led to Buu's resurrection. Completely irresponsible and terrible writing imo. Hopefully Toriyama can think of something better than that.

[ekrolo2]

Unless Black gets an incredible power boost though I'm really disappointed by how little tension this arc has.

He's obviously getting a power boost. A villain starting off weak and gaining power is actually good writing. Sort of like Cell.

The only way he could reach that level is if SSB Goku played around with him to make him stronger on purpose. It'd be far more irresponsible than when he and Majin Vegeta had a fight which led to Buu's resurrection. Completely irresponsible and terrible writing imo. Hopefully Toriyama can think of something better than that.

No different than Goku intentionally setting everyone up to potentially die in an easily avoidable apocalypse from the Android arc. Or how he spares Freeza and is willing to let him go so he can come back stronger and better to potentially kill everyone again. Goku is a grade A cunt, this should not surprise anyone.

[LightBing]

Maybe Black can escape death a bunch of times, at the hand of different characters to power up significantly. He also absorbs "fighting styles", he referred to this as "SSJ Goku fighting style", maybe he can get transformations this way.

Black certainly seems interesting, I'm so happy he's isn't even close to "God Tier" without any decent explanation.

[Chiki]

Black could've been SSG tier or above and it could've been explained with Zamasu's involvement. But now it just feels like there's no tension.

Just watched the English sub. Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power in SSJ2 or 3, basically confirming the two base theory. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power all this time. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

Unfortunately if the two base theory is true it's possible that Black won't ever reach SSG or SSB level. It's said in the episode that Black only grows a little stronger every battle. He'd have to have thousands of battles with Goku to become SSB level. How the heck is that going to happen in this one arc?

[Bullza]

Black could've been SSG tier or above

He is SSJG tier or above though. Super Saiyan Goku was only supposed to be a tad weaker than SSJG and with all the training he's done since then he may have surpassed it.

SSJ2 is stronger than that, SSJ3 is stronger than that and Black is stronger than that so he's well above SSJG tier just not SSJB tier yet.