Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Again none of this makes sense in the context of what we were told about Ki leaking, God Ki, SSB being more efficient, etc. like the anime proposes a whole lot of points about the forms and which is better where and what Ki is in use and when it can be sense. The point is most of it contradicts itself when you start randomly combining things like SSB xKK or having he base now be go level.

Let's say SSJ1 is now equal to his God form, what would be the advantage of going SSJ3 vs SSB? We don't even know if SSB is that much more powerful than SSJ3 at this point? Honestly for all we know SSJ3 could be more powerful for all we know but less efficient. The problem is none of this is explained or shown.

I don't see the contradiction. The reason why Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and the Kaio-Ken works is because they counter-balance each other. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan keeps energy in, while Kaio-Ken leaks energy, which is why it originally was only used in small bursts. By combining them, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan stabilizes the Kaio-Ken. It is still dangerous, but it can be done since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is calm and has great energy control. Think of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as a fireplace used to contain a fire that would normally burn your house down.

And there is no such thing as 'god level'. King Kai is a god and he's weaker than Nappa. Kami was technically a god. God level doesn't mean equal to Beerus. Also, god energy isn't necessary to become stronger since we saw Golden Freeza beat up on Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and he just had regular old ki.

We already know the advantages of Goku using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan over Super Saiyan 3. As a Super Saiyan 3, Goku got a major power up, but it rapidly drained his strength and Toriyama called it inefficient. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is calm and has great energy control making it both powerful and practical, something Super Saiyan 3 is not. It's the same reason why Goku chose to master Super Saiyan over using the energy draining Ultra Super Saiyan form, despite it being overall more powerful.

[TheMikado]

The reason why Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and the Kaio-Ken works is because they counter-balance each other. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan keeps energy in, while Kaio-Ken leaks energy, which is why it originally was only used in small bursts. By combining them, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan stabilizes the Kaio-Ken.

Where in the world does it say this!! Like are we just making stuff up or is there some other source I don't know of. I've never heard of KK counter balancing SSB by leaking Ki.

As far as the SSJ2/3 vs SSB stuff if SSB is both more energy efficient AND more powerful it makes no sense to fight in SSJ2 form. That's like saying they should fight in SSJ grade 2/3 after unlocking SSJ2. It makes Zero sense to do that. I'm failing to see why anyone would fight in a lesser form if SSB is that much more powerful and efficient. If it's to be excited about stretching the limits of his lower form than Goku should have been just a excited to fight Botamo and Frost in base.

[HeroR]

The reason why Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and the Kaio-Ken works is because they counter-balance each other. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan keeps energy in, while Kaio-Ken leaks energy, which is why it originally was only used in small bursts. By combining them, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan stabilizes the Kaio-Ken.

Where in the world does it say this!! Like are we just making stuff up or is there some other source I don't know of. I've never heard of KK counter balancing SSB by leaking Ki.

As far as the SSJ2/3 vs SSB stuff if SSB is both more energy efficient AND more powerful it makes no sense to fight in SSJ2 form. That's like saying they should fight in SSJ grade 2/3 after unlocking SSJ2. It makes Zero sense to do that. I'm failing to see why anyone would fight in a lesser form if SSB is that much more powerful and efficient. If it's to be excited about stretching the limits of his lower form than Goku should have been just a excited to fight Botamo and Frost in base.

Common sense and it is heavily implied.

The reason why Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken can't be combine is because Super Saiyan is stressful no matter how much you master it is, something Goku notes. Super Saiyan is also a rage fueled transformation and all its extensions of Super Saiyan (2 and 3) are even worse when it comes to energy leakage. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is specifically called a calm transformation that has great ki control (doesn't leak energy). The Kaio-Ken is a burst attack that raises a person's ki past its natural limit and is extremely stressful and leaks a lot of energy, hence why it can kill you or wreck your body beyond repair if you're not careful. So, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan that keep energy in and controlled, can contain and counter-balance the the wild energy released by Kaio-Ken, creating a somewhat stable form that isn't possible with Super Saiyan, since Super Saiyan has a similar problem to the Kaio-Ken, just not as dramatic.

Goku was using that form to test Black, nothing more. He didn't want to use his full power right a way since he didn't know what Black could do. He also knew that Black was stronger than his regular Super Saiyan form since Trunks put him at least around Super Saiyan 3 at full power. So, Goku split the difference, he used Super Saiyan 2. Not as energy efficient as Super Saiyan, but it gives him enough power to properly test Black without getting killed. If he could get away with it, Goku probably would have used his base Super Saiyan form against Black to save energy.

Also, the Grade example is not very good. Ultra Super Saiyan is only as strong as Super Saiyan 2 at its best, so there is literally no benefit for Goku or anyone else to used it after getting Super Saiyan 2. Especially since those Grades are even more energy consuming that than Super Saiyan 2.

With Botamo and Frost, he was excited to fight them in his base, so I don't see your point.

[TheMikado]

^ umm you do understand that's NOT common sense or implied. That counterbalancing theory is pure fanfiction.

Furthermore if he wanted to test Black why not power up to his most energy efficient and powerful form and then surpressed it like you claim he did with trunks. It wouldn't make sense to waste all that energy on testing and not have it if he needed it when he could power up to SSB and then suppress his higher level forms like you claim he did with trunks and get even more energy savings for later if he needed it.

[HeroR]

^ umm you do understand that's NOT common sense or implied. That counterbalancing theory is pure fanfiction.

Furthermore if he wanted to test Black why not power up to his most energy efficient and powerful form and then surpressed it like you claim he did with trunks. It wouldn't make sense to waste all that energy on testing and not have it if he needed it when he could power up to SSB and then suppress his higher level forms like you claim he did with trunks and get even more energy savings for later if he needed it.

I explained my point, rather you agree or disagree is another matter, especially since that is what the show strongly implies. Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, impossible because Super Saiyan is stressful and the Kaio-Ken already hard on the body, and would kill a person. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, possible because that form is calm and has great energy control, which helps control the stress of using the Kaio-Ken.

He was suppressed against Trunks because he literally didn't do anything. Goku just blocked Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2, didn't move, and easily caught his fists. He expanded no energy 'sparring' with Trunks. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would have used energy because Goku would actually have to put effort instead of just floating there and blocking. It's the same reason why he didn't go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Hit and then lowered it.

[TheMikado]

^ umm you do understand that's NOT common sense or implied. That counterbalancing theory is pure fanfiction.

Furthermore if he wanted to test Black why not power up to his most energy efficient and powerful form and then surpressed it like you claim he did with trunks. It wouldn't make sense to waste all that energy on testing and not have it if he needed it when he could power up to SSB and then suppress his higher level forms like you claim he did with trunks and get even more energy savings for later if he needed it.

I explained my point, rather you agree or disagree is another matter, especially since that is what the show strongly implies. Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, impossible because Super Saiyan is stressful and the Kaio-Ken already hard on the body, and would kill a person. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, possible because that form is calm and has great energy control, which helps control the stress of using the Kaio-Ken.

He was suppressed against Trunks because he literally didn't do anything. Goku just blocked Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2, didn't move, and easily caught his fists. He expanded no energy 'sparring' with Trunks. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would have used energy because Goku would actually have to put effort instead of just floating there and blocking. It's the same reason why he didn't go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Hit and then lowered it.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself. You're saying SSJ is stressful on the body but SSB is calm.
So in the scenario I'm proposing below which would expend LESS energy. I.e. More efficient?

1) Going SSJ2 and then surpressing
2) Going SSB and then surpressing

[HeroR]

^ umm you do understand that's NOT common sense or implied. That counterbalancing theory is pure fanfiction.

Furthermore if he wanted to test Black why not power up to his most energy efficient and powerful form and then surpressed it like you claim he did with trunks. It wouldn't make sense to waste all that energy on testing and not have it if he needed it when he could power up to SSB and then suppress his higher level forms like you claim he did with trunks and get even more energy savings for later if he needed it.

I explained my point, rather you agree or disagree is another matter, especially since that is what the show strongly implies. Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, impossible because Super Saiyan is stressful and the Kaio-Ken already hard on the body, and would kill a person. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken, possible because that form is calm and has great energy control, which helps control the stress of using the Kaio-Ken.

He was suppressed against Trunks because he literally didn't do anything. Goku just blocked Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2, didn't move, and easily caught his fists. He expanded no energy 'sparring' with Trunks. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would have used energy because Goku would actually have to put effort instead of just floating there and blocking. It's the same reason why he didn't go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Hit and then lowered it.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself. You're saying SSJ is stressful on the body but SSB is calm.
So in the scenario I'm proposing below which would expend LESS energy. I.e. More efficient?

1) Going SSJ2 and then surpressing
2) Going SSB and then surpressing

Goku literally did nothing against Trunks. I barely called that suppressing, just good old fashion holding back. Suppressing would be Goku fighting Cell before powering up.

[TheMikado]

Goku literally did nothing against Trunks. I barely called that suppressing, just good old fashion holding back. Suppressing would be Goku fighting Cell before powering up.

Wait what?? I didn't realize there was a difference. Is that a real thing or something we're making up to support our own view points? Anyway my question is which is better to use? A suppressed SSB or a surpressed SSJ2/3. More importantly which one is better to use, a surpressed SSB or a full power SSJ2/3?

I'm just trying to figure out why you would use those and why and I'm what scenarios. In Super the SSB form has no downsides so why not just always use that at varying levels of holding back Or suppression or whatever and keep your stamina and energy. They way Super is written it makes no sense to fight an enemy in anything other than base and SSB.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

[HeroR]

Goku literally did nothing against Trunks. I barely called that suppressing, just good old fashion holding back. Suppressing would be Goku fighting Cell before powering up.

Wait what?? I didn't realize there was a difference. Is that a real thing or something we're making up to support our own view points? Anyway my question is which is better to use? A suppressed SSB or a surpressed SSJ2/3. More importantly which one is better to use, a surpressed SSB or a full power SSJ2/3?

I'm just trying to figure out why you would use those and why and I'm what scenarios. In Super the SSB form has no downsides so why not just always use that at varying levels of holding back Or suppression or whatever and keep your stamina and energy. They way Super is written it makes no sense to fight an enemy in anything other than base and SSB.

Are we talking about against Trunks or Black? Trunks can't feel God ki, so he didn't transformed into his highest form. He didn't use it against Black because he was testing him and he was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. So he used Super Saiyan 2. If you're asking if going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and then holding back would have saved more energy, maybe, but then Goku would have shown Black his trump card. Goku and Vegeta did everything they could to hide that form even if it meant struggling. Also, Goku and Vegeta don't control levels in their normal Super Saiyan form. Only Goku's rested Super Saiyan comes close. It isn't like Freeza 50 to 100% full power.

And is holding back suppressing? Yes, but Goku held back to the point with Trunks to the point that he didn't move. Super Saiyan Goku against Cell was suppressed yet fighting hard. Another example is Goku when he wearing weights.

[HeroR]

Goku literally did nothing against Trunks. I barely called that suppressing, just good old fashion holding back. Suppressing would be Goku fighting Cell before powering up.

Wait what?? I didn't realize there was a difference. Is that a real thing or something we're making up to support our own view points? Anyway my question is which is better to use? A suppressed SSB or a surpressed SSJ2/3. More importantly which one is better to use, a surpressed SSB or a full power SSJ2/3?

I'm just trying to figure out why you would use those and why and I'm what scenarios. In Super the SSB form has no downsides so why not just always use that at varying levels of holding back Or suppression or whatever and keep your stamina and energy. They way Super is written it makes no sense to fight an enemy in anything other than base and SSB.

And is holding back suppressing? Yes, but Goku held back to the point with Trunks to the point that he didn't move. Super Saiyan Goku against Cell was suppressed yet fighting hard. Another example is Goku when he wearing weights.

Are we talking about against Trunks or Black? Trunks can't feel God ki, so he didn't transformed into his highest form. He didn't use it against Black because he was testing him and he was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. So he used Super Saiyan 2. If you're asking if going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and then holding back would have saved more energy, maybe, but then Goku would have shown Black his trump card. Goku and Vegeta did everything they could to hide that form even if it meant struggling. Also, Goku and Vegeta don't control levels in their normal Super Saiyan form. Only Goku's rested Super Saiyan comes close. It isn't like Freeza 50 to 100% full power.

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Thank you for this. This is what I am thinking of, but couldn't think of the words.

[TheMikado]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Ok in that context I agree but if I'm suppressing my power levels can I hit with full power while surpressed?

Either way it doesn't really answer my question on if the SSB form would be best to use as default and hold back/surpress as necessary.

[TheMikado]

Are we talking about against Trunks or Black? Trunks can't feel God ki, so he didn't transformed into his highest form. He didn't use it against Black because he was testing him and he was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. So he used Super Saiyan 2. If you're asking if going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and then holding back would have saved more energy, maybe, but then Goku would have shown Black his trump card. Goku and Vegeta did everything they could to hide that form even if it meant struggling. Also, Goku and Vegeta don't control levels in their normal Super Saiyan form. Only Goku's rested Super Saiyan comes close. It isn't like Freeza 50 to 100% full power.

I'm talking about both, were saying that Goku held back in SS2/3 forms with Trunks which makes sense.
But then we are talking about not showing their Trump card to black which doesn't make sense unless they automatically assumed he can sense God Ki and even then why not just surpress it/hold back like against Trunks. I'm fairly certain they do have control of their power levels in SSJ forms as evident by them being able to hold back. We certainly know that SSJ power levels can fluctuate even with in the same form.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any real logical reason to use anything other than as base and SSB. Especially when they can just hold back.

[Bullza]

If you're asking questions on how Base Goku survived Beerus you could also ask how Bulma survived a smack from Beerus that sent he flying across the room when Beerus finger flicked SSJ3 Goku into a crater...

No I was referring to the series with my comment. In the episode where Goku and Vegeta were changing his bed sheets they both got smacked by Beerus when he was asleep, Vegeta said that he doesn't hold back when he's asleep.

Towards the end of the episode Beerus fired a blast from his mouth that hit the two of them and they later said that it was an unrestrained attack but it didn't even knock them out.

So Beerus at 10% can poke angry SSJ2 Vegeta in the head and render him unconscious but a unrestrained blast doesnt knock Base Vegeta out nor does the kick to the face.

With that in mind it doesn't make sense to me that Super Saiyan could be 50x more powerful yet they can be hurt severly by restrained attacks. If they're less than 1% as strong as Beerus then they should have been vaporised and Beerus shouldn't have had to use 10% against a SSJ2 Vegeta who should be even weaker than that.

[Chiki]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Nope, they're synonyms. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hold%20back

Holding back can be understood as suppression to just about every native English speaker except you (because you invented a distinction that does not exist).

In before you argue with the thesaurus that they're not synonyms. LOL

[GodKaio-Ken]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Nope, they're synonyms. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hold%20back

Holding back can be understood as suppression to just about every native English speaker except you (because you invented a distinction that does not exist).

In before you argue with the thesaurus that they're not synonyms. LOL

In a general sense sure...in a fighting sense what he said made perfect sense. There is just no better word to describe what he is saying IMO.

[Draconic]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Nope, they're synonyms. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hold%20back

Holding back can be understood as suppression to just about every native English speaker except you (because you invented a distinction that does not exist).

In before you argue with the thesaurus that they're not synonyms. LOL

You do know that there are such things as contextual synonyms right?

[HeroR]

Are we talking about against Trunks or Black? Trunks can't feel God ki, so he didn't transformed into his highest form. He didn't use it against Black because he was testing him and he was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. So he used Super Saiyan 2. If you're asking if going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and then holding back would have saved more energy, maybe, but then Goku would have shown Black his trump card. Goku and Vegeta did everything they could to hide that form even if it meant struggling. Also, Goku and Vegeta don't control levels in their normal Super Saiyan form. Only Goku's rested Super Saiyan comes close. It isn't like Freeza 50 to 100% full power.

I'm talking about both, were saying that Goku held back in SS2/3 forms with Trunks which makes sense.
But then we are talking about not showing their Trump card to black which doesn't make sense unless they automatically assumed he can sense God Ki and even then why not just surpress it/hold back like against Trunks. I'm fairly certain they do have control of their power levels in SSJ forms as evident by them being able to hold back. We certainly know that SSJ power levels can fluctuate even with in the same form.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any real logical reason to use anything other than as base and SSB. Especially when they can just hold back.

What does Black knowing or not knowing about god ki have to do with Goku holding back? And Black probably can sense god ki if he's up to the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku whose base is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku's trump card (outside the Kaio-Ken). He didn't want to show it to Black and reveal any of his true power until Black shows all his cards first. He knows Black is at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3, so using just Super Saiyan wouldn't be so good. So, he went to Super Saiyan 2.

And they don't control their Super Saiyan levels like Frieza's controls his power using percents. The only time we see Goku suppressed as a Super Saiyan is when he's fighting Cell. Everywhere else, he is using his full power or closed to his full power, but is holding back. Like his fight with Frost as a Super Saiyan. Goku knocked him around, but Frost was still standing, while Vegeta didn't hold back and knocked Frost out of the ring and broke Vados' barrier.

[Chiki]

Suppression is hiding your power, while holding-back is limiting your effort. Guys that can't suppress their power can hold-back. Both are completely different.

Nope, they're synonyms. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hold%20back

Holding back can be understood as suppression to just about every native English speaker except you (because you invented a distinction that does not exist).

In before you argue with the thesaurus that they're not synonyms. LOL

In a general sense sure...in a fighting sense what he said made perfect sense. There is just no better word to describe what he is saying IMO.

You do know that there are such things as contextual synonyms right?

I do research in contextual semantics as a scientist. The only way words can actually have different meanings in different contexts is if those meanings are actually accepted by a significant community. If you went outside this thread and tried to use the words suppress and hold back in different ways without being completely clear about it, no one would have any idea what you're talking about. No one would be able to tell the difference unless you explained it beforehand.

If you fail this test (using hold back and suppress in different ways) then this means there is no difference between the two words.

I'm 100% sure that you two would have also failed that test until Turlast explained the difference. He just made it up on the spot and you guys accepted it because it sounded nice, but before he made that post you would have failed the test.

[LowRyder2005]

Contextual semantics aside, one proper way to describe both concepts would have been "suppressing ki" and "keeping his ki at maximum output but pulling his punches" (or rather "not fighting at all", in this case).