Deus Ex Machina

[precita]

The rules of the time chamber being changed. Originally you could only go in there twice in your entire lifetime.

Now all of a sudden you can magically go in there and train for as many years as you want. What a load of crap. Also Buu destroyed the entrance to the time chamber from the inside so that place should be sealed off in another dimension.

Crap.

[Footlong Shoe]

My take on this whole car business:

It's all characterization. I'll first follow Snow_Lilies in saying that the point was precisely to give Ten an illegitimate -- one might even say pyrrhic -- victory, thoroughly humbling him. At the same time, while I'll agree that the haphazard nature of it is quite rightly a cause for frustration for many readers, myself included, I don't doubt for a second that this was the intended effect. By design, the reader's frustrated expectations over having their hero's success teased then unfairly yanked away in this last-moment reversal of sheer luck serve by an effect of pointed contrast to throw Goku's own carefree response afterwards into character-defining relief. We first feel cheated on his behalf, but Goku of course remains as cheerful as ever, reassuring us.

This is what I was thinking. Sure it feels like a cheap way to have Goku lose, but that was the point. The reader is certain Goku will get the victory, but then it's snatched out from under him.

[ABED]

I wouldn't call the car hitting Goku a feud ex machina because the story naturally heads towards that conclusions when they're both freefalling from the air, especially if they're flying towards a crowded city. One should expect some level of traffic to pop up, no?

It's lazy writing because it's completely random and disconnected from anything, be it story or character or theme.

It's all characterization. I'll first follow Snow_Lilies in saying that the point was precisely to give Ten an illegitimate -- one might even say pyrrhic -- victory, thoroughly humbling him.

That victory didn't humble him. His change had already occurred.

[floofychan333]

Future Trunks. Enough said.

[ABED]

Future Trunks. Enough said.

No, we're going to need more. How is that deus ex machina?

[90sDBZ]

I'm just going to put this out there. I've always loved the part where Goku gets hits by that truck. I felt it was the perfect end to a long and tough fight, and just the fact that the guy survives falling from the sky and a head on collision with a goddamn truck. That's so freakin' awesome. In a way it felt similar to him losing to Jackie Chun due to having a smaller body and being unable to quite finish his sentence when he stood up. He came so close to being Champion that time and his battle with Tien was even closer. The suspense leading up to the end of the fight was really well done and kept you guessing who would win right up to the very end. I think it's realistic how sometimes shit just happens and you run out of luck. The way Toriyama handled that whole final sequence from Goku dodging the Tri-Beam to everything that happens in the sky made for one of the most imaginative fights in the series. Great stuff.

[ABED]

I'm just going to put this out there. I've always loved the part where Goku gets hits by that truck. I felt it was the perfect end to a long and tough fight, and just the fact that the guy survives falling from the sky and a head on collision with a goddamn truck. That's so freakin' awesome. In a way it felt similar to him losing to Jackie Chun due to having a smaller body and being unable to quite finish his sentence when he stood up. He came so close to being Champion that time and his battle with Tien was even closer. The suspense leading up to the end of the fight was really well done and kept you guessing who would win right up to the very end. I think it's realistic how sometimes shit just happens and you run out of luck. The way Toriyama handled that whole final sequence from Goku dodging the Tri-Beam to everything that happens in the sky made for one of the most imaginative fights in the series. Great stuff.

Except Losing to Chun because of his smaller body wasn't chance. It was strategy. Lots of stuff happens in real life that's not good in a story. The fight is great RIGHT up until that finish.

[90sDBZ]

I felt like Goku losing that fight did the story good though. It showed Tien's honourable side when he offered Goku half the prize money, and it made his later victory at the 23rd Tournament feel all the more special. The fact that he tried and failed to be Champion twice before and finally succeeded on the 3rd try made it feel all the more well deserved. And it's also worth pointing out that luck always played a part in the Tournaments, like how Goku would have lost to Chun a lot earlier had he not looked up at the moon, or had the announcer counted as soon as he was supposed to.

[ABED]

I felt like Goku losing that fight did the story good though. It showed Tien's honourable side when he offered Goku half the prize money, and it made his later victory at the 23rd Tournament feel all the more special. The fact that he tried and failed to be Champion twice before and finally succeeded on the 3rd try made it feel all the more well deserved. And it's also worth pointing out that luck always played a part in the Tournaments, like how Goku would have lost to Chun a lot earlier had he not looked up at the moon, or had the announcer counted as soon as he was supposed to.

I'm in favor of him losing as well, just not losing by accident. Tenshinhan had already shown honor numerous times during the match, including warning Goku to dodge the Kikoho. Goku lost to Jackie Chun anyway, but none of those things you mentioned are chance, those are choices. Chance would be someone slipping on a loose piece of rubble and falling out of the ring.

[floofychan333]

Future Trunks. Enough said.

No, we're going to need more. How is that deus ex machina?

He showed up to finish Frieza and King Cold and came back just in time to help fight the androids and Cell. If it weren't for Trunks arriving to save the day, I'm sure half the fighters would've died during the Cell arc.

[ABED]

Future Trunks. Enough said.

No, we're going to need more. How is that deus ex machina?

He showed up to finish Frieza and King Cold and came back just in time to help fight the androids and Cell. If it weren't for Trunks arriving to save the day, I'm sure half the fighters would've died during the Cell arc.

That's not deus ex machina. He showed up because he knew when it would happen.

[ryou766]

If it weren't for Trunks arriving to save the day, I'm sure half the fighters would've died during the Cell arc.

Actually, Goku mentioned that he could've arrived sooner via Instantaneous Movement. He was the one to kill Cold and Freeza in Trunks' timeline, after all.

[apex_pretador]

This may not count, but this is something that has always made no sense to me: In the Majin Boo arc, when Goku, Vegeta, Majin Boo are fighting Kid Boo and Kibito Kai teleport Dende and Old Kai to New Namek to wish for Earth to be restored after Kid Boo completely obliterated it and then to resurrect everyone who had died since the World Martial Arts Tournament when Babidi and his forces first attacked, except the evil ones, Moori and the other Namekians know of the situation that is going on, and have already gathered the Dragon Balls for the situation. How the hell did they know what was going on on Supreme Kai's planet with the Z-Fighters talking on Kid Boo or what was going on with Majin Boo and the rest of the bullshit that happened on Earth when Babidi and his cronies arrived?

They sensed buuhan / buutenks & vegetto

[Lord Beerus]

This may not count, but this is something that has always made no sense to me: In the Majin Boo arc, when Goku, Vegeta, Majin Boo are fighting Kid Boo and Kibito Kai teleport Dende and Old Kai to New Namek to wish for Earth to be restored after Kid Boo completely obliterated it and then to resurrect everyone who had died since the World Martial Arts Tournament when Babidi and his forces first attacked, except the evil ones, Moori and the other Namekians know of the situation that is going on, and have already gathered the Dragon Balls for the situation. How the hell did they know what was going on on Supreme Kai's planet with the Z-Fighters talking on Kid Boo or what was going on with Majin Boo and the rest of the bullshit that happened on Earth when Babidi and his cronies arrived?

They sensed buuhan / buutenks & vegetto

I don't buy that at all. How would they even know who Boohan, Bootenks and Vegetto are? And how would they deduce that the immense power levels they sensed were a possible threat (Boohan and Bootenks) and were not (Vegetto)?

[Daisetsu]

Don't know if it's in the manga, but in the anime Moori said that he (and the rest of Namekians?) could sense an evil presence on Earth during the Cell arc. When Goku came to get a new Kami, his suspicions were confirmed. It can only be assumed that he sensed the same thing with Buu and just took precautions and gathered the dragon balls.

[apex_pretador]

This may not count, but this is something that has always made no sense to me: In the Majin Boo arc, when Goku, Vegeta, Majin Boo are fighting Kid Boo and Kibito Kai teleport Dende and Old Kai to New Namek to wish for Earth to be restored after Kid Boo completely obliterated it and then to resurrect everyone who had died since the World Martial Arts Tournament when Babidi and his forces first attacked, except the evil ones, Moori and the other Namekians know of the situation that is going on, and have already gathered the Dragon Balls for the situation. How the hell did they know what was going on on Supreme Kai's planet with the Z-Fighters talking on Kid Boo or what was going on with Majin Boo and the rest of the bullshit that happened on Earth when Babidi and his cronies arrived?

They sensed buuhan / buutenks & vegetto

I don't buy that at all. How would they even know who Boohan, Bootenks and Vegetto are? And how would they deduce that the immense power levels they sensed were a possible threat (Boohan and Bootenks) and were not (Vegetto)?

They don't need to know them, just that something (possibly dangerous) is going on and they needed to be prepared for any danger in advance because of freeza time

Plus won't buutenks & buuhan have evil ki?

[coola]

- "True" Holy Water from Korin - It was such cheap power up i think it would be better, if Goku had to train actually train for several years to fight with Piccolo, have him train with God, whatever, just...not that

[ABED]

- "True" Holy Water from Korin - It was such cheap power up i think it would be better, if Goku had to train actually train for several years to fight with Piccolo, have him train with God, whatever, just...not that

I was thinking the same thing, though I don't think he needed to have to train for years as that puts a crimp on the suspense. I think a simple remedy like having established it the first time he met Karin would've sufficed.

[TheZFighter]

If you fall into a road where cars regularly pass, there is a good chance of you being hit by a car.

[ABED]

If you fall into a road where cars regularly pass, there is a good chance of you being hit by a car.

People slip in real life all the time, but it would be a weak way to end a fight if someone accidentally fell out of the ring. If one of them is going to lose by hitting the car, it's better writing to have it be intentional instead of happenstance.