Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

If you're asking questions on how Base Goku survived Beerus you could also ask how Bulma survived a smack from Beerus that sent he flying across the room when Beerus finger flicked SSJ3 Goku into a crater...

No I was referring to the series with my comment. In the episode where Goku and Vegeta were changing his bed sheets they both got smacked by Beerus when he was asleep, Vegeta said that he doesn't hold back when he's asleep.

Towards the end of the episode Beerus fired a blast from his mouth that hit the two of them and they later said that it was an unrestrained attack but it didn't even knock them out.

So Beerus at 10% can poke angry SSJ2 Vegeta in the head and render him unconscious but a unrestrained blast doesnt knock Base Vegeta out nor does the kick to the face.

With that in mind it doesn't make sense to me that Super Saiyan could be 50x more powerful yet they can be hurt severly by restrained attacks. If they're less than 1% as strong as Beerus then they should have been vaporised and Beerus shouldn't have had to use 10% against a SSJ2 Vegeta who should be even weaker than that.

Umm that's really a gag feat you can't legitimately use that besides which isn't even accounting for them training with Whis. There really is no evidence that base and SSJ are close in power because in that since the whole Frost and Goku fight didn't make sense. Especially if the Frist forms had the same multiplier as Frieza's.

[Hugo Boss]

For the sake of organization, I will try to respond every point you brought up in a single text. First, I think my point was about some tidbit from Daizenshuu which compares Halflings and Pure-blooded Saiyans,

How old is this thing you keep mentioning? is it pre CELL when Gohan was supposed to be the hero of earth? Thats easily explained for plot reasons, they are giving him props to become the hero with perks and what not. Has it ever materialized after?
Noticed how now that Goku is set to be the hero of the show he get the same mentions about his potential, and perks in battle that only he possess, like the ability to absorb the SSG transformation into himself while fighting beerus

I didn't suggest there is a rule to how their power growth works

But isn't claiming things like Hybrid grow faster by rule claiming pure saiyans grow slower, and why would you need hybrids to be better to justify trunks getting strong in 11 years time

Gohan at 5 had a powerlevel of over 10,000, a figure almost none of Pure-blooded Saiyans could reach, with a few exceptions

I already conceded the advantage of being born with higher base power, you also have to take into account my first point debating you: Context is key, the power of new characters will depend of hen they are introduced how strong are the enemies at the time. Vegeta was born with much more power than goku and was said to have surpassed king vegeta at early age. That didnt stop Goku from surpassing vegeta

In Cell Arc, Gohan surpassed Goku and Vegeta despite starting RoSaT's training behind them.

In Cell Arch Gohan in Akira Toriyamas mind at the time was supposed to be Gokus successor are the hero of earth so it only makes sense to make him the strongest, how do you make the hero not the strongest? He then later his mind about this
Having said that:
Trunks and Vegeta got the same results (same realm of powers) while training under the same circumstances. See how the hybrid vs pure does not work out in this case
Day one of time room goku intended for Gohan to surpass him as per the plot requirements, initially he focused on getting Gohan SS1 to his own training detriment later offset by having a strong sparring partner

In Boo Arc, Goten and Trunks were far stronger than their parents were when they fought the cyborgs and as Gotenks they surpassed Goku and Vegeta. Gohan surpassed Gotenks.

And as fused Goku and Vegeta surpassed far and above both of them, bringing fusion into the argument makes no sense
As i said Being introduced with a impressive power level for the time does not determine the characters potential, them being that strong at early age is only up to the context of being introduced in a saga wih greater power scales than before, I'm sure you see this.

Gohan also achieved this power boost through the elders ritual not his own mean, the elder claim his special power was to make ANYONE insaely powerful, he could even make a weakling very strong, there is nothing to imply Goku and vegeta wold not get terrific results out of this too

Third, Trunks turned SS faster than his future self because he played fights with Goten or something of that effect. Bulma also implied Vegeta wanted Trunks to surpass Gohan, if I'm not mistaken.

And kid future trunks didn't? forget the great threat when he was born? he was born at the brink of collapse?He probably was trained by Gohan when he still was on diapers. Future Trunks had even more motivation to start training at an early age other than fun
Bolded never happened this is just an assumption on your part

Daizenshuu does make a point about tailless hybrids having their particularities

Coulnt this ne interpreted as a way to prop the majin saga at the time? As far of the people were concerned when DBZ was airing those kids were all the hope earth had left and Goku refused to meddle with things. Akiras later comment on the matter also contradicts this or at the least makes no allusion to this supposed advantage of being born tailless

Seventh, I never suggested Future Trunks' current strength must have an explanation, I just tried to figure out a way of explaining it, because I don't think "plot convenience" is a creative response, it's too obvious. Finally, I think the last episode implies Black's current strength is not leagues ahead of Future Trunks, despite existing a clear difference in their power.

Reaching SS2 and then more in 11 years is a fair game, i would expect no less of trunks. Especially considering he had black as a sparring partner for a year

Goku's current level is fruit of his fondness for battle

if that was just it then would not reach the heights he did, he wouldnt have the latent ability and talent he shows in battles and he wouldnt have being able to absorb the god essence, after the transformation was done he would have being done for if he didnt have that Gokuness that carachterize him in battle
So in essence
In the same context and circumstances in the same saga, saiyans and hybirds grow at the same pace, this is displayed in Saiyan saga,Namek, Andriod, Cell*, majin and now Super. If being born/being introduced with higher meant anything then you would have them outpace on the same time period. This is why i think the hybrid theroy is an old concept that holds no weight anymore

1. I don't know and I don't mind if you think Goku or Gohan being the main characters affect their potential, the fact is that the information exists.
2. No, you are confusing the fact the hybrids grew stronger faster with a theory I supposed invented that they will always grow faster. I never stated that. I don't need to confirm nothing to realize how strong Future Trunks became, it was a random thought I called.
3. Fair point.
4. We don't know how efficient is Future Trunks' training in relation to Vegeta's, we know Goku's method proved to be far better. For the record, I remember Future Trunks being called an amateur a couple of times.
5. Fusion was something they mastered faster than Goku and on top of that they mastered SS3 faster. Even Goku acknowledged that.
6. It's implied repeated times Gohan has become so strong because of his dormant power, the elder Kaioshin wasn't all that special.
7. Trunks having fun while fighting Goten or his future self desperately needing to become stronger doesn't mean one would grow less than the other. Having a partner with strength close to yours gives you a fair advantage, you both improve fast.
8. Sorry, I thought that happened when Gohan went to ask Bulma his disguise as Great Saiyaman.
9. Clarify that, please. What are Toriyama's words which contradict that Daizenshuu's information?
10. That's exactly my main point!
11. Okay, it wasn't just that, but Vegeta is as strong as he is now because of the same motive. Goku is a bit more special.
12. Well, I have provided examples that corroborate my point. Feel free to analyse them if you wish.

[TheMikado]

Are we talking about against Trunks or Black? Trunks can't feel God ki, so he didn't transformed into his highest form. He didn't use it against Black because he was testing him and he was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. So he used Super Saiyan 2. If you're asking if going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and then holding back would have saved more energy, maybe, but then Goku would have shown Black his trump card. Goku and Vegeta did everything they could to hide that form even if it meant struggling. Also, Goku and Vegeta don't control levels in their normal Super Saiyan form. Only Goku's rested Super Saiyan comes close. It isn't like Freeza 50 to 100% full power.

I'm talking about both, were saying that Goku held back in SS2/3 forms with Trunks which makes sense.
But then we are talking about not showing their Trump card to black which doesn't make sense unless they automatically assumed he can sense God Ki and even then why not just surpress it/hold back like against Trunks. I'm fairly certain they do have control of their power levels in SSJ forms as evident by them being able to hold back. We certainly know that SSJ power levels can fluctuate even with in the same form.

Basically there doesn't seem to be any real logical reason to use anything other than as base and SSB. Especially when they can just hold back.

What does Black knowing or not knowing about god ki have to do with Goku holding back? And Black probably can sense god ki if he's up to the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku whose base is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku's trump card (outside the Kaio-Ken). He didn't want to show it to Black and reveal any of his true power until Black shows all his cards first. He knows Black is at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3, so using just Super Saiyan wouldn't be so good. So, he went to Super Saiyan 2.

And they don't control their Super Saiyan levels like Frieza's controls his power using percents. The only time we see Goku suppressed as a Super Saiyan is when he's fighting Cell. Everywhere else, he is using his full power or closed to his full power, but is holding back. Like his fight with Frost as a Super Saiyan. Goku knocked him around, but Frost was still standing, while Vegeta didn't hold back and knocked Frost out of the ring and broke Vados' barrier.

You argument about not wanting to show all his cards is perfectly fine my point as to whether he can sense God Ki or not means that if if Goku were SSB and Black couldn't sense the power, Goku wouldn't have actually showed a thing except that he can change colors. I don't agree with the idea that because you are strong you can immediately sense God Ki. I don't remember if Golden Frieza could, But the idea that Goku couldn't "hold back" in SSB form i can't agree with.

But you answered my question which is basically, no matter how you slice it there is never any real reason to use anything besides base or SSB unless you're trying to conceal your Ki. Otherwise you would be wasting your stamina and energy.

[TheMikado]

What though? What makes you say SSJ wasn't an x50 multiplier in BoG?

The movie or the anime? It was pretty apparent it wasn't in the movie so you must mean the anime.

There was that scene where Super Saiyan Goku was struggling to hold back Beerus' attack and then he suddenly reverts back to Base form where he then punches it and destroys it. If Base form was merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan then that never should have happened.

So there shouldn't really be much difference between the two just like it wasn't in the movie either.

So I just realized what you would be saying in terms of the story.
In ROF Piccolo was well under base Goku and then ok Champa arc he's now close SSJ Goku after 4 months of Training in the woods? To put this in perspective, if SSJ Goku is now SSG levels does that mean Piccolo is up in that same realm of power too? Or are we saying that Gokus base is close to SSG because it's close to SSJ1 which would also Piccolo close to that realm? Even him being half as powerful as a SSG would be a real stretch right?

[Bullza]

Umm that's really a gag feat you can't legitimately use that besides which isn't even accounting for them training with Whis.

This was before Goku really started training with Whis. This was the same episode where he first showed up on Beerus' planet.

It was sort of a gag but it happened three times and they made a comment on him not holding back twice so it's gotta mean something.

In ROF Piccolo was well under base Goku and then ok Champa arc he's now close SSJ Goku after 4 months of Training in the woods? To put this in perspective, if SSJ Goku is now SSG levels does that mean Piccolo is up in that same realm of power too? Or are we saying that Gokus base is close to SSG because it's close to SSJ1 which would also Piccolo close to that realm? Even him being half as powerful as a SSG would be a real stretch right?

I'd personally say he was weaker than Base Goku because I can't see Piccolo beating SSJ3 Gotenks and I think Goku telling him that even he could beat him now when he was sick implied that he couldn't otherwise.

He did well against Frost when he logically shouldn't have but the anime and manga both made a point of him being a smart fighter who used the strategy of fighting defensively and on the evasive to do decently against someone they knew he had no chance against.

He was shown to be as strong as Base Gohan right before the tournament so that's where I have him. Sure Frost should have beat him instantly but he was shown to be on a certain level and they put an emphasis on why he wasn't beaten instantly.

I think that's just how were supposed to interpret it rather than assuming that Piccolo is God level now which was never emphasised.

[dbzfan7]

I'm going to ask about that theory that SSJ is now more powerful than SSJ2/3. I don't quite get how that's the case when that completely shoots simplicity in the foot. What children would understand this? It over complicates things needlessly. Dragon Ball is a simple series, and yet apparently this theory says SSJ2/3 are the new lower forms? Even the two base theory makes more sense than that.

I see it as Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJ God -> SSJB as that's you know, simple. Easy to pick up. Easy for the audience to understand. Some thing like Base<SSJ2<SSJ3<SSJ<SSJB is more convoluted and counter productive.

Base -> SSJ -> SSJB was also a very simple easy to follow progression, with the other forms not being needed anymore.

[Cabba]

Once Goku took godhood into his being, his base became much stronger, so the order is still:
Base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3

The reason i came to this conclusion was reading the Hit Vs Goku manga yesterday, he goes from base, to SS to then SSG to SSB
If SS3 was compatible with Goku would have used it against beerus as a last resort move, but he didnt

There is the akira comment i mentioned as well: He said that goku would great far greater result by focusing on his base form and boosting this power with the SS transformation (this was after BoG and before RoF), he classified SS2 and above as obsolete. Maybe them being a boost of a boost is the reason why they are not compatible with this goodhood goku acquired or this different way to handle key whatever it is that made hs base and SS form capable of holding a fight against beerus

It makes no sense for Base to be stronger than Super Saiyan forms, that's just confusing for the sake of being confusing.
Goku sparred with Trunks so that he could be compared to Black. Being that Trunks wouldn't be able to sense him as a Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan 3 is the strongest that he can be that Trunks can sense.
Goku could not have got any stronger at that point unless he turned Super Saiyan Blue. There'd have been no point in him suppressing himself because that would defeat the entire purpose of trying to find out how strong Black was.

Its not like there isnt a precedent for this, see Gohan post elders ritual base form being stronger than his SS form
The reason why is this i theorize the SS2/SS3 are not compatible with Gokus new more efficient way to handle ki

I mean we have Black a fellow confirmed to be at least SS3 level by trunks, Goku edged him out as SS. Whats more Trunks confirmed he was a little stronger that when he fought him in the future
That battle alone shows Goku SS edging SS3 tier villain, granted Goku SS was not going all out either

[TheMikado]

I'm going to ask about that theory that SSJ is now more powerful than SSJ2/3. I don't quite get how that's the case when that completely shoots simplicity in the foot. What children would understand this? It over complicates things needlessly. Dragon Ball is a simple series, and yet apparently this theory says SSJ2/3 are the new lower forms? Even the two base theory makes more sense than that.

I see it as Base -> SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> SSJ God -> SSJB as that's you know, simple. Easy to pick up. Easy for the audience to understand. Some thing like Base<SSJ2<SSJ3<SSJ<SSJB is more convoluted and counter productive.

Base -> SSJ -> SSJB was also a very simple easy to follow progression, with the other forms not being needed anymore.

It's trying to rectify that SSJ1 should be at SSGod levels now, fit the fact that SSJ3 should be 8x stronger than that. SSB still be the strongest form even more than X8 SSG, SSJ3 but not so strong where SSB X KK X 10 overshadows Beerus. Did I say all that right?

Ok and fit Trunks, Cabba, and Piccolo somewhere in all that.

[HeroR]

Once Goku took godhood into his being, his base became much stronger, so the order is still:
Base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3

The reason i came to this conclusion was reading the Hit Vs Goku manga yesterday, he goes from base, to SS to then SSG to SSB
If SS3 was compatible with Goku would have used it against beerus as a last resort move, but he didnt

There is the akira comment i mentioned as well: He said that goku would great far greater result by focusing on his base form and boosting this power with the SS transformation (this was after BoG and before RoF), he classified SS2 and above as obsolete. Maybe them being a boost of a boost is the reason why they are not compatible with this goodhood goku acquired or this different way to handle key whatever it is that made hs base and SS form capable of holding a fight against beerus

It makes no sense for Base to be stronger than Super Saiyan forms, that's just confusing for the sake of being confusing.
Goku sparred with Trunks so that he could be compared to Black. Being that Trunks wouldn't be able to sense him as a Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan 3 is the strongest that he can be that Trunks can sense.
Goku could not have got any stronger at that point unless he turned Super Saiyan Blue. There'd have been no point in him suppressing himself because that would defeat the entire purpose of trying to find out how strong Black was.

Its not like there isnt a precedent for this, see Gohan post elders ritual base form being stronger than his SS form
The reason why is this i theorize the SS2/SS3 are not compatible with Gokus new more efficient way to handle ki

I mean we have Black a fellow confirmed to be at least SS3 level by trunks, Goku edged him out as SS. Whats more Trunks confirmed he was a little stronger that when he fought him in the future
That battle alone shows Goku SS edging SS3 tier villain, granted Goku SS was not going all out either

You really can't mix the manga with the anime since in the anime Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again after he loses it. Beerus also specifically said that he kept the power of godhood regardless of the lost and everyone could feel Super Saiyan Goku, showing that he indeed lost his god energy. So Goku's base is just as strong or a little weaker than Super Saiyan God. Toriyama also said that Goku doesn't need that transformation anymore since he absorb the power of Super Saiyan God. He also never said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were incompatible with god energy, which Goku doesn't have anymore in his base or Super Saiyan forms regardless. He just said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions of Super Saiyan and it would be overall better for Goku to just train his base and Super Saiyan forms. Nothing about them not being good with god energy, especially since Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are the only forms that uses any god ki.

As for the Black vs. Goku, Black was holding back. Goku said he was, Black confirmed he was, Trunks confirmed he was, and even Vegeta confirmed he was. Black wasn't fighting with the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku, he was matching his power to Goku. That is why Goku kept demanding Black to show him his true power, and Black just said that he was in no hurry. Their fight was like Super Saiyan Goku vs. Cell before either of them powered up and their match gets interrupted before they couldn't finish.

In the manga did it's own thing, that I don't feel like getting into.

[TheMikado]

^ I think the issue is that there was never this level of widespread confusion about the Saiyan forms before. This convoluted mess of forms/abilities has never existed in the series like this.

[HeroR]

^ I think the issue is that there was never this level of widespread confusion about the Saiyan forms before. This convoluted mess of forms/abilities has never existed in the series like this.

It's only convoluted because some people don't like how much Goku and Vegeta jumped in power, and therefore some tried to underplay anyone who can challenged them.

Goku absorbs Super Saiyan God, his base becomes more powerful that before, stated in both the movie and anime. By the time of Champa Saga, Goku's base form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The power scale is:

Base = Super Saiyan God < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

The only real argument is if Goku's base form is equal or weaker than Super Saiyan God or is Super Saiyan equal to Super Saiyan God. Toriyama's words seemed to suggest their base is Super Saiyan God, while the movie and anime strongly implies Super Saiyan is as strong as Super Saiyan God. Which at this point doesn't really matter since Goku's has gotten much stronger since he fought Beerus anyway.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are not really used anymore not because they're not powerful, but because they're energy inefficient like Ultra Super Saiyan before it. They have some used since they're not nearly as bad as Ultra Super Saiyan, but in serious fights Goku and Vegeta tend to go: base form, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And, as Toriyama stated, with enough training, in time they may never used those forms again because they can make their base and Super Saiyan forms as powerful without those transformations.

In other words, it isn't all about power. If it was, Ultra Super Saiyan would have been dropped almost as soon at it was introduced.

[Cabba]

You really can't mix the manga with the anime since in the anime Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again after he loses it. Beerus also specifically said that he kept the power of godhood regardless of the lost and everyone could feel Super Saiyan Goku, showing that he indeed lost his god energy. So Goku's base is just as strong or a little weaker than Super Saiyan God. Toriyama also said that Goku doesn't need that transformation anymore since he absorb the power of Super Saiyan God. He also never said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were incompatible with god energy, which Goku doesn't have anymore in his base or Super Saiyan forms regardless. He just said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions of Super Saiyan and it would be overall better for Goku to just train his base and Super Saiyan forms. Nothing about them not being good with god energy, especially since Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are the only forms that uses any god ki.
In the manga did it's own thing, that I don't feel like getting into.

OK far enough about he manga, for clarity purposes the manga just put me on that thought process

I agree with all the bold, i never said he had god ki, I'm just theorizing that this power he absorbed or this godhood or whatever you like to call it (pleas let come up with a universal nomenclature for this) is not compatible with SS2 and beyond. I found the interview with akira i was referring to: Note this was post BoGs and before RoF so SSB was not a thing yet

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

I think this is what Whis taught Vegeta as well, when he came to visit he told him if he learned to control his ki in a different more efficient way he would be able to surpass anyone even goku, i think this new form of handling ki that goku absorbed and whis taught vegeta (the thing you call goodhood that has god powers but no god ki) is not compatible with the SS2/SS3 since they are already a boost of a boost, like Akira said: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan
This might be the reason why they are incompatible

As for the Black vs. Goku, Black was holding back. Goku said he was, Black confirmed he was, Trunks confirmed he was, and even Vegeta confirmed he was. Black wasn't fighting with the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku, he was matching his power to Goku. That is why Goku kept demanding Black to show him his true power, and Black just said that he was in no hurry. Their fight was like Super Saiyan Goku vs. Cell before either of them powered up and their match gets interrupted before they couldn't finish.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

Its not like there isnt a precedent for this, see Gohan post elders ritual base form being stronger than his SS form

But his Base form or Saiyan Beyond God form can be sensed. If that was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 then Goku would have used that against Trunks.

If he's trying to find out how strong this new mysterious bad guy is then he's going to want to know how strong he is compared to Goku's best and because Trunks can't sense SSJB then in this case SSJ3 is his best.

Like I said before it wouldn't make sense for Goku to want to see how Black compares to himself and then use one of his lesser forms.

[HeroR]

You really can't mix the manga with the anime since in the anime Goku never uses Super Saiyan God again after he loses it. Beerus also specifically said that he kept the power of godhood regardless of the lost and everyone could feel Super Saiyan Goku, showing that he indeed lost his god energy. So Goku's base is just as strong or a little weaker than Super Saiyan God. Toriyama also said that Goku doesn't need that transformation anymore since he absorb the power of Super Saiyan God. He also never said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were incompatible with god energy, which Goku doesn't have anymore in his base or Super Saiyan forms regardless. He just said that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions of Super Saiyan and it would be overall better for Goku to just train his base and Super Saiyan forms. Nothing about them not being good with god energy, especially since Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are the only forms that uses any god ki.
In the manga did it's own thing, that I don't feel like getting into.

OK far enough about he manga, for clarity purposes the manga just put me on that thought process

I agree with all the bold, i never said he had god ki, I'm just theorizing that this power he absorbed or this godhood or whatever you like to call it (pleas let come up with a universal nomenclature for this) is not compatible with SS2 and beyond. I found the interview with akira i was referring to: Note this was post BoGs and before RoF so SSB was not a thing yet

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

I think this is what Whis taught Vegeta as well, when he came to visit he told him if he learned to control his ki in a different more efficient way he would be able to surpass anyone even goku, i think this new form of handling ki that goku absorbed and whis taught vegeta (the thing you call goodhood that has god powers but no god ki) is not compatible with the SS2/SS3 since they are already a boost of a boost, like Akira said: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan
This might be the reason why they are incompatible

As for the Black vs. Goku, Black was holding back. Goku said he was, Black confirmed he was, Trunks confirmed he was, and even Vegeta confirmed he was. Black wasn't fighting with the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku, he was matching his power to Goku. That is why Goku kept demanding Black to show him his true power, and Black just said that he was in no hurry. Their fight was like Super Saiyan Goku vs. Cell before either of them powered up and their match gets interrupted before they couldn't finish.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

What do those pictures have to do with what I said. Goku said Black was holding back and demanded that Black used his full power. Black said he was in no hurry. And you forgot that after that scene Vegeta said that they should have no problem fighting Black since that was no where near their full power, but he was also worried since they didn't see Black's full power and they didn't know how much he was holding back.

Basically, Goku was confirming that Black does indeed gets stronger from fighting and he wasn't just gradually increasing his power like Cell did against Vegeta after he became perfect.

[TheMikado]

^ I think the issue is that there was never this level of widespread confusion about the Saiyan forms before. This convoluted mess of forms/abilities has never existed in the series like this.

It's only convoluted because some people don't like how much Goku and Vegeta jumped in power, and therefore some tried to underplay anyone who can challenged them.

Goku absorbs Super Saiyan God, his base becomes more powerful that before, stated in both the movie and anime. By the time of Champa Saga, Goku's base form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The power scale is:

Base = Super Saiyan God < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

The only real argument is if Goku's base form is equal or weaker than Super Saiyan God or is Super Saiyan equal to Super Saiyan God. Toriyama's words seemed to suggest their base is Super Saiyan God, while the movie and anime strongly implies Super Saiyan is as strong as Super Saiyan God. Which at this point doesn't really matter since Goku's has gotten much stronger since he fought Beerus anyway.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are not really used anymore not because they're not powerful, but because they're energy inefficient like Ultra Super Saiyan before it. They have some used since they're not nearly as bad as Ultra Super Saiyan, but in serious fights Goku and Vegeta tend to go: base form, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And, as Toriyama stated, with enough training, in time they may never used those forms again because they can make their base and Super Saiyan forms as powerful without those transformations.

In other words, it isn't all about power. If it was, Ultra Super Saiyan would have been dropped almost as soon at it was introduced.

Your stating its not convoluted!?
Oh really? When when was the last time the anime was missing AN ENTIRE FORM that appeared in the manga but not the anime. Imagine the debate of SSJ2 was in the manga but never appeared in the anime and how much it throw off not only the cell arc by the Buu arc as well. I don't see how you anyone can be ok with a huge plot point like that being completely different from the manga vs the anime. Literally this HAS NEVER occurred on the entirety of the Dragonball franchise.

It's not coincidence that that SSG form reappears in the manga at THE EXACT level and sequence people are stating the second base should be. Again this has never happened where it's been this confusing or inconsistent in the entirety of the franchise. People just have a hard time admitting that which IS FACT.

[Cabba]

But his Base form or Saiyan Beyond God form can be sensed. If that was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 then Goku would have used that against Trunks.
If he's trying to find out how strong this new mysterious bad guy is then he's going to want to know how strong he is compared to Goku's best and because Trunks can't sense SSJB then in this case SSJ3 is his best.
Like I said before it wouldn't make sense for Goku to want to see how Black compares to himself and then use one of his lesser forms.

I never argued the opposite to bold
Why use more power than SS3 if that already overwhelms Trunks? After trunks was one hit ko goku asked him how strong was black to which he answered just as strong and maybe stronger
Had Goku powered up beyond this trunks opinion would be of no use, since trunks thinks black is SS3 tier or possibly beyond with no further knowledge or comprehension of Blacks strengths

It was Trunks the one to go SS2 and Goku just followed his act, as far as goku was concerned he was a majin tier foe, so following that thought process it makes sense to use those lesser forms as you call them
If that did not make my point clear let me put it this way (for argument sake: numbers presented here are not accurate)

Code: Select all

SSB: 20
SSG: 15
SS: 13
Base: 11

SS3: 4
Trunks SS2: 2

If 4 already overwhelms trunks and he says he is just as strong as 4 and maybe stronger, what would be the point of using 11 or 13? Trunks would be just surprised

What do those pictures have to do with what I said. Goku said Black was holding back and demanded that Black used his full power. Black said he was in no hurry. And you forgot that after that scene Vegeta said that they should have no problem fighting Black since that was no where near their full power, but he was also worried since they didn't see Black's full power and they didn't know how much he was holding back.
Basically, Goku was confirming that Black does indeed gets stronger from fighting and he wasn't just gradually increasing his power like Cell did against Vegeta after he became perfect.

The point of the images was to prove that Goku SS>Goku SS3
Trunks stated Black was just a strong and possibly stronger than the SS3 Goku showcased trunks (and this was a Black that was not going all out against trunks). Now after the Goku/Black fight, trunks said Black was little stronger than in the future
So the bare minimum we have to go for Black is SS3 tier, which Black surpassed slightly during the fight with Goku. That was the point of the pictures

Point being If Black was using slight more than SS3 power while fighting goku and goku was fighting as SS and both of them were not fighting seriously there is reason to believe Goku SS is in fact stronger than the SS3 he showed trunks
I agree with all the rest you said, i dont think Goku SS was going all out

[Hugo Boss]

^ I think the issue is that there was never this level of widespread confusion about the Saiyan forms before. This convoluted mess of forms/abilities has never existed in the series like this.

That's because we are demanding a perfect written narrative and perhaps too much people have been writing this plot. Though I prefer dbzfan7's perspective, I can see where the other people come from. It's like writer-1 thinks (post God) Goku has Base and SSB, writer-2 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SSB and SSB Kaioken x10, writer-3 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SSG and SSB, writer-4 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SS2, SS3 and SSB, etc. Not only you could have two Base Goku, but four!

If Black was using slight more than SS3 power while fighting goku and goku was fighting as SS and both of them were not fighting seriously there is reason to believe Goku SS is in fact stronger than the SS3 he showed trunks

Herms fixed it. Black was a little stronger when he fought Trunks in the future.

[Bullza]

If that did not make my point clear let me put it this way (for argument sake: numbers presented here are not accurate

But something like that is so unnecessarily confusing especially without explanation. They have always portrayed them as getting stronger with each progressive Super Saiyan form.

To have it go SSJ1 > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 is somehow even messier than the two bases. This is supposed to be a series that young kids are able to understand and the simplest explanation is that it should go

SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ1 > Base

Is Super Saiyan being an 11 there while Super Saiyan 3 is only a 4 supposed to explain why Goku put up a even fight against Black despite Trunks saying he's stronger than SSJ3?

Because Trunks said he wasn't using the same power he used in sparring and Vegeta didn't say anything to suggest that "Oh Super Saiyan is stronger because of this and this" he practically confirmed what Trunks said by saying Goku's a slow starter and it's a bad habit of his.

There's also no way that Beerus would have said that Trunks was pretty good if he was only Majin level.

[Cabba]

1. I don't know and I don't mind if you think Goku or Gohan being the main characters affect their potential, the fact is that the information exists.
Yeah but this goes both ways, thats why i dont think it holds weight beyond that. Gohans potential was empathized on Cell and Gokus potential was empathized on BoGs
2. No, you are confusing the fact the hybrids grew stronger faster with a theory I supposed invented that they will always grow faster. I never stated that
My point was that during the same time frame and circumstances (i.e training) they grow the same or just as fast throughout the sagas. Oviously the hybrids would grow faster for their age if they were born with higher powers.
Ultimately my point is
Have a 20 year old hybrid and say a 40 year old Saiyan with the same power, barring plot requirements they would show similar progress under the same training circumstances. After 3 years of training you wont have one edgeing the other by a big degree
3. Fair point.
4. We don't know how efficient is Future Trunks' training in relation to Vegeta's, we know Goku's method proved to be far better. For the record, I remember Future Trunks being called an amateur a couple of times.
Trunks had his loss with Cell to reflect on what he did wrong and correct it accordingly, he then later entered the room a second time same as vegeta and they both go out with similar results. I do believe both Trunks and Vegeta would have gotten far better results if they trained together like Goku and Gohan
5. Fusion was something they mastered faster than Goku and on top of that they mastered SS3 faster*. Even Goku acknowledged that.
Goku never had a fusion partner with whom to master it, how would he master something he never did? all he did was learn the steps required to master the fusion. Gotenks mastered SS3 faster, so what? Vegeto was leagues above them without even going SS in the anime and if you wanna get picky he was still leagues above them as a SS. Obviously the fused character shows more talent than the individuals that made him, that's the who point of it, instead of teaming up
6. It's implied repeated times Gohan has become so strong because of his dormant power, the elder Kaioshin wasn't all that special.
You might need to re watch DBZ (non english dubbed) or at least Kai, the only one who went on and on about Gohans potential was the Kaioshin not the elder. He assured them his special move was the ritual to make any person incredibly strong
7. Trunks having fun while fighting Goten or his future self desperately needing to become stronger doesn't mean one would grow less than the other. Having a partner with strength close to yours gives you a fair advantage, you both improve fast.
and having a combat seasoned master (gohan in this case) is not just as good if not better? common now, if it werent for plot saga and different saga they both should have gotten at the very least comparable results, goten didnt even know how to fly
8. Sorry, I thought that happened when Gohan went to ask Bulma his disguise as Great Saiyaman.
My bad actually this might actually have happened when they were preparing for the tournament, still Vegeta was not training Trunks to become a SS he was surprised when he turned and no one was training gotens
9. Clarify that, please. What are Toriyama's words which contradict that Daizenshuu's information?
They dont hint any sort of advantage to being born tailless, he only comments on hybrids being born with a tail or without being a fluke without any repercussions specified on that comment
10. That's exactly my main point!
which is? i got lost in the paragraphs
11. Okay, it wasn't just that, but Vegeta is as strong as he is now because of the same motive. Goku is a bit more special.
why is goku more special? dont forget vegeta was a elite warrior his abilities were just downplayed in leu of goku simply always surpassing him
12. Well, I have provided examples that corroborate my point. Feel free to analyses them if you wish.
Whats your take on hybrids and saiyans growing at the same pace during the same time frame and circumstances

Answered in the quotes for order sake

[TheMikado]

^ I think the issue is that there was never this level of widespread confusion about the Saiyan forms before. This convoluted mess of forms/abilities has never existed in the series like this.

That's because we are demanding a perfect written narrative and perhaps too much people have been writing this plot. Though I prefer dbzfan7's perspective, I can see where the other people come from. It's like writer-1 thinks (post God) Goku has Base and SSB, writer-2 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SSB and SSB Kaioken x10, writer-3 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SSG and SSB, writer-4 thinks Goku has Base, SS, SS2, SS3 and SSB, etc. Not only you could have two Base Goku, but four!

If Black was using slight more than SS3 power while fighting goku and goku was fighting as SS and both of them were not fighting seriously there is reason to believe Goku SS is in fact stronger than the SS3 he showed trunks

Herms fixed it. Black was a little stronger when he fought Trunks in the future.

How is this being so messy not a problem. The fact that so many theories exist simultaneously for so long is really weird. It really comes down to how strong you think SSJ Goku is at this point and there's evidence everywhere for both arguments.

If SSJ Goku is SSG levels then so is Trunks, Cabba, Frost, and Piccolo while Buu is powered out of that power tier of he is Z SSJ3 level.
If you go the other way then everyone is at more normal levels but then you have base Goku and Vegeta being super powerful by comparison.
If you do two bases then you can have both scenarios in different circumstances.

If you go by the manga it has a plausible explanation. I keep saying that this story shouldn't exist like it does now. We are literally debating if characters are a power level difference of hundreds of times more powerful or not. I gap like that should be pretty simple and obvious.