Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cabba]

If that did not make my point clear let me put it this way (for argument sake: numbers presented here are not accurate

But something like that is so unnecessarily confusing especially without explanation They have always portrayed them as getting stronger with each progressive Super Saiyan form.

But wouldnt you agree there has been a paradigm shift ever since BoGs? We saw goku get bitch slapped and beaten with 2 easy strokes by a fellow who was using barely any strength at all

To have it go SSJ1 > Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 is somehow even messier than the two bases. This is supposed to be a series that young kids are able to understand and the simplest explanation is that it should go

Wasn't the damage already done in BoGs movie and anime when Goku fought beerus as a SS and did not use SS3 as a last resort move? If this power he absorbed was compatible with SS3 why didn't he use it?
Going by Akiras comment SS2/SS3 were not supposed to be used anymore by goku (thus avoiding the confusion), this comment was made before RoF so SSB didnt exist yet. Under this context Akira said Goku realize he would get far greater results mastering his base and ss forms and that the other forms would not be used anymore

So my take on the matter is that SS3/SS2 are gonna be use from time to time in non serious encounters as filler or fan service

Is Super Saiyan being an 11 there while Super Saiyan 3 is only a 4 supposed to explain why Goku put up a even fight against Black despite Trunks saying he's stronger than SSJ3?

Like i said those numbers where just for argument purposes not to scale. The difference between the two would be one gets bitch slapped by beerus while the other can hold a fight against beerus which is a massive gap imo

To answer your question, i dont think Goku SS was going all out either, he was slowly pushing Black and Black in return was slowly powering up, ao i would say (following that chart) Goku SS was showing a 5 at most

Because Trunks said he wasn't using the same power he used in sparring and Vegeta didn't say anything to suggest that "Oh Super Saiyan is stronger because of this and this" he practically confirmed what Trunks said by saying Goku's a slow starter and it's a bad habit of his.

I agree this is convoluted and by no means i claim or assume to have the right answer or this being the way i say
At the moment this just my opinion which is subject to change as we see more episodes, hell i just came up with this yesterday
There is so little to go by: I'm just going by what i am given

If trunks said Black was as strong as SS3 do you think Black fought trunks in the future with this power or was trunks just making calculations? if its the latter then yeah you would be right, because then trunks comment about Black being stronger than in the fututre wouldn't necessary imply Black showed a power greater than SS3 while fighting Goku

What my gut tells me is that SS3/SS2 were just filler ware, which is why many things dont make sense. Anyways the key points to my argument are
1. BoG fight
2. Akiras comment
3. Trunks comment (assuming black fought him with SS3 level power in the future)

[LightBing]

Guys the SSJ2>SSJ3 isn't a thing, Herms just made a mistake.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31269&start=420#p1115932

[TheMikado]

Guys the SSJ2>SSJ3 isn't a thing, Herms just made a mistake.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31269&start=420#p1115932

You do realize this makes the power level thing even more bizarre. Especially since Black is supposed to get stronger from you fighting him.

[Cabba]

Guys the SSJ2>SSJ3 isn't a thing, Herms just made a mistake.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31269&start=420#p1115932

Yep that seems to be the case https://twitter.com/KenXyro confirmed it too
Being a little stronger in the future puts black power while fighting goku on SS3 tier then not above. Still does not disprove that goku SS was edging out a SS3 tier enemy

You do realize this makes the power level thing even more bizarre. Especially since Black is supposed to get stronger from you fighting him.

Weird indeed, we´ll know more in episode 53. Whether this was a fuck up on the anime voicing

[apex_pretador]

Guys the SSJ2>SSJ3 isn't a thing, Herms just made a mistake.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31269&start=420#p1115932

You do realize this makes the power level thing even more bizarre. Especially since Black is supposed to get stronger from you fighting him.

No, this clears all the contradictions.


SS2 trunks <<??< SS2 goku < Black (in present, after portal started to suck him) < Black (in present,max) < SS3 goku (not full power) = Black in future

[Bullza]

Ohhh so it's changed now. It makes a bit more sense now I suppose but...

If Present Timeline (PT) Black is roughly equal to SSJ2 Goku...

And Future Timeline (FT) Black is a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku...

And Trunks said FT Black is only a little stronger than PT Black....

Then shouldn't that mean SSJ3 Goku should barely be stronger than SSJ2 Goku if at all?

And if FT Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks hold his own for a while against Black but was one shotted by SSJ3 Goku?

[apex_pretador]

Ohhh so it's changed now. It makes a bit more sense now I suppose but...

If Present Timeline (PT) Black is roughly equal to SSJ2 Goku... - somewhat superior, he was able to shrug-off his hits before the portal affected him

And Future Timeline (FT) Black is a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku... or perjhaps equal

And Trunks said FT Black is only a little stronger than PT Black.... but still significant enough to tell

Then shouldn't that mean SSJ3 Goku should barely be stronger than SSJ2 Goku if at all? He was not at full power

And if FT Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks hold his own for a while against Black but was one shotted by SSJ3 Goku? plot reasons

See it like:

Goku SS2 - 100
Black (after portal affected him) - 120
Black (before portal affected him) - 155
Black - (in FT's time) - 180
SS3 goku (suppressed) - 180

[TheMikado]

Ohhh so it's changed now. It makes a bit more sense now I suppose but...

If Present Timeline (PT) Black is roughly equal to SSJ2 Goku... - somewhat superior, he was able to shrug-off his hits before the portal affected him

And Future Timeline (FT) Black is a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku... or perjhaps equal

And Trunks said FT Black is only a little stronger than PT Black.... but still significant enough to tell

Then shouldn't that mean SSJ3 Goku should barely be stronger than SSJ2 Goku if at all? He was not at full power

And if FT Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks hold his own for a while against Black but was one shotted by SSJ3 Goku? plot reasons

See it like:

Goku SS2 - 100
Black (after portal affected him) - 120
Black (before portal affected him) - 155
Black - (in FT's time) - 180
SS3 goku (suppressed) - 180

I thought we already established SSJ3 Goku was holding back and not surpressed. If the point was to compare Gokus power level to Black why would he surpress it?

So Black held back down to SSJ2 levels, can't tell if he was surpressed or not but Trunks would have known and it sounds like his Max is around SSJ2 levels in present but his future self is slightly greater than SSJ3?
Maybe he has some kind of external power source where he gets weaker when he's away from it. Because if black gets stronger when you fight him I would think he would be stronger now after the last Trunks fight.

[Cabba]

Ohhh so it's changed now. It makes a bit more sense now I suppose but...

If Present Timeline (PT) Black is roughly equal to SSJ2 Goku...
And Future Timeline (FT) Black is a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku...
And Trunks said FT Black is only a little stronger than PT Black....
Then shouldn't that mean SSJ3 Goku should barely be stronger than SSJ2 Goku if at all?

I dont get this
If FT Black is a little Stronger than SS3 and a little stronger than PT Black
Then wouldn't PT black just be plain SS3 or at the worst a little weaker than SS3

My theory is Goku was fighting as SS obviously not going all out full power, so his SS transformation just equaled or barely edged BoGs SS3 goku

And if FT Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku then why did Trunks hold his own for a while against Black but was one shotted by SSJ3 Goku?

This is key though, like i mentioned in my previous post if Trunks was just making calculations about Black strength then yeah he did not fight him in the future with the SS3 tier power Goku showed him, BUT if he indeed fought him using SS3 tier, then black fought Goku with SS3 tier power or slightly below

[Bullza]

Well having seen the sub for the episode now there's a couple other things to point out.

Before Goku goes to fight Black, Vegeta tells Trunks that at the moment he couldn't win.

Goku turns into a Super Saiyan (2?) and fights him very briefly before Black powers up for the first time. Right after Krillin says Blacks power keeps rising. Goku and Black are practically equal.

They stop for a moment and then Goku gets serious. Then he seems to get the upper hand a little bit so then Black powers up a second time and they could be equal again.

And then finally we hear about how he was a little weaker than in the future.

I can't tell if Goku is a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 but to me it looks as if the order should be something like

FT Black >= SSJ3 Goku >= PT Black (Second Power Up) = SSJ Goku (Serious) > PT Black (First Power Up) = SSJ Goku (not serious) > PT Black > SSJ2 Trunks

I can't how there can be a big gap between SSJ and SSJ3 there unless Black after his second power up was a lot stronger than SSJ Goku and him being distracted or the distortion was why it seemed closer than it should have been.

Finally even Whis said that Black was powerful which again he wouldn't have said if he were just regular SSJ2 level.

[Cabba]

I think it was Just regular SS, they added the sparks momentarily for the flare
Since Goku SS was not going all out, i just assume he was just pushing his SS transformation to SS3 tier, otherwise he would not be able to edge Black in combat
You can see here:
[spoiler]









To which Black responds by raising his power

and goku is not backing down






Black Raises his power again




Goku Counters




And they seem to be about equal here
[/spoiler]

[Chiki]

Goku was SSJ2, you can tell from the bangs. SSJ2 has much less bangs than SSJ.

Black only calls him Super Saiyan because he isn't aware of the distinctions between the different Super Saiyan forms. It's not like Trunks could've told him.

[Hugo Boss]

It's implied repeated times Gohan has become so strong because of his dormant power, the elder Kaioshin wasn't all that special.
You might need to re watch DBZ (non english dubbed) or at least Kai, the only one who went on and on about Gohans potential was the Kaioshin not the elder. He assured them his special move was the ritual to make any person incredibly strong

Not really. According to the Daizenshuu books, the elder Kaioshin's ability is described as drawing out dormant power beyond its limits, but Goku did mention in the manga he was impressed by the amount of dormant power Gohan had (I believe that was when Gohan released a part of it).

What are Toriyama's words which contradict that Daizenshuu's information?
They dont hint any sort of advantage to being born tailless, he only comments on hybrids being born with a tail or without being a fluke without any repercussions specified on that comment

Then, there is no contradiction. He didn't say anything overwriting what was in the Daizenshuu books in this case.

That's exactly my main point!
which is? i got lost in the paragraphs

You said SS2, 11 years, and the fact he has been fighting Black for about a year could explain why Trunks became so strong. That's my point.

Okay, it wasn't just that, but Vegeta is as strong as he is now because of the same motive. Goku is a bit more special.
why is goku more special? dont forget vegeta was a elite warrior his abilities were just downplayed in leu of goku simply always surpassing him

Despite Vegeta being naturally more gifted than Goku, he lacks his guts. Goku also knows better how to handle the amount of workout he needs to get the best of his body and mind. Vegeta doesn't relax when he needs.

Well, I have provided examples that corroborate my point. Feel free to analyses them if you wish.
Whats your take on hybrids and saiyans growing at the same pace during the same time frame and circumstances

You will have to define what same "time frame and circumstances" are. A year in a hostil environment granted different results for the four Saiyans. Gohan got the best result because he had Goku as a sparring partner and Goku succeeded in bringing out his dormant power. Goku had the second best, because he sparred with his gifted son. Vegeta the third best, because he trained alone, despite being naturally more gifted than Goku. Trunks had pratically the same result as Vegeta because he trained alone and doesn't have the same battle experience as Goku and Vegeta. There is no telling how strong he would get if Goku was his partner in the room, which I believe would be the best for him.

[Bullza]

I think it was Just regular SS

Goku was SSJ2

And this is why I don't like Super Saiyan 2, you just can't clearly tell it apart.

I couldn't say for sure what he was, the sparks were there which suggests SSJ2 but yeah it could just be a visual flare because they were gone afterward, but it'd make more sense if he were a SSJ2 but they only referred to it as Super Saiyan, but then they might not be being that specific.

When Trunks turned SSJ2 he told Goku that that power didn't work against Black. So does that mean he was a SSJ2 when he fought Black in the previous episode? He didn't look like it but then why would he not use it?

The form annoys me.

[TheMikado]

The form or the writing/art?

Because as we have seen before in Z it's pretty obvious when they are using it and when they are not. Did it bother you this much in Z?

[Draconic]

Goku is clearly Super Saiyan 2, due to the bangs. He has three in SSJ2, while 5 in SSJ. Black calls it the Super Saiyan power, which includes 2 and 3, as they are just improved versions of 1. I am pretty sure it's been called that before (GT 100% refered to it, not sure about Z).

[Xeztin]

I don't understand why Black is stronger in FT's timeline or why the portal made him weaker. He should be almost on par with SSJ2 both in the future and when he came to our time. It seemed to me Goku in SSJ2 had just a bit more edge on Black porobably because Goku is better at martial arts. Black doesn't look like he fights a whole lot and normally relies on Ki blasts. Goku SSJ3 could stomp black, it was even stated he was holding back when Trunks asked about SSJ3. Goku more or less beat Black with SSJ2 and his beaten up body wasn't strong enough to escape the portal. His power didn't drop, and to prove it was because he was banged up, he couldn't even hold his flight when he returned to the future and hit the ground. Next time he should be above SSJ3 and eventually should zenkai above SSJB.

[HeroR]

I don't understand why Black is stronger in FT's timeline or why the portal made him weaker. He should be almost on par with SSJ2 both in the future and when he came to our time. It seemed to me Goku in SSJ2 had just a bit more edge on Black porobably because Goku is better at martial arts. Black doesn't look like he fights a whole lot and normally relies on Ki blasts. Goku SSJ3 could stomp black, it was even stated he was holding back when Trunks asked about SSJ3. Goku more or less beat Black with SSJ2 and his beaten up body wasn't strong enough to escape the portal. His power didn't drop, and to prove it was because he was banged up, he couldn't even hold his flight when he returned to the future and hit the ground. Next time he should be above SSJ3 and eventually should zenkai above SSJB.

Black and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were more or less evenly matched until Black began to be pulled towards the portal. You noticed that Goku didn't start getting critical hits on Black until the portal started acted up and he was distracted by Trunks' time machine. Before that moment, he was matching Goku and when Goku told him to go all out, Black said he was in no hurry and was enjoying the fight. Also, Black being sucked back into the future has nothing to do with Black being weak or strong. As Whis said, Black's time simply ran out and he was forced back into the future. It would have happened even if it was as strong as Beerus.

He was stronger in the future because being sucked into the time portal weakened him and Black doesn't just rely on ki blasts. You see from his brief fight with Trunks and even Goku that he does very elegant and fast martial arts moves. In fact, Goku looks like a brute fighter compared to Black.

[Xeztin]

I don't understand why Black is stronger in FT's timeline or why the portal made him weaker. He should be almost on par with SSJ2 both in the future and when he came to our time. It seemed to me Goku in SSJ2 had just a bit more edge on Black porobably because Goku is better at martial arts. Black doesn't look like he fights a whole lot and normally relies on Ki blasts. Goku SSJ3 could stomp black, it was even stated he was holding back when Trunks asked about SSJ3. Goku more or less beat Black with SSJ2 and his beaten up body wasn't strong enough to escape the portal. His power didn't drop, and to prove it was because he was banged up, he couldn't even hold his flight when he returned to the future and hit the ground. Next time he should be above SSJ3 and eventually should zenkai above SSJB.

Black and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were more or less evenly matched until Black began to be pulled towards the portal. You noticed that Goku didn't start getting critical hits on Black until the portal started acted up and he was distracted by Trunks' time machine. Before that moment, he was matching Goku and when Goku told him to go all out, Black said he was in no hurry and was enjoying the fight. Also, Black being sucked back into the future has nothing to do with Black being weak or strong. As Whis said, Black's time simply ran out and he was forced back into the future. It would have happened even if it was as strong as Beerus.

He was stronger in the future because being sucked into the time portal weakened him and Black doesn't just rely on ki blasts. You see from his brief fight with Trunks and even Goku that he does very elegant and fast martial arts moves. In fact, Goku looks like a brute fighter compared to Black.

Black was just as strong pre-time hop in the future as he was when he traveled to the present, though being sucked back as in his time-running out could be arguable. If the portal weakened him upon entering he probably would have said something about it or at least showed signs of stress when he arrived like he did when he got sucked back in.

[TheMikado]

^
I'm pretty sure Trunks says Black was stronger in the future.