Androids, Cyborgs, Automotons, Robots, Machines, and a Fish

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:07 pm

Pay no attention to the title, I'm suffering from study shock. (finals week begins Monday)

So, we know Android 16 is stronger than both 17 and 18, but why? Because he was purely and artificial construct? We all agree that 17 and 18 are cyborgs, so does that mean they could tap into spiritual energy as well, despite the fact they aren't quite human?

16 could be upgraded mechanically, no? A higher-output energy core, reinforced skeletal structure, etc. Is it possible that while 17 and 18 could probably be upgraded as well, they could use a unique kind of fusion between ki and whatever powers them? At the least is it a Z universe feasibility?

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:32 pm

Epsilon Grey wrote:So, we know Android 16 is stronger than both 17 and 18, but why? Because he was purely and artificial construct? We all agree that 17 and 18 are cyborgs, so does that mean they could tap into spiritual energy as well, despite the fact they aren't quite human?

#17 and #18 are fully human. They have simply been enhanced with cybernetics. With that in mind, I would assume they have as much "ki" potential as the average human, although this could be inhibited by their artificial components. Dr. Gero may have sought that result intentionally, since it would explain why their "ki" is not detectable.

Epsilon Grey wrote:16 could be upgraded mechanically, no? A higher-output energy core, reinforced skeletal structure, etc.

I doubt #16's strength comes from the materials used in his construction. Gero would have been limited to the metals available on Earth, and there are none with the required durability. I figured Gero was able to create some form of "artificial ki" that accounts for his strength.

So yeah, maybe upgrading his power source would make him stronger, but I don't think reinforcing his body would be much help.

Epsilon Grey wrote:Is it possible that while 17 and 18 could probably be upgraded as well, they could use a unique kind of fusion between ki and whatever powers them? At the least is it a Z universe feasibility?

Dr. Gero should have been able to cybernetically enhance Yamucha or any other advanced "ki" manipulator. When completed, the new cyborg would probably have access to both ordinary "ki" and whatever Gero used to power his creations.

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:40 pm

#17 and #18 are fully human. They have simply been enhanced with cybernetics.

But do they have organic brains? Or, if they do, have they been manipulated in any way? I would say that could cause some problems/restrictions. Or, conversely, it could lead to an exponential progression in power. I dunno.

And how are we defining 'human'? (always an interesting prospect) Are we talking about consciousness, flesh and blood, having a brain, or a personality/soul? I suppose Android 16 is not human, though he has human qualities. Are 17 and 18 'human' because they have the ability to choose something other than their programing, or because they were born human, and only physically altered?

Then again, 16 demonstrated qualities outside of his programming, such as compassion and self-sacrifice. So perhaps choices are not qualifiers of humanity after all. Can humanity be taken away?

--EG

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:48 pm

16 may have had human qualities, but his logic behind his actions seem to be entirely "computational," if you will.

His main goal was to kill Son Goku, plain and simple. He didn't care that Dr. Gero was insane and evil, he didn't care that 17 & 18 saw it all as a game... he had a task, and as all computers do, they simply "want" (not that you can use said term, but whatever) to complete their task. They will not take whatever means are necessary, but they will go through work-arounds if they must.

16 saw Cell as an obstacle in his task of killing Son Goku, and thus temporarily modified his actions to go after Cell. While it appeared that 16 was "worried" about 18 and having Cell reach perfect form, this sense of "worry" was probably just Dr. Gero's "programming" of 16 coming out as an "interface" for the characters to interact with. 16 wasn't "worried"; his task was being compromised.

So no, while 16 may have had human "qualities," I don't think it would be correct to qualify him as being quite "human." 17 & 18 were an interesting duo, though; it is quite clear that at least some of their memories were erased (or rather, they don't really talk about them). We don't really know what / who they were previously... I would certainly qualify them as "human"... they made conscious decisions to alter their task in their own interests, rather than simply to complete it. They did things to please themselves, rather than to complete their tasks. They may have been "evil," but... err... whatever, starting to ramble.

Thoughts?

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:05 pm

Epsilon Grey wrote:
#17 and #18 are fully human. They have simply been enhanced with cybernetics.
But do they have organic brains? Or, if they do, have they been manipulated in any way? I would say that could cause some problems/restrictions. Or, conversely, it could lead to an exponential progression in power. I dunno.

I don't think there's any reason to suspect that #17 and #18 have cybernetically-modified brains. Whatever alterations Gero made to #18 didn't involve any significant modification of her body. She can still have children, her body can heal from injury, and she ages. I doubt there are any major differences between #18 and her brother, so I think it's safe to assume that they are both human by even the strictest physical definition.

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:17 pm

Well then, do we have any idea as to what modifications were made?

And I was under the impression that when they asked the Dragon to make 18 fully human, he was unable to, so instead he removed the bomb from her body.

And if that's the case, it's ridiculous that the Dragon couldn't do that.

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:30 pm

VegettoEX wrote:16 saw Cell as an obstacle in his task of killing Son Goku, and thus temporarily modified his actions to go after Cell. While it appeared that 16 was "worried" about 18 and having Cell reach perfect form, this sense of "worry" was probably just Dr. Gero's "programming" of 16 coming out as an "interface" for the characters to interact with. 16 wasn't "worried"; his task was being compromised.

What was stopping #16 from walking up to Goku and attempting to detonate his bomb? He had the opportunity at the Cell Games. Nothing should have compelled #16 to stick around when Cell first appeared, either. He could have easily gone into hiding and emerged at the appropriate time to kill Goku.

My guess would be that he was concerned about Cell destroying the planet and wanted to be assured that Cell was defeated before he killed Goku. But if #16 was operating solely off programming, doesn't that seem like an odd motivational imperative? Why try to save the planet when your primary mission is to kill Goku? Especially considering that Goku would die if the planet was destroyed.

I think it's clear that #16 was either sapient and capable of acting independently of his programming, or had bizzare operational imperatives that kinda contradict his stated purpose. (i.e. Gero was incompetent.)

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:05 pm

Did #17 and #18 age? Certainly Kuririn's wife looked far younger than him at the end of the series. And if we're going to bring GT into it, then #17 still looked young, and #18 hadn't aged at all.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:08 pm

PsyLiam wrote:Did #17 and #18 age? Certainly Kuririn's wife looked far younger than him at the end of the series. And if we're going to bring GT into it, then #17 still looked young, and #18 hadn't aged at all.

#18 was starting to look a little wrinkled during the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:35 pm

Didn't Dr. Gero Say, when he activated 17 and 18 "Yes, I made myself an Android. I'm now immortal like you." so that would mean no, they don't age.

As for 16, I think you're wrong EX. James is right, if he was simply trying to kill Goku he would have helped Cell because Cell could have killed Goku with ease. It became evident early on that 16 enjoyed nature and valued life. At first his own thoughts were conflicting with his programing but as time passed, and by the time Cell absorbed 17, he had completely rejected them. Physically, no, he wasn't Human. But it's my opinion that, at least mentaly, he was. The 'Human' vs. 'Humanity' thing.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat May 01, 2004 12:28 am

Regarding Liam's comment about Kuririn looking much older than #18. As far as I know, I don't even think she's quite 20. By the time of the Cell Games, Kuririn's around 30, so with a ten year age difference, of course #18 would look younger longer in comparison to Kuririn.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Sat May 01, 2004 9:25 pm

Something you're all forgetting is that Bulma did some reprogramming of #16 before he ever saw Goku at the Cell Games.

He WAS programmed to Kill Goku, but I ALSO imagine there was some self-preservation programmed into him, he also had a fondness for nature and respect for like, he wouldn't obey Gero to do whatever he wanted outside of prime directive to kill Goku. Thats why Gero didnt want him out, Gero was far more likely to take the Z-senshi's side than fight for Gero, if he fought at all. He was all about protecting life and nature hence why when Cell shows up he had a new priority, selkf preservation and the preservation of earth. After Bulma repaired him he no longer had kill Goku directive, and even had a Capsule Corp logo rather than Red Ribbon. In this state he was willing to sacrafice his very being to awaken the powers in Gohan to save the world he loved so much.

Reall #16 had a strong change in directives after Bulma repaired him. And even before then there were things more important than killing Goku - he just had that goal as a set standard but everything else was moved by him.

Now as for why he's more powerful. Well I can take a guess form a literature standpoint, the silent, calm types are usually the ones who are the more powerful ones, especially in martial arts movies - which definatly had their influence on DB/Z. As for in story, I'd say its because he's fully robotic. Also they stated #17 and #18 HAD no Ki - thats why they couldn't be sensed - they didnt have any. Thats what is said - so my surmising is that they lost their Ki when they were turned into "Artificial Humans". There are some biological basis to them but I seriously doubt they were once human also - they have biological basis but #17 and #18 were "artifical humans" buiult from many artifical and biological components. #16 doesnt have any biological components, he's all robot. He was built as a war machine to kill Goku, "Hells Flash" was definatly built more as a weapon, wheras #17 and #18 look very human, wheras #16 look hulking with a human looking frame but not as convincing. Its about design, #16 was more designed to beat the hell out of things, #17 and #18 were meant to get in, do their job and get out. Thats my theory anyway.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Sat May 01, 2004 10:04 pm

laserkid wrote:He WAS programmed to Kill Goku, but I ALSO imagine there was some self-preservation programmed into him, he also had a fondness for nature and respect for like, he wouldn't obey Gero to do whatever he wanted outside of prime directive to kill Goku. Thats why Gero didnt want him out, Gero was far more likely to take the Z-senshi's side than fight for Gero, if he fought at all. He was all about protecting life and nature hence why when Cell shows up he had a new priority, selkf preservation and the preservation of earth.

Self-preservation = avoid Cell. #16 did not go out of his way to avoid Cell, even after it became clear that Cell was stronger than him. So either:

(a): #16 had no self-preservation directive. This makes little sense. He should have been programmed with at least a basic "avoid unnecessary damage" directive.

(b): #16 had a higher directive that instructed him to protect the Earth, which explains why he tried to eliminate Cell as a threat. I have no idea why Dr. Gero would program #16 with a directive like that, so it doesn't seem very logical to me.

(c): #16 could selectively ignore aspects of his programming by that point. In other words, he was glitchy and unreliable. This makes sense to me.

laserkid wrote:After Bulma repaired him he no longer had kill Goku directive, and even had a Capsule Corp logo rather than Red Ribbon. In this state he was willing to sacrafice his very being to awaken the powers in Gohan to save the world he loved so much.

I don't have the relevant manga issue or episode, but TripleRach's manga summary says that #16 told Goku "I was created to kill you. Don't forget that." after Goku wishes him good luck. If Bulma and Dr. Brief removed his directive to kill Goku, why would #16 say that? Why not wipe his entire memory?

laserkid wrote:Also they stated #17 and #18 HAD no Ki - thats why they couldn't be sensed - they didnt have any. Thats what is said - so my surmising is that they lost their Ki when they were turned into "Artificial Humans".

#18 can have children. Reproduction requires certain active biological processes, which in turn require living cells. Living cells = "ki", no matter how insignificant. It may be suppressed by cybernetics, or it may be virtually non-existant, but it must be there.

laserkid wrote:There are some biological basis to them but I seriously doubt they were once human also - they have biological basis but #17 and #18 were "artifical humans" buiult from many artifical and biological components.

IIRC, it's specifically said that #17 and #18 were enhanced from a "human base".

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat May 01, 2004 10:16 pm

James is correct. #17 and #18 actually state that that they are constructed from a "human base" when #16 tells them he's all "robot".

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sat May 01, 2004 10:16 pm

Yeah, they were both teenage delinquents that were kidnapped and experimented on by Dr. Gero, who erased most of their memories. That's why they hate him, because he did that.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Wed May 05, 2004 1:40 am

About #17 and #18 aging....when future Trunks went back to his own time and destroyed them, they still looked pretty much the same as before, which shows about a 20 year time period in which they don't change. #18 might have looked a bit older at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai because maybe Toriyama-sensei forgot that she wasn't supposed to age

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 05, 2004 2:35 am

Which is perfectly understandable.

Of course, with everything he had going on from one saga to the next I'm surprised he didn't forget more stuff... I think forgetting about Launch was the biggest... Plot hole?... in the series. (That and the fact she hadn't seemed to age any between DB and the end of Z when she made her appearance.)

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:14 pm

Even then: #18 only looked older at the 28th budoukai because she was in a dress and had old-lady hair.

number18 · Post by **number18** » Sun May 16, 2004 2:43 am

In my alternate universe RPG, my #18 had ki, but it was very dull and hard for others to sense. She couldn't sense ki at all herself and had to rely on sensors and such...nor could she master her ki like a saiyan and do things like fly and create energy blasts. All of her power relied on her eternal energy generator (which is in the manga) and her cybernetic enhancements (which in the rpg had grown substantially more complex).

That's the explanation I've always held in my mind as to why the twins have undetectable (or no) ki. Also one should note that they aren't warriors like Krillin and Tien...they more than likely never gained that higher knowledge of how to manipulate their ki since they've relied on their cybernetics. They probably have little desire or understanding on how to tap into their ki like the other human Z warriors do. Whether the raise in #18's power level as the series progresses is due to her cybernetics or her ki is unknown.

Concerning #16 being the toughest jinzouningen on the block, I've never questioned that, come to think of it. I think being an android (and not having organs and such to worry about) gives more room in the frame to cram more power in there. Who knows.

As for the twins not aging, think about why we do age. It's wear and tear on our body, our skin. Our organs start slowing down from the daily use, we don't produce fresh cells like we used to. If you're someone like #18 and your heart (conceivably) was replaced with an eternal generator and you were cybernetically enhanced, I would think the wear and tear on the body would be greatly reduced.

Oh, and since I seem to deal with people emailing me (daily, almost) with made-up information on what modifications Gero made to the twins, I'll tell you now that it's never mentioned what he does. The only time there is any mention (that I've come across) of the twins' composition is in http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/truthoftwins.jpg <-this picture.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Sun May 16, 2004 4:05 am

^ I always though that #17 & #18 did have ki, but like a normal human. Since they don't develop their use of their ki, it stays normal. Therefore, it just like any other human on the planet, so it's pretty undetectable.

They did give Gokuu ki for his Genki Dama in the Buu saga, right? [can't...remember...] So they could give the little ki they had of their own...

Kanzenshuu

Androids, Cyborgs, Automotons, Robots, Machines, and a Fish

Androids, Cyborgs, Automotons, Robots, Machines, and a Fish

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