Was the two base/suppressed ki theory finally confirmed?

[buutenks]

I said this before I'll say it agian goku and vegeta base is just really strong ( around ssj vegito lvl ) when they activate god ki ( like in the manga ) they become ssg when they activate god ki while having control of the 2 different ki's and fusing with ssj they become ssb witch is an evolved god ( witch is what they call it in many sources ) this makes the power scaling easy to understand and makes whis teaching make sense but for goku and vegeta they achieved it 2 diffrent ways goku just absorbed ssg and after he lost it it lingered then hid itself ( also explains why his full power hit didnt do more than send Kuririn flying ) until goku figuered out how to controle his ki to bring the god ki back out and vegeta no one knows but what ever theory you have it doesnt matter the piont is he has god ki and he knows how to bring it out to become a ssg ( even tho it hasn't been shown yet ) and the same applies to ssb and goku got a power up from ssg but after the lingering effects wore off but not to the degree we think he got probably around ultimate gohan to buutenks lvl vegeta got that strong from training with whis now there ssj vegito lvl tell what you think can this power scaling work and make very one happy

Some wont like this because it makes allot of characters more powerful than buu saga characters.

Tho I agree with this.

[Chiki]

@Chiki

Seriously, this is the last time I try to reason with you. Is there a miscommunication here that I'm not seeing?

I understand very well what the theory is and what it entails. But once again you failed to provide proof. Either provide proof, saying were did this second base appear in the manga and why should we see it as so. Or like you've been calling people in thread, you're the stubborn one. Nothing is confirmed because you say it is.

I'll try to be more clear:
Did any character mention this second base? Where did it appear? Did any other character take notice of the use of two different bases? Please point out in the manga, where Goku is in one Base and in the other.

You know I want you to actually try to justify this theory. I'm open to admit if I missed something or if you can provide a perspective I didn't imagine.

Yes, there is a miscommunication. You need to learn what a "by definition" proof is. Here is a simple proof:

1. By definition, a bachelor is an unmarried male. (by definition)
2. LightBing is a bachelor. (I'm guessing this is true lol)
3. If someone is a bachelor, then they are an unmarried male. (follows from definition of bachelor)
===
4. LightBing is an unmarried male. (2, 3, modus ponens)

Keep this example in mind for when I prove the two base theory in the manga.

Formal logical proof that the two base theory is true in the manga:

1. By definition, the two base theory = Goku and Vegeta have two non-Super Saiyan forms, one of which is perhaps slightly but not too much stronger than their BoG bases. They have a second non-Super Saiyan form which is around as powerful as Super Saiyan God. (by definition proof)
2. Goku in the manga can turn Super Saiyan God. (Chapter 13)
3. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God, then Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form which is equally as powerful as Super Saiyan God. (this is trivially true)
4. Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form in the manga. (2, 3, modus ponens)
5. If Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form in the manga as powerful as SSG, then the two base theory is true. (follows from definition of the two base theory)
===
6. The two base theory is true in the manga. (4, 5, modus ponens)

You keep asking me for proof. There's my formal logical proof.

If this is too hard, I urge you to study some online resources on formal logic. Here is something I found online to help you out: http://courses.umass.edu/phil110-gmh/MAIN/IHome-5.htm

[TheMikado]

^ to summarize the above:

God Ki acts like a light switch. Capable of being turned or or off at will including in the base form.
In the manga these are the forms.

God Ki off, SSJ off is regular Goku
God Ki off, SSJ on is SSJ Goku
God Ki on, SSJ off is SSG Goku (this is believed to be the second invisible base in the anime)
God Ki on, SSJ on. Is SSB Goku

The problem is that currently the only form in the anime that seems to infuse God Ki in it is SSB because they cannot be sensed but in the context of the manga makes no sense with SSG returning as it is essentially saying and further splits the fans that

1) Gokus God Ki is always on in base AND sensible by all
OR
2) Goku is now just very strong in base as his Ki can be sensed and the only form which has God Ki is SSB

So again because a scenario where the God Ki is on but SSJ is off appears in the manga, this leaves a gaping hole on whether this is possible or not at all in the anime or whether Goku/Vegeta have been using it invisibly all along.

Basically it boils down to whether you believe a form where God Ki without SSJ should exist in the Super anime.

So if people answer that, that would basically be the end of the conversation because the two viewpoints are not reconcilable. Either you believe this is a form that should exist/be used now or you don't. Is the anime right to omit this form or is the manga right to have this form?

The other problem is that the manga basically confirms that all characters save Hit, Vegeta, and Goku are well below SSG levels and even below SSJ3 BoG levels as there is nothing in the Manga to suggest that Goku's base is at SSJ3 levels at this point. Basically the story is almost radically different between the two just looking at the difference in power levels and it makes a sense of what's at stake change dramatically.

In the anime everyone is "God Tier" in the manga everyone is SSJ and below tier. Huge difference. Literally the difference between Gods and men.

[LightBing]

Yup, I'm done with you Chiki here and everywhere else in this forum. Being inelegantly disrespectful won't take you anywhere.

[Lord Beerus]

^ to summarize the above:

God Ki acts like a light switch. Capable of being turned or or off at will including in the base form.
In the manga these are the forms.

God Ki off, SSJ off is regular Goku
God Ki off, SSJ on is SSJ Goku
God Ki on, SSJ off is SSG Goku (this is believed to be the second invisible base in the anime)
God Ki on, SSJ on. Is SSB Goku

The problem is that currently the only form in the anime that seems to infuse God Ki in it is SSB because they cannot be sensed but in the context of the manga makes no sense with SSG returning as it is essentially saying and further splits the fans that

1) Gokus God Ki is always on in base AND sensible by all
OR
2) Goku is now just very strong in base as his Ki can be sensed and the only form which has God Ki is SSB

So again because a scenario where the God Ki is on but SSJ is off appears in the manga, this leaves a gaping hole on whether this is possible or not at all in the anime or whether Goku/Vegeta have been using it invisibly all along.

Basically it boils down to whether you believe a form where God Ki without SSJ should exist in the Super anime.

So if people answer that, that would basically be the end of the conversation because the two viewpoints are not reconcilable. Either you believe this is a form that should exist/be used now or you don't. Is the anime right to omit this form or is the manga right to have this form?

The other problem is that the manga basically confirms that all characters save Hit, Vegeta, and Goku are well below SSG levels and even below SSJ3 BoG levels as there is nothing in the Manga to suggest that Goku's base is at SSJ3 levels at this point. Basically the story is almost radically different between the two just looking at the difference in power levels and it makes a sense of what's at stake change dramatically.

In the anime everyone is "God Tier" in the manga everyone is SSJ and below tier. Huge difference. Literally the difference between Gods and men.

Nice summary, TheMikado. I'd also add that the anime really shot themselves in the foot with the 10% line made by Beerus in relation to SSJ2 Raging Vegta's assault against him. It really makes the power scaling a nightmare in the Super anime because you then would have to go by the assumption that Raging SSJ2 Vegeta is as strong or stronger than a SSJG to make the SSJB/KKx10 moment work within the linearity that Goku is still below Beerus. Which is bending over backwards to insane degrees.

[TheMikado]

^ We've gotten far enough into Super where I don't even bring that up anymore and just take 10% Ragetta as being completely retconned.

[Chiki]

Yup, I'm done with you Chiki here and everywhere else in this forum. Being inelegantly disrespectful won't take you anywhere.

Sorry if I unintentionally offended you, but I'm trying my best to explain something in a basic and comprehensible way.

[brett wheeler]

I said this before I'll say it agian goku and vegeta base is just really strong ( around ssj vegito lvl ) when they activate god ki ( like in the manga ) they become ssg when they activate god ki while having control of the 2 different ki's and fusing with ssj they become ssb witch is an evolved god ( witch is what they call it in many sources ) this makes the power scaling easy to understand and makes whis teaching make sense but for goku and vegeta they achieved it 2 diffrent ways goku just absorbed ssg and after he lost it it lingered then hid itself ( also explains why his full power hit didnt do more than send Kuririn flying ) until goku figuered out how to controle his ki to bring the god ki back out and vegeta no one knows but what ever theory you have it doesnt matter the piont is he has god ki and he knows how to bring it out to become a ssg ( even tho it hasn't been shown yet ) and the same applies to ssb and goku got a power up from ssg but after the lingering effects wore off but not to the degree we think he got probably around ultimate gohan to buutenks lvl vegeta got that strong from training with whis now there ssj vegito lvl tell what you think can this power scaling work and make very one happy

Some wont like this because it makes allot of characters more powerful than buu saga characters.

Tho I agree with this.

I know but it does make sense I put trunks when dabura appeared around ssj2 majin lvl ( in ssj2 ) he trained for a while puting him about ssj3 goku lvl ( buu sega still while he in ssj2 ) and then he has had his ass whipped and been fighting black for a year ( both of witch makes saiyans stronger ) and know he is in between base buuhan and base goku/vegeta ( remember black was aid to be a little stronge than ssj3 goku yet when trunks fought him he held his own even if just a little in ssj ) thats why in ssj2 goku felt the need to go ssj2 aswell so the way the scale works that makes sense is buuhan<base trunks <base goku/vegeta<ssj trunks<ssj goku/vegeta<ssj2 trunks<ssj2 goku/vegeta<ssj3 goku<black<ssg goku/vegeta<ssb goku/vegeta<tired hit<champa/ssbkk*10 goku/hit<beerus<whis<vados<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<zeno gaurds<<<<<<<<<zeno

[Swifticuffs]

Yup, I'm done with you Chiki here and everywhere else in this forum. Being inelegantly disrespectful won't take you anywhere.

Sorry if I unintentionally offended you, but I'm trying my best to explain something in a basic and comprehensible way.

Honestly you could have done better to not include the bachelor jab at the guy, but it isn't THAT offensive. He just has no counter to your theory, which is well put out.

What confuses me still is why in the manga we see SSG come back, but not in the anime and we just assume it's "Saiyan Beyond God" base, right?

Thanks for helping me bro. You too, Mikado. I'm of a similar theory backing.

[Kaboom]

I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, either. Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat about this stuff, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...

• [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.
• [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can tap into some of his godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base, which the games and whatever label as "Saiyan beyond god" I guess. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.
• [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals. (This only happened in the manga version, but it seems worth including and could probably be retroactively applied to Goku's fight with Beerus too.)
• [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.

So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be like 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it makes his power level skyrocket to far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.

[Swifticuffs]

I'm mostly apathetic about the Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, either. Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat about this stuff, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...

• [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.
• [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can tap into some of his godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.
• [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals. (This only happened in the manga version, but it seems worth including and could probably be retroactively applied to Goku's fight with Beerus too.)
• [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.

So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be like 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it makes his power level skyrocket to far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.

I like this too, bro. But another Q... didn't Cabba say he could sense Vegeta? Maybe not directly those words, but he said 'I can have this kind of power" when in awe of Blue Vegeta? Doesn't that mean he could sense him? Or this is a bad dub and Herms confirmed something else?

[Kaboom]

I like this too, bro. But another Q... didn't Cabba say he could sense Vegeta? Maybe not directly those words, but he said 'I can have this kind of power" when in awe of Blue Vegeta? Doesn't that mean he could sense him? Or this is a bad dub and Herms confirmed something else?

I wouldn't know, but it sounds like sloppy sub-work to me.

[TheMikado]

I like this too, bro. But another Q... didn't Cabba say he could sense Vegeta? Maybe not directly those words, but he said 'I can have this kind of power" when in awe of Blue Vegeta? Doesn't that mean he could sense him? Or this is a bad dub and Herms confirmed something else?

I wouldn't know, but it sounds like sloppy sub-work to me.

More than likely just sloppy writing where they forgot SSB isn't supposed to be sensed. We assumed Hit is strong enough to sense God ki, but its probably really because the writers forgot in this arc that the form is supposed to be unsensible to anyone but Gods.

[Chiki]

Yup, I'm done with you Chiki here and everywhere else in this forum. Being inelegantly disrespectful won't take you anywhere.

Sorry if I unintentionally offended you, but I'm trying my best to explain something in a basic and comprehensible way.

Honestly you could have done better to not include the bachelor jab at the guy, but it isn't THAT offensive. He just has no counter to your theory, which is well put out.

What confuses me still is why in the manga we see SSG come back, but not in the anime and we just assume it's "Saiyan Beyond God" base, right?

Thanks for helping me bro. You too, Mikado. I'm of a similar theory backing.

Being called a bachelor is offensive? LOL I'm a bachelor too.

"Bachelor" examples are the main ones used in analytic philosophy, so I went with those.

Doesn't that mean he could sense him?

Not necessarily. He might just be impressed by its appearance and Vegeta saying that it was the latest SS form.

What confuses me still is why in the manga we see SSG come back, but not in the anime and we just assume it's "Saiyan Beyond God" base, right?

Yes. Strictly speaking, SSG and SBG are not the same in terms of power either. SBG is a little bit weaker than SSG according to Beerus. Also, SBG might either be composed entirely of regular ki or regular ki + godly ki as Kaboom said. Unlike SSG which is 100% godly ki.

But it's the two base theory either way with minimal differences.

[Hugo Boss]

Formal logical proof that the two base theory is true in the manga:

1. By definition, the two base theory = Goku and Vegeta have two non-Super Saiyan forms, one of which is perhaps slightly but not too much stronger than their BoG bases. They have a second non-Super Saiyan form which is around as powerful as Super Saiyan God. (by definition proof)
2. Goku in the manga can turn Super Saiyan God. (Chapter 13)
3. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God, then Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form which is equally as powerful as Super Saiyan God. (this is trivially true)
4. Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form in the manga. (2, 3, modus ponens)
5. If Goku has a second non-Super Saiyan form in the manga as powerful as SSG, then the two base theory is true. (follows from definition of the two base theory)
===
6. The two base theory is true in the manga. (4, 5, modus ponens)

You keep asking me for proof. There's my formal logical proof.

If this is too hard, I urge you to study some online resources on formal logic. Here is something I found online to help you out: http://courses.umass.edu/phil110-gmh/MAIN/IHome-5.htm

I don't think we need a bachelor's degree to see there is a flaw here. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God in the manga, this second non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as Super Saiyan God is actually Super Saiyan God itself.

[TheMikado]

^ but that's pretty much what people have been saying all along. Logically they could/should be a form in between SSJ3 and SSB that has similar power to the SSG form. The fact that that form actually IS the SSG form in the manga is irrelevant. The point of this debate is not that Goku HAS to have a second "base". It has always been that there should be a non SSJ form which also uses God Ki and specifically in the manga that form appears to be invisible and in effect a "2nd base" if it was later revealed that Goku had been using the SSG form throughout Super it's just been invisible. No one in the two base camps power rankings or understanding of the story would change at all because they always assumed that a form similar to that was in use.

[Hugo Boss]

^ but that's pretty much what people have been saying all along. Logically they could/should be a form in between SSJ3 and SSB that has similar power to the SSG form. The fact that that form actually IS the SSG form in the manga is irrelevant. The point of this debate is not that Goku HAS to have a second "base". It has always been that there should be a non SSJ form which also uses God Ki and specifically in the manga that form appears to be invisible and in effect a "2nd base" if it was later revealed that Goku had been using the SSG form throughout Super it's just been invisible. No one in the two base camps power rankings or understanding of the story would change at all because they always assumed that a form similar to that was in use.

The problem with this reasoning is that you can't assume, if Goku is red, he can be orange... If Goku is red, then he can be red. I don't mind if there are people who subscribe to such a theory, but to claim this discourse is flawless is a mistake.

[Chiki]

I don't think we need a bachelor's degree to see there is a flaw here. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God in the manga, this second non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as Super Saiyan God is actually Super Saiyan God itself.

That's not a flaw. That's just a tautology, i.e. a statement which is always true (lol so it's the opposite of a flaw.)

For example, a non-married bachelor is trivially a bachelor. A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG. Trivially.

We use trivial tautologies in logic like this quite a lot.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think we need a bachelor's degree to see there is a flaw here. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God in the manga, this second non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as Super Saiyan God is actually Super Saiyan God itself.

That's not a flaw. That's just a tautology, i.e. a statement which is always true (lol so it's the opposite of a flaw.)

For example, A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG. Trivially.

We use trivial tautologies in logic like this quite a lot.

"A non-married bachelor is a bachelor" is a tautology.
"A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG" isn't.

Or better:
Dark Blue is Blue is true.
Red is Yellow is false.

[Chiki]

I don't think we need a bachelor's degree to see there is a flaw here. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God in the manga, this second non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as Super Saiyan God is actually Super Saiyan God itself.

That's not a flaw. That's just a tautology, i.e. a statement which is always true (lol so it's the opposite of a flaw.)

For example, A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG. Trivially.

We use trivial tautologies in logic like this quite a lot.

"A non-married bachelor is a bachelor" is a tautology.
"A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG" isn't.

Yes it is. SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form, and it's trivially true that it is also as powerful as SSG. Which one of these do you deny?

1. SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form.
2. SSG is as powerful as SSG. This is a tautology and undeniable.

1 is true because Goku can use the power of SS in SSG to go SSGSS (SSB). So SSG is not a Super Saiyan form because he can go SS in SSG.