Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cabba]

He isn't stronger than Base Goku in the Champa arc. He's just as strong as Base Gohan who is about 8 months or so stronger than when he was on par with Tagoma.

How is he not? He fought Final form frost who was above base Goku.

a badly worn out frost
Not to mention Goku didn't need to go SS to beat frost, i believe he went SS because he could not afford the luxury of wasting his energy fighting Frost in his base form when he has other matches ahead, the reasonable solution would be to effortlessly beat him as SS which he did

[Chiki]

Which Frieza? Namek or RoF? RoF Frieza is WAAAAAY stronger than Namek Frieza. RoF First Form Frieza turned Super Saiyan Gohan into swiss cheese with ease.

I think he meant Goku and Vegeta base forms are stronger than RoF final form frieza which is clearly true as shown in the movie and manga

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.

In the movie, it is also clear that Goku uses SSG power in his Base form simply because Toriyama said so.

[Bullza]

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.

It would be exactly the same as the movie, anime and 3 chapter F manga. The events that happened in the Super manga continuity are events that the reader is already familiar with, that's why they felt it was fine for it to be skipped.

Plus there's be no need for the others to have reacted as they did if he were to have just used the form against Frieza.

[TheMikado]

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.

It would be exactly the same as the movie, anime and 3 chapter F manga. The events that happened in the Super manga continuity are events that the reader is already familiar with, that's why they felt it was fine for it to be skipped.

Plus there's be no need for the others to have reacted as they did if he were to have just used the form against Frieza.

I find it ironic that the Saiyan beyond God theory (I'm changing the name) easily fixes this and the Cabba vs SSJ3 Gotenks questions,

[Cabba]

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.
In the movie, it is also clear that Goku uses SSG power in his Base form simply because Toriyama said so.

This never happened, Goku fought in his base form very different from the SSG form shown vs Hit
[spoiler]



SSG form (vs hit)
[/spoiler]

Goku has God power in his base form, he does not need to transform to access this, he does not have god ki though

[Chiki]

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.
In the movie, it is also clear that Goku uses SSG power in his Base form simply because Toriyama said so.

This never happened, Goku fought in his base form very different from the SSG form shown vs Hit
[spoiler]



SSG form (vs hit)
[/spoiler]

Goku has God power in his base form, he does not need to transform to access this, he does not have god ki though

He does need to transform to it in the Super manga. I never said it happened. I know he had the appearance of Base in the manga. I'm simply assuming that the RoF manga was retconned so that he transformed into SSG against Frieza.

[Hugo Boss]

Then, there is no contradiction. He didn't say anything overwriting what was in the Daizenshuu books in this case.

But he didn't confirm it either, this would have been the perfect time to lay that info if he felt it was relevant but he didn't. I dont place much value on magazines and other promotional material content unless that content is straight from the creators in which i case i will shut up

The Daizenshuu books are published by Shueisha and Akira Toriyama is listed as the author for all the books. He doesn't need to oversee every tidbit it has.

Vegeta and trunks is the perfect example of saiyans and hybrids progressing similarly under similar circumstances

We don't have any specific detail of Trunks' and Vegeta's training in the room. How can you assume they used the same kind of training? If they trained separated, Trunks would hardly get as much as benefits as Vegeta, the gap in experience is big. Being trained by Gohan is no big deal either, Gohan himself lost his master when he was still a kid.

[TheMikado]

In the manga, Goku uses SSG power in his Base form to fight Frieza. I guess the manga continuity retconned that so Goku transformed into SSG to fight Final Form Frieza.
In the movie, it is also clear that Goku uses SSG power in his Base form simply because Toriyama said so.

This never happened, Goku fought in his base form very different from the SSG form shown vs Hit
[spoiler]



SSG form (vs hit)
[/spoiler]

Goku has God power in his base form, he does not need to transform to access this, he does not have god ki though

I don't remember seeing this in the manga, where is this from?

[Khin]

I don't remember seeing this in the manga, where is this from?

Promotional manga for the RoF movie. Which was also drawn by Toyotaro.

[TheMikado]

I don't remember seeing this in the manga, where is this from?

Promotional manga for the RoF movie. Which was also drawn by Toyotaro.

Wait so not in the other manga, so basically yet another continuity.

[Bullza]

I'm simply assuming that the RoF manga was retconned so that he transformed into SSG against Frieza.

Wouldn't it just be a lot easier to say that Resurrection F happened as we saw it and just that the Super Saiyan God power was retconned to be more powerful compared to Base than what we originally believed it to be?

Not that I don't see why the gap between Base and SSJG in the Battle of Gods movie couldn't just be the same as in the Universe 6 manga but if not a retcon that gave the form a bit of a bigger boost than before is much more likely.

[ekrolo2]

I don't remember seeing this in the manga, where is this from?

Promotional manga for the RoF movie. Which was also drawn by Toyotaro.

Wait so not in the other manga, so basically yet another continuity.

One near identical to the movie with a few exceptions such as the Z-fighters never getting tired during the army fight and Gohan not getting one shotted by Freeza. Given the fact that manga isn't being sold with the Super one nor is it ever really finished (it ends just when Freeza's about to use his Golden form) its connection to the Super manga is questionable.

[Cabba]

I never said it happened. I know he had the appearance of Base in the manga. I'm simply assuming that the RoF manga was retconned so that he transformed into SSG against Frieza.

How could it be rectconned when it was confirmed three times?
Manga
Movie
Anime

He does need to transform to it in the Super manga.

I assume you mean SSG like he did against Hit
Its too early too tell that, goku did not have strong opponents ever since frieza

The Daizenshuu books are published by Shueisha and Akira Toriyama is listed as the author for all the books. He doesn't need to oversee every tidbit it has.

But if he does not take part on the content creation how can it have the same value as source material? Thats akin to taking the videogames as source. But as i said, i dont feel this is a crucial or important point to be debating over

We don't have any specific detail of Trunks' and Vegeta's training in the room. How can you assume they used the same kind of training? If they trained separated, Trunks would hardly get as much as benefits as Vegeta, the gap in experience is big.

Trunks knew about Vegetas progress on the Rosat, when they came out of there he was recalling the events to goku and the others he mostly lacked judgement which made him fall for the false power up

Being trained by Gohan is no big deal either, Gohan himself lost his master when he was still a kid.

vs? Being trained by Gohan is on spar or better than having 7 year old goten as sparring partner
Gohan had already been trained by piccolo, had battle experience against saiyans, namek and the androids

[Cabba]

One near identical to the movie with a few exceptions such as the Z-fighters never getting tired during the army fight and Gohan not getting one shotted by Freeza. Given the fact that manga isn't being sold with the Super one nor is it ever really finished (it ends just when Freeza's about to use his Golden form) its connection to the Super manga is questionable.

Is it? Thats like saying the connection of Battle of Gods to the super manga is questionable
It was written by the same creator with akiras design of the characters and main script input

This manga was meant as a teaser for the movie to come, DBS was not anounced at this time yet. It made more sense to skip RoF on the super manga since Toyotaro had already made a manga stand alone for the movie

[ekrolo2]

One near identical to the movie with a few exceptions such as the Z-fighters never getting tired during the army fight and Gohan not getting one shotted by Freeza. Given the fact that manga isn't being sold with the Super one nor is it ever really finished (it ends just when Freeza's about to use his Golden form) its connection to the Super manga is questionable.

Is it? Thats like saying the connection of Battle of Gods to the super manga is questionable
It was written by the same creator with akiras design of the characters and main script input

This manga was meant as a teaser for the movie to come, DBS was not anounced at this time yet. It made more sense to skip RoF on the super manga since Toyotaro had already made a manga stand alone for the movie

It isn't questionable: it's non-existent. The manga does its own version of Battle of Gods that can't work with the movie. The whole fight on Kai's planet is different, what Supreme and Old Kai do during Beerus' visit is different, the battle against Goku and Beerus is different. The movie can't work with the Super manga unless you ignore its re-telling of the movie which is already asking for problems by smashing together two different continuities into one another.

I mean, I think doing so is ridiculous as that would make Piccolo, a guy treated as worthless fodder in the tournament roughly a 6 on the God Scale with absolutely no training or power increase shown or implied at all. That'd be an even harder pill to swallow than him apparently being stronger than Gotenks as in the anime.

[brett wheeler]

One near identical to the movie with a few exceptions such as the Z-fighters never getting tired during the army fight and Gohan not getting one shotted by Freeza. Given the fact that manga isn't being sold with the Super one nor is it ever really finished (it ends just when Freeza's about to use his Golden form) its connection to the Super manga is questionable.

Is it? Thats like saying the connection of Battle of Gods to the super manga is questionable
It was written by the same creator with akiras design of the characters and main script input

This manga was meant as a teaser for the movie to come, DBS was not anounced at this time yet. It made more sense to skip RoF on the super manga since Toyotaro had already made a manga stand alone for the movie

It isn't questionable: it's non-existent. The manga does its own version of Battle of Gods that can't work with the movie. The whole fight on Kai's planet is different, what Supreme and Old Kai do during Beerus' visit is different, the battle against Goku and Beerus is different. The movie can't work with the Super manga unless you ignore its re-telling of the movie which is already asking for problems by smashing together two different continuities into one another.

I mean, I think doing so is ridiculous as that would make Piccolo, a guy treated as worthless fodder in the tournament roughly a 6 on the God Scale with absolutely no training or power increase shown or implied at all. That'd be an even harder pill to swallow than him apparently being stronger than Gotenks as in the anime.

to be fair the reason toyataro gave for skipping rof in the super manga was because he had already made a super manga and didnt want to draw the same thing over again this implies that if he drew it again it would ave been nearly identical to the f promotional manga so you can just assume that f promo manga is apart of super

[ekrolo2]

this implies that if he drew it again it would ave been nearly identical to the f promotional manga so you can just assume that f promo manga is apart of super

Did he ever give any reason for skipping the F arc? I didn't hear anything on the subject.

I'd also like to point out the Toei doesn't treat the F manga as part of the Super one as they're sold seperately. I think if they packedged them together and had Toyotaro draw a couple of chapters to conclude it, there'd be more solid footing to make them the same continuity. As it stands: the F manga was just there to tease people about the film and not much else.

[Chiki]

How could it be rectconned when it was confirmed three times?
Manga
Movie
Anime

Movie and anime don't count. The manga has its own continuity.

And in the RoF manga, he clearly uses SSG power in Base. Toyotaro has changed his mind. The only way for Goku to use SSG power in Base now is to turn into SSG. Therefore, Toyotaro contradicted his RoF manga.

The RoF manga was also contradicted in the BoG arc of the manga where Goku powers down from SSG to Base and he doesn't fight Beerus afterwards unlike the movies and the anime. This implies that again, Toyotaro changed his mind about Goku absorbing SSG power into his Base. Coupled with the proof that Goku goes SSG against Hit, this is strong evidence of a retcon.

[brett wheeler]

this implies that if he drew it again it would ave been nearly identical to the f promotional manga so you can just assume that f promo manga is apart of super

Did he ever give any reason for skipping the F arc? I didn't hear anything on the subject.

I'd also like to point out the Toei doesn't treat the F manga as part of the Super one as they're sold seperately. I think if they packedged them together and had Toyotaro draw a couple of chapters to conclude it, there'd be more solid footing to make them the same continuity. As it stands: the F manga was just there to tease people about the film and not much else.

I am not 100% sure but I heard he didnt want to draw the same manga again and we already knew what happened so it didnt matter and even still toei saying f isnt part of the manga doesnt say anything about it what happened being diffrent it says the opposite cause if toyatoro f doesnt count as canon to then supers anime version does thats what there implying ( remember the manga is just promotion for the anime ) so the best way to say it is either the f manga is canon to super manga or the anime is just what happened all around in the manga and the anime

[ekrolo2]

this implies that if he drew it again it would ave been nearly identical to the f promotional manga so you can just assume that f promo manga is apart of super

Did he ever give any reason for skipping the F arc? I didn't hear anything on the subject.

I'd also like to point out the Toei doesn't treat the F manga as part of the Super one as they're sold seperately. I think if they packedged them together and had Toyotaro draw a couple of chapters to conclude it, there'd be more solid footing to make them the same continuity. As it stands: the F manga was just there to tease people about the film and not much else.

I am not 100% sure but I heard he didnt want to draw the same manga again and we already knew what happened so it didnt matter and even still toei saying f isnt part of the manga doesnt say anything about it what happened being diffrent it says the opposite cause if toyatoro f doesnt count as canon to then supers anime version does thats what there implying ( remember the manga is just promotion for the anime ) so the best way to say it is either the f manga is canon to super manga or the anime is just what happened all around in the manga and the anime

That sounds like speculation to me, given how much we've argued over this topic, if a proper translation stating such a thing came out, it would've been tossed around by now, hence why I'm dubious on this detail. The only thing we know about Toyotaro's Super version of F is that Goku and Vegeta had to work together to beat Freeza. This already flies in the face of the film and anime where Goku acts like a shit head (again), gets everyone killed then has to bail himself out with Whis' help, that's not exactly him and Vegeta working together to beat an adversary.

Honestly, I think Toyotaro doesn't care about the whole "canon" thing anymore than Toei or Toriyama do and was allowed to go ahead of the anime. The mangas existence is there to promote the anime and what better way to do that than skip ahead to keep people somewhat invested into things while the anime pointlessly rehashes the movies.