Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[brett wheeler]

Did he ever give any reason for skipping the F arc? I didn't hear anything on the subject.

I'd also like to point out the Toei doesn't treat the F manga as part of the Super one as they're sold seperately. I think if they packedged them together and had Toyotaro draw a couple of chapters to conclude it, there'd be more solid footing to make them the same continuity. As it stands: the F manga was just there to tease people about the film and not much else.

I am not 100% sure but I heard he didnt want to draw the same manga again and we already knew what happened so it didnt matter and even still toei saying f isnt part of the manga doesnt say anything about it what happened being diffrent it says the opposite cause if toyatoro f doesnt count as canon to then supers anime version does thats what there implying ( remember the manga is just promotion for the anime ) so the best way to say it is either the f manga is canon to super manga or the anime is just what happened all around in the manga and the anime

That sounds like speculation to me, given how much we've argued over this topic, if a proper translation stating such a thing came out, it would've been tossed around by now, hence why I'm dubious on this detail. The only thing we know about Toyotaro's Super version of F is that Goku and Vegeta had to work together to beat Freeza. This already flies in the face of the film and anime where Goku acts like a shit head (again), gets everyone killed then has to bail himself out with Whis' help, that's not exactly him and Vegeta working together to beat an adversary.

Honestly, I think Toyotaro doesn't care about the whole "canon" thing anymore than Toei or Toriyama do and was allowed to go ahead of the anime. The mangas existence is there to promote the anime and what better way to do that than skip ahead to keep people somewhat invested into things while the anime pointlessly rehashes the movies.

I guess but the piont of ressurection f movie or anime is that goku and vegeta wont work together to defeat an enemy even if there getting there ass beaten and what happened in the movie and anime is them kinda working together goku comes in fuckes stuff up vegeta steps in fucks more stuff up whis has to be the one to fix it and goku kamehameha's the fuck out of frieza so it could have I dont really care I am a middle man in the 2 base theory any way I believe goku and vegata base is really strong ( about buuhan at the least ) they can still go ssj1-3 but arnt on the lvl of the gods with it so goku learned how to reactivate ssg and vegeta learned how to naturally transform into it and when they use ssg controle there ki and infuse it with ssj they become ssb it makes things less complex and more reasonable trunks isnt ssg lvl he is just between buutenks and buuhan and same goes for most the competitors of the u6 arc and it makes sense since trunks had his ass beat by somebody who I would speculate is around fat buu lvl when he first appeared and keeps getting stronger so trunks by the begining of blacks attack was buu sega ssj2 lvl be the end of it I assume trunks in ssj2 is slightly above ssj goku ( remember this is someone trunks been fighting for a year with steady growth not like buu who just got immensely stronger in a day or so ) I think that makes perfect sense

[Cabba]

snip

Movie and anime don't count. The manga has its own continuity.

I dont think you two realize the implications of what you are saying
The anime and manga are story re-tellings of both movies, of course they will mix them up a bit, the main plot hole and idea remains the same
It would be foolish to claim the movies dont count or that they are not canon to the story, specially since they were a catalyst to DBS and akira involvement with both of them
The simple explanation for the RoF manga is that it was meant as a stand alone movie teaser, it wouldn't make sense to put an incomplete manga on the DBS catalog
btw ekrolo2 i have no idea what you are trying to say about piccolo please elaborate

Honestly, I think Toyotaro doesn't care about the whole "canon" thing anymore than Toei or Toriyama do and was allowed to go ahead of the anime. The mangas existence is there to promote the anime and what better way to do that than skip ahead to keep people somewhat invested into things while the anime pointlessly rehashes the movies.

So you are saying the manga doesn't count then.

And in the RoF manga, he clearly uses SSG power in Base. Toyotaro has changed his mind. The only way for Goku to use SSG power in Base now is to turn into SSG.

How do you know this? where are your sources? Its misleading to pass your opinion as fact

The RoF manga was also contradicted in the BoG arc of the manga where Goku powers down from SSG to Base and he doesn't fight Beerus afterwards unlike the movies and the anime. This implies that again, Toyotaro changed his mind about Goku absorbing SSG power into his Base. Coupled with the proof that Goku goes SSG against Hit, this is strong evidence of a retcon.

The manga is a story re-telling, it was after the movie they mix things up a bit
How can Toyotaro change his mind on something Akira introduced as a plot element concept? Also being able to transform into SSG at will implies Goku indeed absorbed the SSG shrine to even a greater degree into his body (what is said on the movie). Just like we see in the BoG movie goku go momentarily SSG to stop beerus attack

[Chiki]

It would be foolish to claim the movies dont count or that they are not canon to the story,

I did not say the movies are not canon to the story. I said in this thread multiple times that I think the movies are the real canon.

There is a difference between saying the movies have their own continuity and the movies are not canon. Here is how it works.

Three Super continuities:

Anime BoG and RoF = Non-canon
Movie BoG and RoF = Canon (Toriyama had the most involvement with this)
Manga BoG and RoF = Non-canon

Canon simply means that the continuity is the right one to represent the DBS series. Non-canon continuities still exist.

How do you know this? where are your sources?

I'm just using basic reasoning here.

In the RoF manga, Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base. There is a panel in which SSG Goku is right behind Base Goku, right? The incredibly obvious implication here is that Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base. That's why Toyotaro put it there, and anyone who says otherwise can't read a manga.

But in the Super manga, we notice a couple different things (Goku loses SSG power against Beerus and does not fight him in Base, plus he can transform into SSG). This means that Goku has NOT absorbed his SSG power into his Base.

We have a logical contradiction. Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base, but he also has not. Therefore, there must have been a retcon. And we have to pick the newer option because it represents Toyotaro's most recent thinking. Therefore, Goku can no longer use SSG power in Base and the RoF manga has been retconned.

If you don't understand this then I'm simply not going to reply to you again.

How can Toyotaro change his mind on something Akira introduced as a plot element concept?

Toriyama already said we wouldn't see SSG again, so he obviously changed his mind too!

[Bullza]

We have a logical contradiction. Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base, but he also has not. Therefore, there must have been a retcon.

No there isn't. Again it's being overcomplicated.

In the manga the Goku and Beerus rematch fight was an entire 11 pages long, there was no time for Goku to fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan God, have the time limit expire, him revert to Base and or Super Saiyan, continue fighting, realise he'd lost no power and then for it to be explained that he'd absorbed it.

The fight and arc in general was rushed. So in the manga continuity Goku would have simply just realised after Beerus had left that he'd absorbed the power of a God and then the Resurrection F story plays out the same as the other 3 versions and the Champa arc goes in line with the anime.

Why is it being made complicated for nothing?

[TheMikado]

Did they reference the ROF arc in the Super manga?

[Lord Beerus]

Did they reference the ROF arc in the Super manga?

Only very briefly were the narrator implies that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to take down Golden Freeza.

[TheMikado]

Did they reference the ROF arc in the Super manga?

Only very briefly were the narrator implies that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to take down Golden Freeza.

Do you remember which chapter that was?

[Lord Beerus]

Did they reference the ROF arc in the Super manga?

Only very briefly were the narrator implies that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to take down Golden Freeza.

Do you remember which chapter that was?

Chapter 5, Page 8, Panel 7

[Chiki]

So in the manga continuity Goku would have simply just realised after Beerus had left that he'd absorbed the power of a God

If he already absorbed SSG power into his Base, then why the heck can he transform to SSG in the manga? Redundant.

If you say "OH HE ABSORBED SOME BUT NOT ALL SSG POWER INTO HIS BASE!!" then you're the one overcomplicating things. Lol

Why is it being made complicated for nothing?

No one is overcomplicating anything here except you. You accuse people of overcomplicating things when you're the one overcomplicating things. It's just frustrating to talk to someone when it's obvious they're too stubborn to reason with, so I added you to my ignore list.

[Hugo Boss]

The Daizenshuu books are published by Shueisha and Akira Toriyama is listed as the author for all the books. He doesn't need to oversee every tidbit it has.

But if he does not take part on the content creation how can it have the same value as source material? Thats akin to taking the videogames as source. But as i said, i dont feel this is a crucial or important point to be debating over

There is no real answer for that. The Daizenshuu are supplementary guide books which not only repeat what you see in the main source material but also expand on the world of Dragon Ball. It's oficially a product involved with almost every aspect there is to see about this story. So, it has the value you want it to have. Disregard it if you want, I will use them as back-up if I wish so. You probably don't think it's important to debate over it, because that information goes against your opinion.

Being trained by Gohan is no big deal either, Gohan himself lost his master when he was still a kid.

vs? Being trained by Gohan is on spar or better than having 7 year old goten as sparring partner
Gohan had already been trained by piccolo, had battle experience against saiyans, namek and the androids

What I mean is Gohan still didn't have enough battle experience when he left Namek and he had no choice but to build up his strength by himself after his friends died. The androids easily defeated him each time he went at them. When Trunks was almost reaching Gohan's level, Gohan was killed by No.17, leaving Trunks alone to seek for more strength.

With Goten, Trunks builded his strength up similar to Gohan in the RoSaT. The difference is that they fought a lot while they were much younger than Trunks in the future and mastered Super Saiyan. Fighting as Super Saiyans must have increased their power very quickly, as it did with Gohan and Goku.

[Bullza]

If he already absorbed SSG power into his Base, then why the heck can he transform to SSG in the manga? Redundant.

Probably for the exact same reason he could transform into a SSJG in the Battle of Gods movie even after they already said he'd absorbed it.

No one is overcomplicating anything here except you. You accuse people of overcomplicating things when you're the one overcomplicating things. It's just frustrating to talk to someone when it's obvious they're too stubborn to reason with, so I added you to my ignore list.

I'm not overcomplicating anything, I just gave a very simple explanation that allows for the versions to match up. Assuming the manga has a radically different continuity where he didn't absorb it and Resurrection F played out differently and all the U6 characters are drastically weaker than the anime is overcomplicating it but if you want to cop out again by ignoring me then that's all good.

[HeroR]

If he already absorbed SSG power into his Base, then why the heck can he transform to SSG in the manga? Redundant.

Probably for the exact same reason he could transform into a SSJG in the Battle of Gods movie even after they already said he'd absorbed it.

No one is overcomplicating anything here except you. You accuse people of overcomplicating things when you're the one overcomplicating things. It's just frustrating to talk to someone when it's obvious they're too stubborn to reason with, so I added you to my ignore list.

I'm not overcomplicating anything, I just gave a very simple explanation that allows for the versions to match up. Assuming the manga has a radically different continuity where he didn't absorb it and Resurrection F played out differently and all the U6 characters are drastically weaker than the anime is overcomplicating it but if you want to cop out again by ignoring me then that's all good.

And it would be terrible writing I may add. The reason why Resurrection 'F' was skipped in the manga was because it was assumed everyone knew the story from the movie or they were going to watched the Super's adaptation. So no need to retread. Turning around and saying that different events happened when almost everyone are familiar with the events of the movie or anime is just sloppy.

And Goku going Super Saiyan God was redundant, which is why fans had a problem with him using it, especially when Toriyama said Goku didn't need that form anymore.

[Chiki]

Assuming the manga has a radically different continuity where he didn't absorb it and Resurrection F played out differently and all the U6 characters are drastically weaker than the anime is overcomplicating it but if you want to cop out again by ignoring me then that's all good.

I think you're the first and only person to think that Goku didn't get a power boost by transforming into SSG in the manga. ROFL you have to be kidding right? I guess Toyotaro just made him transform into SSG for fashion purposes!

Does anyone here agree with that? Do you guys think Goku didn't get a power boost when he transformed into SSG?

Probably for the exact same reason he could transform into a SSJG in the Battle of Gods movie even after they already said he'd absorbed it.

This has a really easy explanation. SSG Goku is a little bit stronger than Base-SSG Goku in BoG, as Beerus stated, so he needed to transform to that to absorb the blast. It's that simple.

[Bullza]

I think you're the first and only person to think that Goku didn't get a power boost by transforming into SSG in the manga.

I never said that, of course he got a boost. He got a power boost in the movie and he got a power boost in the manga as well.

All I'm suggesting is what's simple and straightforward and that is that in the Super manga continuity...

1. No they didn't directly say that Goku had absorbed the SSJG power because they were was no place for it to be said but....

2. Like in all other versions, he DID absorb that power and just realised it after Beerus left instead, so...

3. The events of Resurrection F that the manga skipped over played out the same as the other three versions of that story, meaning...

4. The Super anime and Super manga based on the same plot outline are roughly in line with each other as they should be.

So the manga doesnt have to retcon a vital plot point, the events of Resurrection F don't have to be wildly different and their doesn't have to be two different levels of power between the two even though they're based on the same outline.

It's being made to be way too complicated just because one detail was perhaps appropriately left out of a very rushed fight.

[Chiki]

I think you're the first and only person to think that Goku didn't get a power boost by transforming into SSG in the manga.

I never said that, of course he got a boost. He got a power boost in the movie and he got a power boost in the manga as well.

All I'm suggesting is what's simple and straightforward and that is that in the Super manga continuity...

1. No they didn't directly say that Goku had absorbed the SSJG power because they were was no place for it to be said but....

2. Like in all other versions, he DID absorb that power and just realised it after Beerus left instead, so...

3. The events of Resurrection F that the manga skipped over played out the same as the other three versions of that story, meaning...

4. The Super anime and Super manga based on the same plot outline are roughly in line with each other as they should be.

So the manga doesnt have to retcon a vital plot point, the events of Resurrection F don't have to be wildly different and their doesn't have to be two different levels of power between the two even though they're based on the same outline.

It's being made to be way too complicated just because one detail was perhaps appropriately left out of a very rushed fight.

The manga implies that the power gap between SSG and SS Goku is massive since Tokitobashi doesn't work on SSG Goku. It's just like the difference between SSB and SSB x10.

[TheMikado]

Only very briefly were the narrator implies that Goku and Vegeta teamed up to take down Golden Freeza.

Do you remember which chapter that was?

Chapter 5, Page 8, Panel 7

Yeah I remember that now, there's no specifics at all we have no idea what forms they used, whether they worked together, etc. Also I like how the manga specifically says SSB puts them at a level close to that of the Gods. Basically inplying they aren't far off from Beerus in SSB, which is basically opposite of SSBxKKx10...

[Bullza]

The manga implies that the power gap between SSG and SS Goku is massive since Tokitobashi doesn't work on SSG Goku.

That's why I said that perhaps the retcon could simply be that turning into a Super Saiyan God now gives a bigger boost than it appeared to give in the Battle of Gods movie.

I don't think there's a tremendous difference though, Super Saiyan Goku and a serious suppressed Hit were fighting evenly whereas Super Saiyan God Goku was clearly more powerful but not to the extent that a punch and a blast was causing Hit severe damage.

But yes there does seem to be a bigger gap than the "insignificant" difference that was mentioned in the movie.

However in the anime when Super Saiyan God Goku was fighting Beerus he kept getting more powerful as the fight went on which wasnt mentioned in the movie but what if when Goku was angry and turned into it the second time he was stronger than he was the first time to the extent where the gap between it and Super Saiyan is similar to the gap that the manga suggests it to be.

[Chiki]

Considering SSB in the manga (assuming the 6-10-15 scale which works perfectly in the manga, we don't need to assume that it was retconned in the manga) is around an 8 which is a x1.33333 boost, it is implausible that SSG is a big boost over the BoG SSG. SSB would make him way stronger than Beerus.

Let's recap your view of power levels in the manga. According to these quotes, you think that Base Saiyans are SSG level and that SSG in the manga is stronger:

Like in all other versions, he DID absorb that power

the retcon could simply be that turning into a Super Saiyan God now gives a bigger boost than it appeared to give in the Battle of Gods movie.

Now let's recap my view: Base Goku and Vegeta have no SSG power whatsoever, DBZ power levels are not retconned, and Goku used SSG instead of SBG against Frieza in RoF.

The problem here is that you fail to understand that your view is several times more complicated than mine.

Assuming that Base Goku and Vegeta don't have SSG power in Base works perfectly and I honestly don't understand why you are so obsessed with trying to prove it wrong at every turn. Cabba is as strong as Goku and Vegeta in Base, which is still very impressive, but it still explains why Vegeta said he should be ashamed to come to the tournament with his power level, which he never would have said if he were SSG level. Piccolo never got a giant power boost. Frost never trains, but fights bad guys in his world, and that's why he's still weaker than Super Saiyan Goku but Piccolo can keep up with him.

Your view (that Base Saiyans have SSG power) makes everything FAR MORE complicated that you don't bother to explain because, for some inexplicable reason, you don't think that explaining these things overcomplicates your view:

1. Explaining how Cabba gained SSG power in Base without training with Whis
2. Why Vegeta said Cabba shouldn't have shown his face in the tournament despite getting Cabba having SSG power in Base
3. How Frost got stronger than SSG Base Goku without training at all
4. How Piccolo kept up with an opponent stronger than SSG Base Goku
5. Why Buu got hyped up for the tournament so much
Potentially, 6. Retconning the 6-10-15 scale by saying that it no longer applies.

You might have an answer for each of them. You might even be able to explain each of them. But the fact that you have to give an answer, true or false, for each of these problems already overcomplicates your view. I don't have to explain any of these things, because none of these are a problem for my view. Here is the single problem for my view:

1. Why did Goku not use SSG in RoF if he has SSG power in Base?

You have multiple problems and I have one. Therefore, your view is more complicated than mine, so you have no right to accuse me of overcomplicating anything. All these facts have to be explained in your view, which makes your view a million times more complicated than mine.

====

I'm starting to think that the 6-10-15 scale is still true in the manga and that Kaioken was just a Toei addition to make it more epic. Toriyama probably never intended it; otherwise, he would've told Toyotaro to put Kaioken in the manga.

[Cabba]

Three Super continuities:
Anime BoG and RoF = Non-canon
Movie BoG and RoF = Canon (Toriyama had the most involvement with this)
Manga BoG and RoF = Non-canon
Canon simply means that the continuity is the right one to represent the DBS series. Non-canon continuities still exist.

Alright fair enough, i misinterpreted it when you said they were retconned
I'm just arguing that there is continuity between them in the sense that the main plot elements remain the same, little details to nitpick about is what changed. They are retellings after all, but the most important concepts remain the same
Isn't that what akira is doing anyway? he provides the main plot and characters designs and Toyotaro and toei emblish them and work around it

There is a panel in which SSG Goku is right behind Base Goku, right?

Where? in FnF? i dont recall this, i just checked it as well, would you mind posting said panel

The incredibly obvious implication here is that Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base. That's why Toyotaro put it there, and anyone who says otherwise can't read a manga.

They never made the distinction on the movie, beerus just said Goku absorbed the SSG powers in his body, whether he is able to access them in his base form or as SSG(red) we´ll see as the anime/manga progresses, I'm not set on one theory yet, my opinion at the moment is very volatile and subject to change on that

But in the Super manga, we notice a couple different things (Goku loses SSG power against Beerus and does not fight him in Base, plus he can transform into SSG). This means that Goku has NOT absorbed his SSG power into his Base.

I dont think that was the point, the point was goku absorbed the SSG power into himself they never emphasized his base form this was just shown at the time, the only difference is in how Goku channels this power, does he do it in his base/ss form or does he as a SSG, dont forget the movie showed goku transforming momentary to SSG as well. The movie showed something and the manga did it the other way, it could be a case of artistic freedom or it could be that they are gonna make a a return of the SSG form. But he main concept/idea remains the same: Goku absorbed the SSG red shrine into himself, this fact remains true across the three formats: Movie, Manga and Anime

We have a logical contradiction. Goku has absorbed his SSG power into his Base, but he also has not. Therefore, there must have been a retcon. And we have to pick the newer option because it represents Toyotaro's most recent thinking. Therefore, Goku can no longer use SSG power in Base and the RoF manga has been retconned.
If you don't understand this then I'm simply not going to reply to you again

I understand what you are saying just fine, i feel however is too soon to be certain, right now I'm 50/50 either way. I want too see more manga chapters and anime episodes to be sure
If the SSG makes a return however, Goku and Vegeta base/ss form wont be Majin Sagan Tier. God power or not their base form definitely had some major improvement

Toriyama already said we wouldn't see SSG again, so he obviously changed his mind too!

SSG is just a transformation that was succeeded by SSB, goku absorbing SSG powers into his body (note i did not say base) is important plot concept
I'm open to both outcomes, its too early to be certain whether or not SSG will make a comeback, personally i would like to see vegetas SSG form as well

This has a really easy explanation. SSG Goku is a little bit stronger than Base-SSG Goku in BoG, as Beerus stated, so he needed to transform to that to absorb the blast. It's that simple.

Whos to say this couldn't be the case either? I'm not ruling out that possibility, as i said, its too early to say either way. I would like to see how Goku vs Trunks and Black fight plays out in the manga and more super episodes

[ekrolo2]

If the SSG makes a return however, Goku and Vegeta base/ss form wont be Majin Sagan Tier. God power or not their base for definitely had some major improvement

I doubt it, Piccolo's still stronger than them in Base Form given his performance against Frost in the manga, a continuity where he's treated like worthless fodder with no mention of any training with him and Gohan or any noticeable strength improvement. Their base forms in the manga are probably stronger than Freeza by now, but I wouldn't put them above early Android Saga Saiyan's, post-fusion Kamiccolo at very best. Gohan's whole development from the anime also isn't present in the manga where they talk about him twice and there's nothing on him training unlike the anime where Goku thinks he's slacking off but finds out he's not afterward. Not in the manga.