DBZ vs DBS - Animation [Comparing Objectively]

[Hit!!]

I never understood why scheduling is an issue with a show that NOBODY asked Toei to rush it.

There are more rights holders than just Toei. We know Bandai were after an anime back in 2009, but Toriyama didn't want to get involved, so they produced Kai instead.

The show's a marketing tool as it's always been. If Toei were under pressure from Shueisha or Bandai to capitalise on the success of the previous films, then what can they do?

"Sorry, no can do! You'll have to wait!" -- Look at the sales figures since Super started airing. They're higher than they've been for years. The show's doing exactly what it was created to do.

Unfortunately, as long as it keeps selling, it doesn't really matter how good the series is visually. If it sells, it sells. There's no incentive to really change (although they are trying).

Viewing it from a strictly business point of view, you might be right. But even so, long term it is better for them to make the series as good as possible, because when the series is shit, eventually its merchandise sales will start to drop, because people will start losing interest in the series. Its not the same as before, when the last anime was GT, because Bandai was relying on DBZ fans that bought merchandise because of nostalgia or the games.

[sintzu]

We know Bandai were after an anime back in 2009, but Toriyama didn't want to get involved.

Is there any more details about it ? like why he didn't want to be part of it ?

It would've been interesting to see what he would've done back then.

[Ajay]

We know Bandai were after an anime back in 2009, but Toriyama didn't want to get involved.

Is there any more details about it ? like why he didn't want to be part of it ?

It would've been interesting to see what he would've done back then.

Nothing particularly detailed, I'm afraid. You can hear what Torishima had to say here (6:30 if the time stamp doesn't work).

[sintzu]

We know Bandai were after an anime back in 2009, but Toriyama didn't want to get involved.

Is there any more details about it ? like why he didn't want to be part of it ?

It would've been interesting to see what he would've done back then.

Nothing particularly detailed, I'm afraid. You can hear what Torishima had to say here (6:30 if the time stamp doesn't work).

I'm actually happy now that he refused cause we wouldn't have gotten Kai or the new English dub.

[Shuby]

We know Bandai were after an anime back in 2009, but Toriyama didn't want to get involved.

Is there any more details about it ? like why he didn't want to be part of it ?

It would've been interesting to see what he would've done back then.

Nothing particularly detailed, I'm afraid. You can hear what Torishima had to say here (6:30 if the time stamp doesn't work).

2009 would have been a good year to start a new dragon ball show unfortunately Toriyama refused.

[Pannaliciour]

Dbz has better animation when fighting

Super has better animation when NOT fighting

GT just doesn't have the x factor, its hard to say why but I think it is the atmosphere.

Btw something I notice: why isn't there any blitzing ( disappear and reappear again, a speed feat) in Super? Dbz did this very nice.

[Nejishiki]

Well, going by the choreography of the orginal manga, and I'll use Cell arc as the primary example, characters didn't blitz so often, but sparingly. Dragon Ball Super has a knack for directing fights as if they were going panel to panel instead of taking liberties as the anime did. Goku and Cell blitzed considerably in the anime, yet in the manga, it was only done when called for, such as Cell proving he could match Instantaneous Movement if he tried and then left alone after that. So, I take it as the director not considering it when it's not mentioned in the outline.

[The Monkey King]

I'm just waiting for a DBS episode to have animation on par with Goku vs Cell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs08CHm ... OWUXwzZG1g

From 9:43 onwards

Meanwhile DBS has given us some of the worst fights in DB history such as Goku vs Beerus (ep 5) and Goku vs Botamo.

[nite_jay]

Meanwhile DBS has given us some of the worst fights in DB history such as Goku vs Beerus (ep 5) and Goku vs Botamo.

Goku vs. Botamo was pathetic but I thought Goku vs. Beerus on Blu-Ray was a pretty ok.

[cuartas]

I hate people' reaction towards the show and the endless Z VS SUPER comparisons......Not because z has more good moments but because of people' negativity. Going against a new show and literally attacking every episode when most fans don't know anything about animation or how they produce it.

I hate that cliche phrase.

Following that logic:
-You can't criticise a full bugged AAA or even indie game if you don't know anything about software development (That's my area)
-You can't criticise a shitty movie or a bad actor if you don't know anything about acting or film direction
-You can't criticise any structural problems of any building if you don't know anything about construction
-You can't criticise political decisions because you don't know anything about politics
-You can't criticise a bad soccer player because you never played professional soccer
-You can't criticise (or even to sue) a plastic surgeon that did a bad job because you don't know anything about surgery or medicine

And the list goes to the infinite

This applies to comparisons as well:
-You can't compare COD black opps 3 vs COD Modern warfare that was superior
-You can't compare movie 2 vs movie 1 or the acting of a specific person in those movies
-You can't compare this building falling down with previous projects from the same company that works fine
-You can't compare this president mandate with the previous one
-You can't compare the new striker with another one your team had and did more goals
-You can't compare the quality of two doctors

And blah blah blah

In other words 95% of the people of this world can't criticise or make comparisons of previous works done nicely of something just because they never worked in that specific area.

Well done, this turned into an elitist, discriminating and a "you're ignorant, I'm superior" discussion, that's why I had a problem in the animation catalogue thread, because I mentioned the words "common people" and boom, someone jumped in the same fashion as you, and probably ajay did that before in a more "softer" way.

I'm just gonna say: stop, please stop, anyone have the right to criticise DBS and compare with DBZ, hell even DB or GT even if they don't have a full understanding of the animation subject or toei situation.

Knowing or not knowing doesn't change (or mitigate) the fact that super animation/art/coreography sucks in the most part

[Ajay]

Anyone can criticise anything, but how worthwhile is criticism if it comes from a place of ignorance? That's the only thing people mean by that.

You don't have to be an animator to criticise animation, but knowing a bit about the industry and what makes for solid work is going to allow you to express your opinion far more eloquently than someone without that.

Stop with the victim complex. Nobody's saying anything like what you're describing. Strawmans certainly don't help.

You were rightly called out in the supervisor thread for making absurd generalisations based on a lack of understanding. Nobody said you weren't entitled to your opinion -- in fact, I said you absolutely were, but it would be great if you considered the information in front of you, rather than trying to call people hypocrites. If you still don't like something after understanding it, then that's fine. Nobody's asking for any more than that. Echo chambers are boring.

Super's animation isn't any good for the most part. Okay, sure, everyone knows that, but how much worthwhile conversation are you going to get from that if you just stop there? Surely it's better to clue yourself up on why things are the way they are and talk about that instead.

[Shuby]

LMAO anyone is free to dislike something but it's always better to know what's wrong behind the scenes and let's be honest literally no one is saying Super is better or even close to Z so you know.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Both series are not well animated shows. Majority of time you'll find Z to be lackluster in terms of animation. Even the former's best has same problems, even with the better schedule. DBZ was very conservative with animation.

But based on my observation in this forum is that all you guys are looking for is well drawn character models. But a well drawn character model is just a added bonus, which doesn't require for the story to be good, just like DBZ was. Back then Seigasha and Shindo Studio were the only two studios that had good supervisors and key animators. Super has Karasawa and Tate.

What Super really needs is more movement, which cannot happen due to bad schedule and low allotted drawings.

[Avok]

Both series are not well animated shows. Majority of time you'll find Z to be lackluster in terms of animation. Even the former's best has same problems, even with the better schedule. DBZ was very conservative with animation.

But based on my observation in this forum is that all you guys are looking for is well drawn character models. But a well drawn character model is just a added bonus, which doesn't require for the story to be good, just like DBZ was. Back then Seigasha and Shindo Studio were the only two studios that had good supervisors and key animators. Super has Karasawa and Tate.

What Super really needs is more movement, which cannot happen due to bad schedule and low allotted drawings.

You can have good visuals without having sakuga (in like extremely well-done animation) everytime.

[cuartas]

Stop with the victim complex. Nobody's saying anything like what you're describing. Strawmans certainly don't help.

Ok so Mazingerdestro said that he hates people' reaction towards the show and the endless Z VS SUPER comparisons due to Going against a new show and literally attacking every episode when most fans don't know anything about animation or how they produce it.

implying that this thread is worthless if you have no idea of what's happening behind the scenes, simply put, if you are a "common person" making an opinion.

So I followed and applied that logic to a lot of subjects that fits in that logic, but basically can be applied in everything.
The conclusion is that this world is filled with worthless opinions despite they are completely fair to say just having a general impression of the issue, because you don't need more that that to perceive that something is good or bad.

But Mazingerdestro is simply implying that this perception have no value at all, so any opinion and comparison of super vs z is biased, ignorant or stupidly formulated and you have to shut up (basically 90% of fans) unless you know about this

Only animators can criticise and make a worth opinion about animation, software developers about software development and philosophers about philosophy, in other words, you're being elitist and discriminating people opinions based on their level of knowledge.
This is what I interpreted from Mazingerdestro comment, call me how you want, victim or strawman, I don't care, I'm not that important, but man, you're just throwing the majority of the fanbase's opinions to the thrash bin, so don't try to say that "I am entitled to make an opinion" when that's not the case with Mazingerdestro and the other guy in your thread and you with the "worthwhile opinions", at least that's my perception in kanzenshuu, you're just filtering opinions in worthwhile and worthless categories.

I have something to say about ep5, what would've happen if you turn the tables and the 90% of fans knows all the necessary about DBS animation wise, just like you that seems more comprehensive about this? I think toei could've never corrected that episode in blu-ray version, because I'm pretty sure they wouldn't ever get the same pressure from fans to do things right or "acceptable". Ok, bye

[ChronoTwigger]

Anyone can criticise anything, but how worthwhile is criticism if it comes from a place of ignorance? That's the only thing people mean by that.

You don't have to be an animator to criticise animation, but knowing a bit about the industry and what makes for solid work is going to allow you to express your opinion far more eloquently than someone without that.

Opinion is VERY different from personal taste.

A TECHNICAL critique (opinion) must be supported by a knowledge. But personal tastes aren't. Despite HOW LARGE is your knowledge on a given field (mine is writing), you cannot win against a personal taste. So a novel of mine can be technically perfect, but a silly romance of a 12 y.o. that barely know grammar can win billions of hearts.

I play old GBA games, and I almost hate everthing produced after PS1. They are better games? Bigger games? Wider games? I don't mind. I play River City Ransom again and again, with the grandtotal of TWO sprites. I whistle the track while walking. Try to win against me talking of teraflops, billions of polygons, years of development, uncanny routines and in the end I'll nod and go play River City Ransom.

Maybe in the end you get passionate enough to get proficient in the theme, but this knowledge will be usefull for other techincal apprentices, not final users, you'll NEVER get authority over a personal taste.

[Ajay]

Opinion is VERY different from personal taste.

Maybe in the end you get passionate enough to get proficient in the theme, but this knowledge will be usefull for other techincal apprentices, not final users, you'll NEVER get authority over a personal taste.

I'm not saying anything to the contrary. I'm never going to argue against personal taste. I don't really care what anyone prefers, but if they're going to attempt to throw damning criticism at something, it should at least come from a place of understanding.

You wouldn't criticise a Picasso for not being realistic, would you? If someone ever said that, you'd look at them like they were mad -- "He's not going for the realism, so how is that useful?" The same goes for criticism levied at Tate, for example. "It's not on-model and they don't move realistically". Of course, but he's not going for that, so that's not really very helpful. Understanding Picasso means you can talk about how good or bad it is within the context of what it aims for. Maybe you don't think he did a good job of coming up with an interesting composition; that's interesting to talk about. With Tate, maybe you think his work is too smeary at times, to the point where it's hard to follow what's going on. Again, absolutely fine because you're criticising within the context of what he's aiming for.

That's all I ask for. If neither styles are to your personal taste because you simply dislike that particular style, then that's fine, too. Not everyone likes Picasso, not everyone like Tate, but whatever criticism is thrown at them should at least come from a place of understanding.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm just waiting for a DBS episode to have animation on par with Goku vs Cell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs08CHm ... OWUXwzZG1g

From 9:43 onwards

Meanwhile DBS has given us some of the worst fights in DB history such as Goku vs Beerus (ep 5) and Goku vs Botamo.

You do know that the best portion of the Goku/Cell fight was done by a completely different studio. Studio Cockpit.

[Michie]

True but that's all Toei's fault and i feel like you can't blame fans who don't understand the how the production works because most modern anime shows blow away what Super has to offer in terms of fight choreographs and nice animation even for a running series like Naruto and you would think a franchise as popular as Dragon ball would get more attention and care. On the other hand i don't think the fights in Super will be quite remembered and have the same impact Z had with few exceptions for expample Hit vs Goku , a lot of fights especially in the Golden Frieza arc feel lifeless.

It's not solely Toei's fault. If Shueisha want a new TV show, then Toei kinda have to listen to them, even if their studio isn't in the right place to do it properly. It's easy to point the finger, but Toei are doing everything they can with this awful situation. Whether you agree with the patchwork fixes or not is a more interesting conversation to have than the, say, "Toei sucks, give the show to Madhouse!" rhetoric that gets thrown around.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone in my post, but I absolutely can blame fans if their complaints come from a misunderstanding of what's going on with the series, or even how the series functions compared to other anime. It's absolutely fine to compare to Super to Naruto, One Piece, and Fairy Tail -- those are all shows that run all year round. What I can't abide are those who talk about Hunter x Hunter, One-Punch Man, or Fate. They're totally different production environments; you just can't compare them.

I try and inform people about Super's production because it actually produces interesting conversation. That's far more beneficial that overblown hyperbole from upset fans who don't understand why things are the way they are. If you're running around screaming "Toei don't give a shit, the animators don't care, this is awful", then you're doing something wrong. It's possible to criticise the show from an informed point of view, and that's all I ever ask.

Super's a really poorly put together series. It really is. I'm not ever going to pretend it isn't, but I'm not willing to talk about it shrouded in hyperbole and misinformation. God knows there's enough of that in this fandom already.

HxH was a long running anime. It ran for 3 years. While working on HxH madhouse worked on other anime so they were busy as well.

[Ajay]

HxH was a long running anime. It ran for 3 years. While working on HxH madhouse worked on other anime so they were busy as well.

The difference is that Madhouse rely almost entirely on freelancers and outsourcing. They don't work in the same way that most studios do. Morever, Hunter x Hunter may have been a long anime, but it was still produced with a finite number of episodes with plenty of pre-production. That's a very different beast to your average longrunning show.