DBZ vs DBS - Animation [Comparing Objectively]

[Mazingerdestro]

I hate people' reaction towards the show and the endless Z VS SUPER comparisons......Not because z has more good moments but because of people' negativity. Going against a new show and literally attacking every episode when most fans don't know anything about animation or how they produce it.

I hate that cliche phrase.

Following that logic:
-You can't criticise a full bugged AAA or even indie game if you don't know anything about software development (That's my area)
-You can't criticise a shitty movie or a bad actor if you don't know anything about acting or film direction
-You can't criticise any structural problems of any building if you don't know anything about construction
-You can't criticise political decisions because you don't know anything about politics
-You can't criticise a bad soccer player because you never played professional soccer
-You can't criticise (or even to sue) a plastic surgeon that did a bad job because you don't know anything about surgery or medicine

And the list goes to the infinite

This applies to comparisons as well:
-You can't compare COD black opps 3 vs COD Modern warfare that was superior
-You can't compare movie 2 vs movie 1 or the acting of a specific person in those movies
-You can't compare this building falling down with previous projects from the same company that works fine
-You can't compare this president mandate with the previous one
-You can't compare the new striker with another one your team had and did more goals
-You can't compare the quality of two doctors

And blah blah blah

In other words 95% of the people of this world can't criticise or make comparisons of previous works done nicely of something just because they never worked in that specific area.

Well done, this turned into an elitist, discriminating and a "you're ignorant, I'm superior" discussion, that's why I had a problem in the animation catalogue thread, because I mentioned the words "common people" and boom, someone jumped in the same fashion as you, and probably ajay did that before in a more "softer" way.

I'm just gonna say: stop, please stop, anyone have the right to criticise DBS and compare with DBZ, hell even DB or GT even if they don't have a full understanding of the animation subject or toei situation.

Knowing or not knowing doesn't change (or mitigate) the fact that super animation/art/coreography sucks in the most part

Obviously you have the right to talk about whatever you want. I can't stop you and I don't think is fair stopping someone from saying his/her opinion (I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings with my comment). However, without considering some facts you sound like a person that comments just to dislike something.
Ignoring the obvious "if you hate it why watch it?" you always have to consider the differences between animation.
For example saying "Super's animation is awful compare to one punch man" sounds weird because you compare 2 different things, a series with 12 episodes and one with 51+, or "why Resurrection f looks better than Golden Frieza arc in Super".
I think you got my point.
Obviously my comment was not about "Well done, this turned into an elitist, discriminating and a "you're ignorant, I'm superior" discussion, that's why I had a problem in the animation catalogue thread, because I mentioned the words "common people" and boom" and I can't understand why you thought of something like that, especially when I do not consider myself an expert and most of the time I ask for tips from people here. My comment meant that sometimes people have to consider other factors before commenting and not been so hard to a project. Again, you have every right to ignore my comment since it wasn't referring to you but it was more about the people on other websites that are harsh without caring about the show's production and they just reply with "man Toei doesn't give a ffffffuck"

Also I am not from space, I know animation is Super has issues

Also I don't understand how my comment got misinterpreted like that. My goal was to say that just saying "super sucks" without understanding why animation issues exists, is meaningless. We can all stay together and scream super animation sucks forever. However, will this help? Instead, isn't it better to discuss why or show some sympathy for the studio's work? As a person I can't blame someone for trying and failing. I am ok with mediocre animation as long as I know that Toei is trying to give us something good.

[MCDaveG]

True but that's all Toei's fault and i feel like you can't blame fans who don't understand the how the production works because most modern anime shows blow away what Super has to offer in terms of fight choreographs and nice animation even for a running series like Naruto and you would think a franchise as popular as Dragon ball would get more attention and care. On the other hand i don't think the fights in Super will be quite remembered and have the same impact Z had with few exceptions for expample Hit vs Goku , a lot of fights especially in the Golden Frieza arc feel lifeless.

It's not solely Toei's fault. If Shueisha want a new TV show, then Toei kinda have to listen to them, even if their studio isn't in the right place to do it properly. It's easy to point the finger, but Toei are doing everything they can with this awful situation. Whether you agree with the patchwork fixes or not is a more interesting conversation to have than the, say, "Toei sucks, give the show to Madhouse!" rhetoric that gets thrown around.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone in my post, but I absolutely can blame fans if their complaints come from a misunderstanding of what's going on with the series, or even how the series functions compared to other anime. It's absolutely fine to compare to Super to Naruto, One Piece, and Fairy Tail -- those are all shows that run all year round. What I can't abide are those who talk about Hunter x Hunter, One-Punch Man, or Fate. They're totally different production environments; you just can't compare them.

I try and inform people about Super's production because it actually produces interesting conversation. That's far more beneficial that overblown hyperbole from upset fans who don't understand why things are the way they are. If you're running around screaming "Toei don't give a shit, the animators don't care, this is awful", then you're doing something wrong. It's possible to criticise the show from an informed point of view, and that's all I ever ask.

Yeah you're right it's unfortunate the higher ups rushed things. It really is stupid to compare Super with shows like One punch man where really talented artists worked and the production was healthy although comparing Super with long running series like Naruto or Bleach(until it stopped) is a different thing.

I think that this is not totally valid. As I see your points of view and being apologetic about the whole process as a big fans, the whole thing is unnaceptable.
As a fan, I am first and foremost customer and the TV show is product. Seriously, as a customer, I don't give a damn if animators had it hard, or something was amis and poor editors had it bad with low wages,
when I am looking on Blu-ray box set with 13 episodes of subpar show for 153 dollars...
I really don't give a fuck and as a customer, I am pretty much pissed off, that anyone in their right minds was able to put this product not only out, but on the shelf for such money.
And I really don't blame fans for being nasty towards the series and being ''ignorant'' about inbetween frames and animation process, because it is not their duty to be!
You simply can't defend the series as a product on the market.

[HybridSaiyan]

The problem with Super is that it does a terrible job of portraying the level of power the characters should have. It's just your typical, boring and weak fighting with no thrill and speed. Plus, it just aint consistent enough to be enjoyable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZO-5Yol7M

The hand to hand combat here captures the power perfectly. Super has failed to do this.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The problem with Super is that it does a terrible job of portraying the level of power the characters should have. It's just your typical, boring and weak fighting with no thrill and speed. Plus, it just aint consistent enough to be enjoyable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZO-5Yol7M

The hand to hand combat here captures the power perfectly. Super has failed to do this.

How does power levels relates to animation? A.K.A the topic of this thread.

[HybridSaiyan]

The problem with Super is that it does a terrible job of portraying the level of power the characters should have. It's just your typical, boring and weak fighting with no thrill and speed. Plus, it just aint consistent enough to be enjoyable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZO-5Yol7M

The hand to hand combat here captures the power perfectly. Super has failed to do this.

How does power levels relates to animation? A.K.A the topic of this thread.

Well, the animation should be able to show how powerful these characters are through the fighting, no?

[Brian4205]

The problem with Super is that it does a terrible job of portraying the level of power the characters should have. It's just your typical, boring and weak fighting with no thrill and speed. Plus, it just aint consistent enough to be enjoyable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZO-5Yol7M

The hand to hand combat here captures the power perfectly. Super has failed to do this.

How does power levels relates to animation? A.K.A the topic of this thread.

Well, the animation should be able to show how powerful these characters are through the fighting, no?

You mean like when Goku and Beerus punches destroy several small planetoids, and threaten the entire universe? Or like when copy Vegeta punches Goku creating a crater below him? Or like when Goku's KKx10 Kamehameha destroys Vados shield causing her to remark about how powerful is, or even when Vegeta punches frost so hard that he breaks the same shield? The fighting hasn't changed that much, in fact there's less repeated frames and less lame shots of nothing with sound effects on it to allude to characters fighting so fast we can't see them. Both Z and Super are about on par with each other on quality, Z just had slightly more dynamic editing. Super is not perfect but this selective memory and looking back at Z like some untouchable pinnacle of perfection is really starting to annoy me. Every posted video of old Z footage makes me cringe, guys take off the rose tinted glasses, half these clips are 90% bad with 10% some interesting well animated visuals. Goku vs cell is not that great, neither is the filler fight between Goku Vegeta and Buuhan. Are they better than what we've got in Super? Mostly, but I really love that Goku vs Hit fight, I personally would re watch that over any fight in Z. I can always tell what's happening in it, it's got some great moments in it, and it's very fluid, with some nice music. I love it. Z never had a fight like that for me, the fights drag on too long, and never lived up to it's manga counterpart. Goku vs Freeza has some great moments, but it also has it's terrible moments. Goku vs Botamo, for me, is no worse than Gohan vs 100% Freeza, or Gohan vs Vegeta near the end of the Freeza saga. We like to think back on the best of Z, and when Z was good, it was great, but you had to slog through a lot of shit to get there. Super has had far less of a slog for me, so I really do think it comes down to preference vs nostalgia. I like the more fluid, closer to the manga approach of recent Super fights. Trunks vs Black, as short as it was, deserves to be remembered fondly, Gotenks untransformed vs Fat Buu does not. Is that a fair comparison? Hell no! but it's just as valid as all these other comparisons. I plan on buying Super when it comes to the states, I hope you guys can find the will to give super a less biased chance and start enjoying it, and if you don't, maybe stop making such ridiculous comparisons to older dragonball content, because this is just getting silly.

[Avok]

You mean like when Goku and Beerus punches destroy several small planetoids, and threaten the entire universe? Or like when copy Vegeta punches Goku creating a crater below him? Or like when Goku's KKx10 Kamehameha destroys Vados shield causing her to remark about how powerful is, or even when Vegeta punches frost so hard that he breaks the same shield?

That's not it. You could say they're moving at the speed of light, but if the animation/directing fails to portrait that then you're doing nothing. Super has failed to show the level of the fights. The land-wrecking blasts and universe-shattering punches lack strenght and weight, I don't think you can argue against that.

I plan on buying Super when it comes to the states, I hope you guys can find the will to give super a less biased chance and start enjoying it, and if you don't, maybe stop making such ridiculous comparisons to older dragonball content, because this is just getting silly.

That's a pretty defensive stand man. I think the comparisons are pretty fair.

[Bansho64]

Super has had far less of a slog for me, so I really do think it comes down to preference vs nostalgia. I like the more fluid, closer to the manga approach of recent Super fights.

I agree that both series have a lot of badly animated episodes. I just believe Z's worst and best is better than Super's worst and their best. See here. Those clips do have some weird art in them but the animation was good for a lot of those clips. But I do understand the different circumstances. I understand that the Dragon Ball franchise was outsourced to many studios back in its heyday and I understand the different schedules the animators had. It's for those reasons that I try and give Super slack sometimes. I don't hold any bias towards either series because I haven't even been a fan of the franchise for 10 years. People don't always dislike things because of nostalgia or biases. Some people just like different things. No hostility here, I'm just saying that we all like different things

[Brian4205]

Super has had far less of a slog for me, so I really do think it comes down to preference vs nostalgia. I like the more fluid, closer to the manga approach of recent Super fights.

I agree that both series have a lot of badly animated episodes. I just believe Z's worst and best is better than Super's worst and their best. See here. Those clips do have some weird art in them but the animation was good for a lot of those clips. But I do understand the different circumstances. I understand that the Dragon Ball franchise was outsourced to many studios back in its heyday and I understand the different schedules the animators had. It's for those reasons that I try and give Super slack sometimes. I don't hold any bias towards either series because I haven't even been a fan of the franchise for 10 years. People don't always dislike things because of nostalgia or biases. Some people just like different things. No hostility here, I'm just saying that we all like different things

Respect.

[saiyanvegetable]

How does power levels relates to animation? A.K.A the topic of this thread.

Well, the animation should be able to show how powerful these characters are through the fighting, no?

You mean like when Goku and Beerus punches destroy several small planetoids, and threaten the entire universe? Or like when copy Vegeta punches Goku creating a crater below him? Or like when Goku's KKx10 Kamehameha destroys Vados shield causing her to remark about how powerful is, or even when Vegeta punches frost so hard that he breaks the same shield? The fighting hasn't changed that much, in fact there's less repeated frames and less lame shots of nothing with sound effects on it to allude to characters fighting so fast we can't see them. Both Z and Super are about on par with each other on quality, Z just had slightly more dynamic editing. Super is not perfect but this selective memory and looking back at Z like some untouchable pinnacle of perfection is really starting to annoy me. Every posted video of old Z footage makes me cringe, guys take off the rose tinted glasses, half these clips are 90% bad with 10% some interesting well animated visuals. Goku vs cell is not that great, neither is the filler fight between Goku Vegeta and Buuhan. Are they better than what we've got in Super? Mostly, but I really love that Goku vs Hit fight, I personally would re watch that over any fight in Z. I can always tell what's happening in it, it's got some great moments in it, and it's very fluid, with some nice music. I love it. Z never had a fight like that for me, the fights drag on too long, and never lived up to it's manga counterpart. Goku vs Freeza has some great moments, but it also has it's terrible moments. Goku vs Botamo, for me, is no worse than Gohan vs 100% Freeza, or Gohan vs Vegeta near the end of the Freeza saga. We like to think back on the best of Z, and when Z was good, it was great, but you had to slog through a lot of shit to get there. Super has had far less of a slog for me, so I really do think it comes down to preference vs nostalgia. I like the more fluid, closer to the manga approach of recent Super fights. Trunks vs Black, as short as it was, deserves to be remembered fondly, Gotenks untransformed vs Fat Buu does not. Is that a fair comparison? Hell no! but it's just as valid as all these other comparisons. I plan on buying Super when it comes to the states, I hope you guys can find the will to give super a less biased chance and start enjoying it, and if you don't, maybe stop making such ridiculous comparisons to older dragonball content, because this is just getting silly.

I tried slogging through that mess of a paragraph, I really did, but it's about as abysmal as trying to sit through almost every one of Super's "fights".

[Sonicjamareiz]

Well, the animation should be able to show how powerful these characters are through the fighting, no?

You mean like when Goku and Beerus punches destroy several small planetoids, and threaten the entire universe? Or like when copy Vegeta punches Goku creating a crater below him? Or like when Goku's KKx10 Kamehameha destroys Vados shield causing her to remark about how powerful is, or even when Vegeta punches frost so hard that he breaks the same shield? The fighting hasn't changed that much, in fact there's less repeated frames and less lame shots of nothing with sound effects on it to allude to characters fighting so fast we can't see them. Both Z and Super are about on par with each other on quality, Z just had slightly more dynamic editing. Super is not perfect but this selective memory and looking back at Z like some untouchable pinnacle of perfection is really starting to annoy me. Every posted video of old Z footage makes me cringe, guys take off the rose tinted glasses, half these clips are 90% bad with 10% some interesting well animated visuals. Goku vs cell is not that great, neither is the filler fight between Goku Vegeta and Buuhan. Are they better than what we've got in Super? Mostly, but I really love that Goku vs Hit fight, I personally would re watch that over any fight in Z. I can always tell what's happening in it, it's got some great moments in it, and it's very fluid, with some nice music. I love it. Z never had a fight like that for me, the fights drag on too long, and never lived up to it's manga counterpart. Goku vs Freeza has some great moments, but it also has it's terrible moments. Goku vs Botamo, for me, is no worse than Gohan vs 100% Freeza, or Gohan vs Vegeta near the end of the Freeza saga. We like to think back on the best of Z, and when Z was good, it was great, but you had to slog through a lot of shit to get there. Super has had far less of a slog for me, so I really do think it comes down to preference vs nostalgia. I like the more fluid, closer to the manga approach of recent Super fights. Trunks vs Black, as short as it was, deserves to be remembered fondly, Gotenks untransformed vs Fat Buu does not. Is that a fair comparison? Hell no! but it's just as valid as all these other comparisons. I plan on buying Super when it comes to the states, I hope you guys can find the will to give super a less biased chance and start enjoying it, and if you don't, maybe stop making such ridiculous comparisons to older dragonball content, because this is just getting silly.

I tried slogging through that mess of a paragraph, I really did, but it's about as abysmal as trying to sit through almost every one of Super's "fights".

I know a lot people seem to ignore you for some reasons idk... anyways was your comment even remotely necessary its ignorant and insulting for no reason at all.

[Hit!!]

I understand the schedule issues and the problems in the production staff. But unfortunately, 99% of the people viewing Super aren't animation connoisseurs and unfortunately, knowing that Super has a bad schedule will not erase the fact that it has very shit animation for the most part, which is sad. Because the favorite series of many people here is being ruined just because some companies can't get their shit together and think of a real solution to a problem which i really don't think should be that hard to solve.

I really don't want Super to be remembered as that series that had a really shitty animation, but it is what it is and it's reputation is already too hard to change.

[sintzu]

I really don't want Super to be remembered as that series that had a really shitty animation, but it is what it is and it's reputation is already too hard to change.

It'll also be remembered as that series with the bad writing and the uneven tone.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I know a lot people seem to ignore you for some reasons idk...

It's because no one can have a decent discussion with him without having him exaggeratedly bash Super to the point of exhaustion. No one likes to talk with a whiner.

[Brian4205]

I may have let my passion get the best of me. I've just really been enjoying super recently.

[VegettoEX]

I tried slogging through that mess of a paragraph, I really did, but it's about as abysmal as trying to sit through almost every one of Super's "fights".

You are in no particular position to be judging other folks' posts. If you feel something is out-of-line, better to use the built-in report function than to risk your own account's future.

[coola]

While i still don't like Super, it is mostly because of story and childish characters, animation isn't Toei fault, watching Crystal and Maho Precure, Toei can make really great animation, if it isn't binded by tight schedule

[Lujin_16]

While i still don't like Super, it is mostly because of story and childish characters, animation isn't Toei fault, watching Crystal and Maho Precure, Toei can make really great animation, if it isn't binded by tight schedule

Someone has not seen Dragonball Super goes back to the roots my friend and i like the mix of comedy and seriousness...And what is wrong with the story???

is not like the Cell saga and Boo saga the same concept a villain comes to earth to destroy everything..The future trunks arc is different maybe a little bit complicated but

it is something new and mysterious i mean we still do not know who Black Goku is

[sintzu]

Super goes back to the roots my friend.

The original wouldn't be as successful and influential as it is if it was anything like Super.

The original was a story, this is a merchandise commercial so they have nothing in common.

[coola]

While i still don't like Super, it is mostly because of story and childish characters, animation isn't Toei fault, watching Crystal and Maho Precure, Toei can make really great animation, if it isn't binded by tight schedule

Someone has not seen Dragonball Super goes back to the roots my friend and i like the mix of comedy and seriousness...And what is wrong with the story???

is not like the Cell saga and Boo saga the same concept a villain comes to earth to destroy everything..The future trunks arc is different maybe a little bit complicated but

it is something new and mysterious i mean we still do not know who Black Goku is

Story is one big fanfiction (Freeza coming back, and is able to gain God level tier in just 4 months, Future Trunks coming back) i like comedy, but Akira Toriyama comedy, not Toei comedy, with make characters unlikeable jerks or childish caricatures. I prefer manga, but anime still have place in my heart. We are 50 episodes in, and i have yet to feel same chill and excitement i had during DB/DBZ/DBGT moments.