Mystic and Super Saiyan... One last time

[Kishido]

Please try to give me a explanation for it.

We start with Z... Everthing was fine. Elder Kai told him to go Super Saiyan... Nothing happened instead he went ultimate and was surprised by it. If he could go Super Saiyan he would have turned so.

I will ignore GT

In BoG he suddenly was able to go both ultimate state and Super Saiyan... We have no clue why suddenly and what the difference is in this transformations... Contradicts Z a bit. I cannot see how potential unleashed is a form ala Super Saiyan...

Now in RoF he can't go/unlock ultimate and needs Super Saiyan... Ok cuz of lack of training I do not even ask for Super Saiyan 2.

But now the what if? If he trains and goes back to his Ultimate can he go still go Super Saiyan and as above would he be stronger cuz he needs it right now to become stronger?

If yes how is Z fitting into it. If Super Saiyan could push him even further why couldn't he transform? If he could he would have done it against Buutenks

[Kamiccolo9]

If people would actually read what the old Kaioshin says when he tells Gohan how to unlock his power, this wouldn't be a problem.

[Kishido]

If people would actually read what the old Kaioshin says when he tells Gohan how to unlock his power, this wouldn't be a problem.

So tell me please and again... I read the VIZ version twice and it says all the same thing.

I never will take potential unlocked as transformation. If it would be Gohannwiuld have a Namekian Guru potential unlocked state as well.

If he could go Super Saiyan why not doing so against Buutenks? And yeah now you will say cuz it won't make him stronger and even weaker... Which makes even less sense.

That's why I hate this power up. If it would be simply potential unlocked as in Namek with no changes of his transformations making him stronger would be no problem.

But not like this and how Old Kai said that he should try this Super Saiyan thing and nothing happened.

[ekrolo2]

If people would actually read what the old Kaioshin says when he tells Gohan how to unlock his power, this wouldn't be a problem.

So tell me please and again... I read the VIZ version twice and it says all the same thing.

I never will take potential unlocked as transformation. If it would be Gohannwiuld have a Namekian Guru potential unlocked state as well.

If he could go Super Saiyan why not doing so against Buutenks? And yeah now you will say cuz it won't make him stronger and even weaker... Which makes even less sense.

That's why I hate this power up. If it would be simply potential unlocked as in Namek with no changes of his transformations making him stronger would be no problem.

But not like this and how Old Kai said that he should try this Super Saiyan thing and nothing happened.

The problem is Super and GT mucking the whole debate up. In terms of the manga, Gohan's Potential Unleashed state is essentially all the power he would ever get and then some through various transformations made available to him in his base form. Meaning he can't power up anymore from that without either getting a whole new body (through SS4) or God Ki.

Its the same way how SS3 lets Goku use 100% of his body, except Gohan has access to a 100% of his bodies power in base, meaning transformations have nothing to give him any more. That's all a transformation is really: a way to access greater reservoirs of energy, reservoirs Gohan has access to in his base form completely.

[Kishido]

If people would actually read what the old Kaioshin says when he tells Gohan how to unlock his power, this wouldn't be a problem.

So tell me please and again... I read the VIZ version twice and it says all the same thing.

I never will take potential unlocked as transformation. If it would be Gohannwiuld have a Namekian Guru potential unlocked state as well.

If he could go Super Saiyan why not doing so against Buutenks? And yeah now you will say cuz it won't make him stronger and even weaker... Which makes even less sense.

That's why I hate this power up. If it would be simply potential unlocked as in Namek with no changes of his transformations making him stronger would be no problem.

But not like this and how Old Kai said that he should try this Super Saiyan thing and nothing happened.

The problem is Super and GT mucking the whole debate up. In terms of the manga, Gohan's Potential Unleashed state is essentially all the power he would ever get and then some through various transformations made available to him in his base form. Meaning he can't power up anymore from that without either getting a whole new body (through SS4) or God Ki.

Its the same way how SS3 lets Goku use 100% of his body, except Gohan has access to a 100% of his bodies power in base, meaning transformations have nothing to give him any more. That's all a transformation is really: a way to access greater reservoirs of energy, reservoirs Gohan has access to in his base form completely.

I would agree with you... But now sadly there is Super...

BoG was strange and the first question mark...

RoF told a bit how he lost his power and needs Super Saiyan... But this bring the question up what happens if he trains again... Can't he go Super Saiyan again... Or doesn't need so if some people still believe he could at Z

[ekrolo2]

I would agree with you... But now sadly there is Super...

BoG was strange and the first question mark...

RoF told a bit how he lost his power and needs Super Saiyan... But this bring the question up what happens if he trains again... Can't he go Super Saiyan again... Or doesn't need so if some people still believe he could at Z

BoG I think you can excuse as the ritual merely "overriding" Old Kai's unlock, after all, Pan's just a fetus yet the ritual draws Super Saiyan power from her too. Not the best defense but I think its something you can let slide.

F seems to work on the assumption Gohan's lost most of his unlocked potential and to reach a comparable level of power, he needs to transform into Super Saiyan. Kind of like this:

Gohan - Base (2% of his Unleashed Potential)
- Super Saiyan (100% of his Unleashed Potential)

I assume once he trains back up to where he can access his bodies full power, Super Saiyan will become useless again with his base form being his primary/only "form".

[sintzu]

Its the same way how SS3 lets Goku use 100% of his body.

Doesn't Ssj3 just boost the user's base power by 400× ?

[Kishido]

I would agree with you... But now sadly there is Super...

BoG was strange and the first question mark...

RoF told a bit how he lost his power and needs Super Saiyan... But this bring the question up what happens if he trains again... Can't he go Super Saiyan again... Or doesn't need so if some people still believe he could at Z

BoG I think you can excuse as the ritual merely "overriding" Old Kai's unlock, after all, Pan's just a fetus yet the ritual draws Super Saiyan power from her too. Not the best defense but I think its something you can let slide.

F seems to work on the assumption Gohan's lost most of his unlocked potential and to reach a comparable level of power, he needs to transform into Super Saiyan. Kind of like this:

Gohan - Base (2% of his Unleashed Potential)
- Super Saiyan (100% of his Unleashed Potential)

I assume once he trains back up to where he can access his bodies full power, Super Saiyan will become useless again with his base form being his primary/only "form".

To be honest... I doubt they will get rid of Super Saiyan cuz of merchandizing. Instead I think they will get rid of Ultimate

[ekrolo2]

Its the same way how SS3 lets Goku use 100% of his body.

Doesn't Ssj3 just boost the user's base power by 400× ?

I seem to recall something about 3 giving you 100% access to your bodies full power.

[sintzu]

I think it's like Kaioken and Ssj, Goku has access to the easy more powerful Ssj from but if he wanted to he could still go back to using Kaioken.

In terms of him "losing" his mystic power, it doesn't make sense but it happened in the same arc that had Freeza go from being weaker than Namek Ssj Goku to stronger than Ssjb Goku so I wouldn't think too much about it if I were you cause story logic is the last thing they're concerned about.

I seem to recall something about 3 giving you 100% access to your bodies full power.

I've read that about Ssj4 which explains why Goku's base and Ssj were so strong after reaching it but in the Buu arc his base & Ssj2 were equal to Vegeta's even though he had 3 so we know that isn't the case with it.

[Kamiccolo9]

Its the same way how SS3 lets Goku use 100% of his body.

Doesn't Ssj3 just boost the user's base power by 400× ?

I seem to recall something about 3 giving you 100% access to your bodies full power.

The Daizenshuu says that about SSJ3. The Super Exciting Guide later adds the 400x multiplier.

[ekrolo2]

I seem to recall something about 3 giving you 100% access to your bodies full power.

I've read that about Ssj4 which explains why Goku's base and Ssj were so strong after reaching it but in the Buu arc his base & Ssj2 were equal to Vegeta's even though he had 3 so we know that isn't the case with it.

Goku's pretty powerful way before reaching it, though. He can take on someone on Kid Boo's level in base form. Later when he fights Freeza and Cell, he powers up with a Super Saiyan aura but remains in his base. A similar occurrence happens later with him in the Shadow Dragon arc. It's also implied by Rild that Goku's multiplier for Super Saiyan has shrunk when they fight, all of this giving the impression Goku's created his own Ultimate state by tapping into his Super Saiyan reservoirs of power without really transforming.

[Captain Strawberry]

Let me explain it to you.

What Elder Kai did is unlock all of Gohan's powers; all of his potential and beyond.

Elder Kai said he doesn't need to go Super Saiyajin and that turning SSJ would be hard on his body. So basically, all SSJ would do is make him blonde and drain some or little of his ki.

Gohan went Super Saiyajin in the BOG movie/arc because it was a Super Saiyajin ritual! See how in Super, Videl was flowing with energy from the SSJ's?

In the guidebooks, it says Gohan's powers are bottomless so when he trains, he can get stronger pretty quickly.

[sintzu]

Goku's pretty powerful way before reaching it, though. He can take on someone on Kid Boo's level in base form.

Later when he fights Freeza and Cell, he powers up with a Super Saiyan aura but remains in his base. A similar occurrence happens later with him in the Shadow Dragon arc.

It's also implied by Rild that Goku's multiplier for Super Saiyan has shrunk when they fight.

When he fought Rildo he didn't say which Buu he was talking about which might've been MR.Buu cause he lost most of his power to Gray Buu so it would make sense for him to be able to fight him normally after 15 years of training.

Those both happen after he unlocks Ssj4.

That's probably due to him not needing the full 50× boost.

Elder Kai said he doesn't need to go Super Saiyajin.

Exactly, he didn't say he couldn't use it, just that it would be unnecessary due to him being able to use everything without the Ssj strain on the body.

[ekrolo2]

Goku's pretty powerful way before reaching it, though. He can take on someone on Kid Boo's level in base form.

Later when he fights Freeza and Cell, he powers up with a Super Saiyan aura but remains in his base. A similar occurrence happens later with him in the Shadow Dragon arc.

It's also implied by Rild that Goku's multiplier for Super Saiyan has shrunk when they fight.

When he fought Rildo he didn't say which Buu he was talking about which might've been MR.Buu cause he lost most of his power to Gray Buu so it would make sense for him to be able to fight him normally after 15 years of training.

Those both happen after he unlocks Ssj4.

That's probably due to him not needing the full 50× boost.

I don't really see Base Goku ever reaching Mr. Boo levels of power. Not without some new power source or method of training to push him harder, for all intents and purposes, Goku's pretty much hit a brick wall by the Boo Saga.

Rild says that Goku, upon activating SS, was only using half of his power up until that point in the battle. Implying Goku's SS has shrunk while his base form has powered up. Similar to how people assume Gokhan would work with a incredibly strong base form making his multipliers smaller.

[sintzu]

I don't really see Base Goku ever reaching Mr. Boo levels of power.

Rild says that Goku, upon activating SS, was only using half of his power.

Buu saga ssj2 Vegeta put up a good fight against Buu with all his power so I don't see why base and Ssj Goku after training for 15 years couldn't put up a fight against someone as strong as Buu after losing his power.


I think Rildo could sense Goku's full 50× power which would explain how he knew he was only using half of it.

[ekrolo2]

I don't really see Base Goku ever reaching Mr. Boo levels of power.

Rild says that Goku, upon activating SS, was only using half of his power.

Buu saga ssj2 Vegeta put up a good fight against Buu with all his power so I don't see why base and Ssj Goku after training for 15 years couldn't put up a fight against someone as strong as Buu after losing his power.


I think Rildo could sense Goku's full 50× power which would explain how he knew he was only using half of it.

I don't see it happening because Goku has no more massive gains giving training methods left. Even Vegeta, who put himself through hell during the 7-year gap had to do just that: put himself through hell with an ineffective method of training to get close to Goku and Gohan and still needed a power boost to equal the former. Goku, after training for 7 years in the afterlife is implied to only be somewhat stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games, once again showing us the law of diminishing returns for a training method after a certain point.

I doubt Goku busted his ass during the 10-year break and spent the 5 years training Oob with an inferior sparring partner he took a while at the very least to give him a half-way decent fight.

Hence why I think Goku, in GT, focused less on increasing his overall power and merely on getting more access to his Super Saiyan transformations power in his base form to create a makeshift Ultimate state of his own.

As for Rild, he says it after Goku transforms, implying Goku was using half of his power already in base with Super Saiyan giving him the other half.

[ekrolo2]

*This is a repost, ignore it.

[Kishido]

Let me explain it to you.

What Elder Kai did is unlock all of Gohan's powers; all of his potential and beyond.

Elder Kai said he doesn't need to go Super Saiyajin and that turning SSJ would be hard on his body. So basically, all SSJ would do is make him blonde and drain some or little of his ki.

Gohan went Super Saiyajin in the BOG movie/arc because it was a Super Saiyajin ritual! See how in Super, Videl was flowing with energy from the SSJ's?

In the guidebooks, it says Gohan's powers are bottomless so when he trains, he can get stronger pretty quickly.

No elder says to Gohan to power up like when he goes Super Saiyan.

After nothing happens to Gohan and Gohan is surprised he tells him that Super Saiyan isn't needed.

The fact stands that Gohan TRIED to go Super and couldn't.

Like with GT in Super he is somehow able to do it

Edit

Here the video... The dub is saying more or less the same as VIZ translation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CTmnQtu8bfo

[Captain Strawberry]

No elder says to Gohan to power up like when he goes Super Saiyan.

After nothing happens to Gohan and Gohan is surprised he tells him that Super Saiyan isn't needed.

The fact stands that Gohan TRIED to go Super and couldn't.

Like with GT in Super he is somehow able to do it

Edit

Here the video... The dub is saying more or less the same as VIZ translation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CTmnQtu8bfo

I don't see your point.

GT: notice how Gohan still has muscle on him so it makes he can still go SSJ but can't go mystic.