Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

You said anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak. This is a universal tournament. Ginyu was one of the strongest people in U7. Therefore, Ginyu is strong and to say "anything less than the levels displayed in the Buu saga is weak" is false. That's why it is ridiculous.

Because it is. If Ginyu joined the U6 tournament, his status as one of the strongest in the universe would've been rendered irrelevant. Why? He would've been knocked out too fast for it to even matter. The fact that you have to go as far back as the Namek saga to use Ginyu as an example proves my point.

This doesn't change the fact that Ginyu is still one of the strongest people in U7.

Back when 120k was considered impressive. That's a laughable level to the fake Androids of all characters.

It's not an entirely different universe. They're TWIN universes. They're meant to be incredibly similar with even counterparts for many important figures in U7. There's no reason for the power levels to be wildly different in U6 compared to U7. The guys in U6 are already extremely impressive; thinking they're SSG level or above is just silly and completely unnecessary with the two base theory in the manga that was already confirmed anyway. I don't know why you guys are so interested in cheapening the idea of SSG and Gods and universal threats like Buu.

And yet they're much different. Is there someone in U7 that can send attacks to another dimension? Is there someone in U7 that can improve throughout the battle? Is there a Metal Man in U7? Therefore, they differ enough where the typical power-scale of U7 will doesn't need to transfer to U6. Where was the theory confirmed?

@HeroR. I agree. I don't really see why the U6 being above Boo saga beings is an issue. Everyone else is strong, so making the competition stronger is a natural thing to do. The series has been doing this from the very beginning, anyway.

Well, in theory U7 should have Metal Men. But none of the Supreme Kais heard of them, so they could have been in U7.

On a final note similar doesn't mean the same. The Saiyans in U6 didn't destroy their original planet, didn't become space pirates, and wasn't wiped out by a space tyrant. They even evolved differently, not having tails. So why would Cabba follow the same power line of U7 Saiyans, who was considered the strongest race in the universe, yet their greatest only had a power level 18,000? Goku and Vegeta are both outliers to the Saiyan in U7, especially since Nappa was considered an elite with a power level that didn't even 5,000.

[Bullza]

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare.

So far they've portrayed the Boo saga characters as being damn near useless. Buu was effortlessly stomped by a suppressed Beerus, Ultimate Gohan was even more effortlessly stomped by Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta and Vegito was simply write off as not having a chance against Beerus.

I know Beerus is near the top and all but up to yet that level seen in the Buu saga has only been shown to be weak.

We know that Angry Vegeta far surpassed Ultimate Gohan, we don't really know if he surpassed Super Vegito but even if he didnt Super Vegito's power may have still been impressive at that point but then it wouldn't have by the next arcs.

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

But he wasn't impressed with Trunks' power and Whis was impressed with Black's power and they should not be drastically more powerful than those from the U6.

Besides aside from Whis and the other Gods he knew like Champa, Angry Vegeta was likely the most powerful mortal that he'd ever come across. By the time of the Tournament though he's come across far more powerful beings that people like Frost or Cabba wouldn't get his praise anymore.

[ssbgoku]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare. Here is my thought out proof of my counter argument:

Making it as easy and short as possible, let's gather what we know first:

1) Master Roshi mentioned vegeta finally suprassing goku
2) Heavily supressed beerus called enraged mutation vegeta more fun then with other Saiyan(reference to his fight with ssj3 goku)
3) Goku who was watching vegeta's rage against beerus was impressed and praised him for suprassing him.

So, what we know Enraged vegeta was at least above ssj3 goku, which means above post rosat ss gotenks buu arc. Now taking in consideration how goku is straight forward and easy going person he always say what he has on his mind/head, so eariler after encountering and having short duel with beerus, goku was not just impressed by glimpse of beerus's power but even mentioned fusion wouldn't work on him.(buu arc ss vegetto), wether he meant ss vegetto as we have seen him or full power is up to speculation, but more shows to fp. Now we know that goku only claimed enraged vegeta suprassed him, but nothing he said about fusion, which means fusion as potara fusion would still beat enraged vegeta.

10% beerus > ss vegetto bog arc > ss vegetto buu arc > enraged vegeta > bog ss3 goku
10% beerus > combined ki failed ritual ss goku

combined ki failed ritual ss goku =? ss vegetto

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

so: buu arc ss vegetto > enraged vegeta > base goku/vegeta/Cabba or Frost or magenta(not full powered).

Of course ss vegetto is not by any degree weak opponent. To be honset I see ss goku/vegeta being less or more equal to full power ss vegetto(buu arc or bog arc)

thats not exactly acurate I agree that ssj vegito is still a strong character but judging by how the anime and manga interpret beerus strength compared to base goku/vegeta we can say base goku/vegeta is way stronger than ssj3 gotenks even ultimate gohan so you would have to at the leat place tham on buuhan lvl and since super goes off the manga in witch vegetto couldnt beat buuhan in base and had to go ssj to do so ssj goku/vegeta are a good bit stronger than ssj vegetto and from whats been happening so far even as a ssj3 goku isnt on a godly lvl meaning even 400 times buuhan isnt on a god lvl so we can assume that the list is

10%beerus>rage vegeta>ssj3 goku u6 arc>ssj3 vegetto buu arc >ssj2 goku/vegeta u6 arc>ssj goku/vegeta u6 arc>ssj2 vegetto buu arc>ssj vegetto buu arc>base goku/vegeta U6 arc>base vegetto buu arc

thats what we can gather from the pile of shit the power scaling is in super but thats the best way that can make sense to me and keep to the original power scaling too

How it isn't accurate ?, I have provided facts and estabilished points which support what I wrote, while you try to bring ss vegetto down due to goku/vegeta suprassing at least ultimate gohan buu arc in base form. They don't need to be at buuhan's level even, at the most buutenks would completly suffice as he also would play aroud with ss3 gotenks as he was warming up while fighting ultimate gohan who is more powerfull then ss3 gotenks.

Honestly I see ss goku or vegeta only as strong ss vegetto, at least until black arc arrived. However they don't seem to train recently so it shouldn't change.
ss3 goku at full power could be at the most ss3 vegetto buu arc level.(hypotehtical). Also why you are putting enraged vegeta above even ss3 vegetto buu arc if I provided all examples of it being otherwise for even ss vegetto being much more above enraged vegeta ? Also Ultimate gohan or gotenks from bog are at least a bit less powerfull then they were in buu arc due to neglecting their's training as time of peace arrived.

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare.

So far they've portrayed the Boo saga characters as being damn near useless. Buu was effortlessly stomped by a suppressed Beerus, Ultimate Gohan was even more effortlessly stomped by Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta and Vegito was simply write off as not having a chance against Beerus.

I know Beerus is near the top and all but up to yet that level seen in the Buu saga has only been shown to be weak.

We know that Angry Vegeta far surpassed Ultimate Gohan, we don't really know if he surpassed Super Vegito but even if he didnt Super Vegito's power may have still been impressive at that point but then it wouldn't have by the next arcs.

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

But he wasn't impressed with Trunks' power and Whis was impressed with Black's power and they should not be drastically more powerful than those from the U6.

Besides aside from Whis and the other Gods he knew like Champa, Angry Vegeta was likely the most powerful mortal that he'd ever come across. By the time of the Tournament though he's come across far more powerful beings that people like Frost or Cabba wouldn't get his praise anymore.

1) Yeah they are useless against god tier characters, but they are still relevant for everyone else. Both Gohan and gotenks neglected their training due to slacking off in time of peace they could be at least 10% weaker then their were in buu arc. About Enraged vegeta, hard to say if goku or vegeta suprassed that level without god power.(aka in base or as ss)

2) This is where you are wrong or misunderstood. Yeah, he was impressed and called Trunks's power impressive/pretty good, that mean he was first besides hit(who beerus praised and noted as being very strong) to be praised by beerus since enraged ss vegeta. Maybe, but even then beerus was angry for goku not using full power against frost calling him weak, not even mentioning cabba.

I honestly see ss vegetto still relevant as he is above enraged vegeta who should clear u6 tournament(except hit) or beat trunks with at the most slight problem

[Bullza]

Yeah they are useless against god tier characters, but they are still relevant for everyone else.

But pretty much all the characters are God tier now. Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Frost, Cabba, Magetta, Trunks, Black, Hit aswell as the actual Gods and their attendants are all on that level.

So the Buu saga levels would only be relevant to the likes of Gohan, Tagoma, Piccolo and the characters who don't do anything.

About Enraged vegeta, hard to say if goku or vegeta suprassed that level without god power.(aka in base or as ss)

Yeah of course they have. After Vegeta trained with Whis Goku commented on how he'd powered up so much that he didn't even recognise him at first. He'd reached a level where he could now sense Gods.

Then there's Enraged Vegeta being knocked unconscious by a suppressed Beerus poking him in the head but an unrestrained Beerus smacked Vegeta in the face with his foot and he's still conscious. There's also Base Goku's fight with Beerus in the movie and anime where he put up a better fight and so on.

And the U6 characters not including Botamo because he's questionable are either on or above this level, same with Trunks and Black.

[ssbgoku]

Yeah they are useless against god tier characters, but they are still relevant for everyone else.

But pretty much all the characters are God tier now. Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Frost, Cabba, Magetta, Trunks, Black, Hit aswell as the actual Gods and their attendants are all on that level.

So the Buu saga levels would only be relevant to the likes of Gohan, Tagoma, Piccolo and the characters who don't do anything.

About Enraged vegeta, hard to say if goku or vegeta suprassed that level without god power.(aka in base or as ss)

Yeah of course they have. After Vegeta trained with Whis Goku commented on how he'd powered up so much that he didn't even recognise him at first. He'd reached a level where he could now sense Gods.

Then there's Enraged Vegeta being knocked unconscious by a suppressed Beerus poking him in the head but an unrestrained Beerus smacked Vegeta in the face with his foot and he's still conscious. There's also Base Goku's fight with Beerus in the movie and anime where he put up a better fight and so on.

And the U6 characters not including Botamo because he's questionable are either on or above this level, same with Trunks and Black.

1) I agree, expect bold ones also with frieeza but exluding golden form for frieeza. Idk about Trunks.

2) Hmm... but it could mean vegeta only slightly supressed enraged ss2 vegeta who was around ultimate gohan level, still sound ridiculous and I guess it could be retconn. Anyway Cabba in base is at the most ss3 gotenks tier as Vegeta was training with whis before having fight with ss3 gotenks.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan Goku was shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan God when he was fighting Beerus and he's had 4-5 years of training since then and Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba didn't seem to be drastically weaker. Frost was clearly weaker but then he didn't fold straight away himself, he put up a better fight in the manga though.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Vegeta budge, I'm sure Cabba could no problem. Goku did say Vegeta had gotten stronger since the Tournament but I don't think it'd be that much that Cabba couldn't even make him move especially when they were on par with one another before.

Assuming that SSJ = SSJG still then there's a bunch on a similiar level. Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku so just by doing that he should be far above Gotenks too.

[HeroR]

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare.

So far they've portrayed the Boo saga characters as being damn near useless. Buu was effortlessly stomped by a suppressed Beerus, Ultimate Gohan was even more effortlessly stomped by Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta and Vegito was simply write off as not having a chance against Beerus.

I know Beerus is near the top and all but up to yet that level seen in the Buu saga has only been shown to be weak.

We know that Angry Vegeta far surpassed Ultimate Gohan, we don't really know if he surpassed Super Vegito but even if he didnt Super Vegito's power may have still been impressive at that point but then it wouldn't have by the next arcs.

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

But he wasn't impressed with Trunks' power and Whis was impressed with Black's power and they should not be drastically more powerful than those from the U6.

Besides aside from Whis and the other Gods he knew like Champa, Angry Vegeta was likely the most powerful mortal that he'd ever come across. By the time of the Tournament though he's come across far more powerful beings that people like Frost or Cabba wouldn't get his praise anymore.

It should be noted that Beerus wasn't impressed by Vegeta in Super, even when he raged against him. He was dismissive of Vegeta throughout the entire Battle of Gods Saga.

[Noah]

According to Herms:

Black: "I want to know more about Goku. That way, I'll become even stronger."

So it would seem that Goku's Black strength is determined by how much he knows about how strong Present Goku is.

I don't think so, I think is determined by how much pain he stands against stronger opponents.

In-thread question:

Do you guys think (ignoring 2 Base theory) that Super Saiyan Goku could beat Final Form Freeza in RoF?

[ssbgoku]

Super Saiyan Goku was shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan God when he was fighting Beerus and he's had 4-5 years of training since then and Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba didn't seem to be drastically weaker. Frost was clearly weaker but then he didn't fold straight away himself, he put up a better fight in the manga though.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Vegeta budge, I'm sure Cabba could no problem. Goku did say Vegeta had gotten stronger since the Tournament but I don't think it'd be that much that Cabba couldn't even make him move especially when they were on par with one another before.

Assuming that SSJ = SSJG still then there's a bunch on a similiar level. Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku so just by doing that he should be far above Gotenks too.

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog. This is where my deduction and observation let me question it and shows otherwise.

After ssg time limit expired/ended and goku turned into ss beerus noted that crimson red fire is still burning inside you and it was revealed that goku didn't got any weaker in super Saiyan god while fighting beerus after this. Now hear me out and read it carefully

1) Beerus was impressed by ssg's power yet he called u6 ss goku weak and scolded him for not using full power,clearly points ss goku with crimson fire ~ bog ssg goku > any ss goku until now.

2) Goku and vegeta while compared to beerus were show as complelty weak even after or by end of whis's training before rof. If you points woudl stand correct then that they would be only 1/50th part of ssg, which shouldn't be by any point that weak.

3) King Kai claimed for goku only and vegeta too entered god realm/became god by turning into ssb.

4) Majin buu was still important/relevant in power level when u6 tournament what about to happen

5) Picoolo faired well against Frost, even although he was weakened a lot.

6) Beerus didn't call any from u6 besides hit doing pretty well or being impressive as he did with mai trunks who is in current arc.

Idk about purple vegeta, I am not sure if we even should take it seriously but even if goku and vegeta would be just slightly above ultimate gohan buu arc.

I completly disagree with such statement as there is no base to support such claim. It seems Boo saga top tiers are still hold high by both Akira and Toei as you need to be god level to make them shit in compare.

So far they've portrayed the Boo saga characters as being damn near useless. Buu was effortlessly stomped by a suppressed Beerus, Ultimate Gohan was even more effortlessly stomped by Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta and Vegito was simply write off as not having a chance against Beerus.

I know Beerus is near the top and all but up to yet that level seen in the Buu saga has only been shown to be weak.

We know that Angry Vegeta far surpassed Ultimate Gohan, we don't really know if he surpassed Super Vegito but even if he didnt Super Vegito's power may have still been impressive at that point but then it wouldn't have by the next arcs.

Now we know Beerus was slightly impressed by enraged vegeta who is inferior to ss vegetto, yet beerus was not impressed by base goku/vegeta, botamo, Base Cabba, Frost(even used supressed ss by goku was neglected by beerus).

But he wasn't impressed with Trunks' power and Whis was impressed with Black's power and they should not be drastically more powerful than those from the U6.

Besides aside from Whis and the other Gods he knew like Champa, Angry Vegeta was likely the most powerful mortal that he'd ever come across. By the time of the Tournament though he's come across far more powerful beings that people like Frost or Cabba wouldn't get his praise anymore.

It should be noted that Beerus wasn't impressed by Vegeta in Super, even when he raged against him. He was dismissive of Vegeta throughout the entire Battle of Gods Saga.

Yes, he was and even called his power impressive or pretty good, which he has never did in u6 tournament besides hit.

Leggit point, but it could be also assumed ss vegetto would be fodder to ssg but it doesn't mean that he was for anyone else as everything point to them at the best being close to top tiers of buu arc.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

What..? Freeza was supposed to be at the top of the universe in his 1st form, which is only a fraction of his true power, Cold was the secret #2 in the universe, with power not far behind Freeza's full power, and the Ginyu Tokusentai are supposed to be the strongest warriors in the universe, while other fighters like Zarbon, Dodoria, Kui, and Vegeta (Saiyan arc) were some of the most powerful fighters in the whole universe. Puipui & Yakon are also considered some of the strongest warriors in the universe.

Dr. Gero managed to create the Artificial Humans because he was an extremely-super-special-genius, and he is the only person known to have created artificial humans with such power, and his technology was greater than the technology that whole galaxy possessed, since some of his Artificial Humans surpass Mecha Freeza, who was upgraded with the greatest tech in the universe.

The only ones stronger than that before the Super Saiyans & Artificial Humans where Kaioshin, Hakaishin Beerus, Whis (all 3 of them are top gods), Dabra (the king of Makai), and Majin Boo (a magical demon), and all of them are special beings.

So no, they are not weak, you just call them weak. The warriors on Earth just became extremely powerful after Freeza arc.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan Goku was shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan God when he was fighting Beerus and he's had 4-5 years of training since then and Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba didn't seem to be drastically weaker. Frost was clearly weaker but then he didn't fold straight away himself, he put up a better fight in the manga though.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Vegeta budge, I'm sure Cabba could no problem. Goku did say Vegeta had gotten stronger since the Tournament but I don't think it'd be that much that Cabba couldn't even make him move especially when they were on par with one another before.

Assuming that SSJ = SSJG still then there's a bunch on a similiar level. Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku so just by doing that he should be far above Gotenks too.

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog. This is where my deduction and observation let me question it and shows otherwise.

After ssg time limit expired/ended and goku turned into ss beerus noted that crimson red fire is still burning inside you and it was revealed that goku didn't got any weaker in super Saiyan god while fighting beerus after this. Now hear me out and read it carefully

1) Beerus was impressed by ssg's power yet he called u6 ss goku weak and scolded him for not using full power,clearly points ss goku with crimson fire ~ bog ssg goku > any ss goku until now.

2) Goku and vegeta while compared to beerus were show as complelty weak even after or by end of whis's training before rof. If you points woudl stand correct then that they would be only 1/50th part of ssg, which shouldn't be by any point that weak.

3) King Kai claimed for goku only and vegeta too entered god realm/became god by turning into ssb.

4) Majin buu was still important/relevant in power level when u6 tournament what about to happen

5) Picoolo faired well against Frost, even although he was weakened a lot.

6) Beerus didn't call any from u6 besides hit doing pretty well or being impressive as he did with mai trunks who is in current arc.

Idk about purple vegeta, I am not sure if we even should take it seriously but even if goku and vegeta would be just slightly above ultimate gohan buu arc.

So far they've portrayed the Boo saga characters as being damn near useless. Buu was effortlessly stomped by a suppressed Beerus, Ultimate Gohan was even more effortlessly stomped by Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta and Vegito was simply write off as not having a chance against Beerus.

I know Beerus is near the top and all but up to yet that level seen in the Buu saga has only been shown to be weak.

We know that Angry Vegeta far surpassed Ultimate Gohan, we don't really know if he surpassed Super Vegito but even if he didnt Super Vegito's power may have still been impressive at that point but then it wouldn't have by the next arcs.



But he wasn't impressed with Trunks' power and Whis was impressed with Black's power and they should not be drastically more powerful than those from the U6.

Besides aside from Whis and the other Gods he knew like Champa, Angry Vegeta was likely the most powerful mortal that he'd ever come across. By the time of the Tournament though he's come across far more powerful beings that people like Frost or Cabba wouldn't get his praise anymore.

It should be noted that Beerus wasn't impressed by Vegeta in Super, even when he raged against him. He was dismissive of Vegeta throughout the entire Battle of Gods Saga.

Yes, he was and even called his power impressive or pretty good, which he has never did in u6 tournament besides hit.

Leggit point, but it could be also assumed ss vegetto would be fodder to ssg but it doesn't mean that he was for anyone else as everything point to them at the best being close to top tiers of buu arc.

Beerus only called Hit impressive because of his Time Leaping power. Even Whis was impressed since he didn't think people could manipulate time like him.

[ssbgoku]

Super Saiyan Goku was shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan God when he was fighting Beerus and he's had 4-5 years of training since then and Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba didn't seem to be drastically weaker. Frost was clearly weaker but then he didn't fold straight away himself, he put up a better fight in the manga though.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Vegeta budge, I'm sure Cabba could no problem. Goku did say Vegeta had gotten stronger since the Tournament but I don't think it'd be that much that Cabba couldn't even make him move especially when they were on par with one another before.

Assuming that SSJ = SSJG still then there's a bunch on a similiar level. Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku so just by doing that he should be far above Gotenks too.

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog. This is where my deduction and observation let me question it and shows otherwise.

After ssg time limit expired/ended and goku turned into ss beerus noted that crimson red fire is still burning inside you and it was revealed that goku didn't got any weaker in super Saiyan god while fighting beerus after this. Now hear me out and read it carefully

1) Beerus was impressed by ssg's power yet he called u6 ss goku weak and scolded him for not using full power,clearly points ss goku with crimson fire ~ bog ssg goku > any ss goku until now.

2) Goku and vegeta while compared to beerus were show as complelty weak even after or by end of whis's training before rof. If you points woudl stand correct then that they would be only 1/50th part of ssg, which shouldn't be by any point that weak.

3) King Kai claimed for goku only and vegeta too entered god realm/became god by turning into ssb.

4) Majin buu was still important/relevant in power level when u6 tournament what about to happen

5) Picoolo faired well against Frost, even although he was weakened a lot.

6) Beerus didn't call any from u6 besides hit doing pretty well or being impressive as he did with mai trunks who is in current arc.

Idk about purple vegeta, I am not sure if we even should take it seriously but even if goku and vegeta would be just slightly above ultimate gohan buu arc.

It should be noted that Beerus wasn't impressed by Vegeta in Super, even when he raged against him. He was dismissive of Vegeta throughout the entire Battle of Gods Saga.

Yes, he was and even called his power impressive or pretty good, which he has never did in u6 tournament besides hit.

Leggit point, but it could be also assumed ss vegetto would be fodder to ssg but it doesn't mean that he was for anyone else as everything point to them at the best being close to top tiers of buu arc.

Beerus only called Hit impressive because of his Time Leaping power. Even Whis was impressed since he didn't think people could manipulate time like him.

Even then he still called him impressive not matter what a reason. Besides Legendary hit's power was not weak too, so you shouldn't exlcude power being included along with special ability as beerus didn't specify

[HeroR]

Even then he still called him impressive not matter what a reason. Besides Legendary hit's power was not weak too, so you shouldn't exlcude power being included along with special ability as beerus didn't specify

I never called Hit weak, I just said Beerus and Whis only called Hit impressive since he can freeze time, not because he was physically powerful. They also had some interest in him since he was called the strongest fighter in U6 and was hand chosen by Champa.

[Bullza]

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog.

Well that's still where things become questionable. He as shown to be as strong as SSJG at that time and there's never been any kind of comment on it being significantly weaker since then.

With Toriyama's comments about him absorbing the power and not needing to become a SSJG again then it would make it seem as though even without SSJG he would not be any weaker than that.

Then again the form did come back, though only in the manga and it did seem to be stronger than SSJ but then Toriyama may have had nothing to do with that.

I can't remember Beerus calling SSJ Goku eak but him telling him to use full power would just be referring to SSJB.

Even if Super Saiyan is weaker it would still be stronger than Buu saga levels just by virtue of Base being far above those levels. Super Vegito is arguably the only Buu saga character whose power is worth squat and even then he'd be on the severe low end.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not about how long he spent training, it's about what they accomplished. You are right, Trunks in the future was older when we see he training to become a Super Saiyan and it wasn't until Goku left RoSaT he realized Super Saiyan can get much much stronger if he eliminates the stress. Trunks in the main timeline started much soon and he had Goten as a rival. They realized together how to make Super Saiyan easy to attain. It was a such a big deal, that Gohan and Vegeta were very impressed.

This is what I'm challenging, why do you assume Future Trunks did not start his training very early on, possibly even earlier than present trunks due to the critical situation of earth? and why would the kids discover this easy way to transform and future trunks and gohan wouldn't?

Because I only saw Future Trunks training when he was 14. I can't find any source stating he has been training since he was a squirt. We don't know when Gohan started training Trunks also. To be fair, I don't think I would call "training" what Goten and Trunks were doing. It's like when we were children, we played fights with our friends. Since they were together often, I assume it was easier to get accostumed to Super Saiyan. Future Gohan and Trunks were under tension practically all the time, thus explaining why they didn't think about calming their minds when they were transformed. Even Vegeta didn't think about that until seeing what Goku created.

Vegeta was the strongest between the two. He didn't exactly struggle with Cabba, it was more that Cabba was able to keep up with him a bit, both in Base and as a SS. Vegeta actually struggled against Magetta.

Yes, he definitely has some advantage over Cabba, but as Vegeta said, Cabba can hold his own against Vegeta:

http://img.mymanga.me/5043479691121569724409815006.png

This implies that the gap in power is small. You said training with Whis is a huge deal. So I repeat, how did Cabba get so strong without Vados's help? And if he is so strong, why did Vegeta say "how did you survive in a battlefield?"

It's interesting to note that Vegeta changed his tone once Cabba asked his help. So, I wouldn't say he was aiming Cabba's power with those words, rather than his attitude. In the first, Vegeta is acknowledging Cabba for his battle sense and, in the second, he is trashing him for his naive nature. I would probably say Cabba is in the battle's frontlines for a very long time or he is naturally very gifted to be chosen in such tournament. Super Saiyan was an easy task for him. One way or another, his strength doesn't need to make sense for me.

[HeroR]

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog.

Well that's still where things become questionable. He as shown to be as strong as SSJG at that time and there's never been any kind of comment on it being significantly weaker since then.

With Toriyama's comments about him absorbing the power and not needing to become a SSJG again then it would make it seem as though even without SSJG he would not be any weaker than that.

Then again the form did come back, though only in the manga and it did seem to be stronger than SSJ but then Toriyama may have had nothing to do with that.

I can't remember Beerus calling SSJ Goku eak but him telling him to use full power would just be referring to SSJB.

Even if Super Saiyan is weaker it would still be stronger than Buu saga levels just by virtue of Base being far above those levels. Super Vegito is arguably the only Buu saga character whose power is worth squat and even then he'd be on the severe low end.

The biggest problem with Vegetto is that we never saw his upper limit. Like, how would Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto fair against Beerus? And we will never know because Buu Saga Vegetto can't exist anymore since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger.

Which is why I hate comparing Vegetto to anyone.

[ssbgoku]

Even then he still called him impressive not matter what a reason. Besides Legendary hit's power was not weak too, so you shouldn't exlcude power being included along with special ability as beerus didn't specify

I never called Hit weak, I just said Beerus and Whis only called Hit impressive since he can freeze time, not because he was physically powerful. They also had some interest in him since he was called the strongest fighter in U6 and was hand chosen by Champa.

I didn't mean that. Well being choosen as the strongest fighter could point to that, but also hit made impression on beerus from get go.

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog.

Well that's still where things become questionable. He as shown to be as strong as SSJG at that time and there's never been any kind of comment on it being significantly weaker since then.

With Toriyama's comments about him absorbing the power and not needing to become a SSJG again then it would make it seem as though even without SSJG he would not be any weaker than that.

Then again the form did come back, though only in the manga and it did seem to be stronger than SSJ but then Toriyama may have had nothing to do with that.

I can't remember Beerus calling SSJ Goku eak but him telling him to use full power would just be referring to SSJB.

Even if Super Saiyan is weaker it would still be stronger than Buu saga levels just by virtue of Base being far above those levels. Super Vegito is arguably the only Buu
saga character whose power is worth squat and even then he'd be on the severe low end.

Well but there is no mention from beerus about crimson fire still burning inside goku's body, which could points to goku needed ssg to acces it power as shown in the manga, but he would do that by himself.(accessing it). Toriyama could easily retcon this, so we shouldn't be sure.

Also until goku turned ssb neither of character called goku having strength increase or being stronger then he was as ss/base against beerus. I thinks it was after goku lost to frost or while he was sitting on the desk next to beerus after his match with frost.

Arguably Ss goku/vegeta by u6 arc are still infferior but close to ss vegetto buu arc's level, How did I come up to such conclusion ?

Base goku/vegeta ~ ultimate gohan buu arc(possibly buutenks)
buutenks ~ base vegetto
ss vegetto > ss goku/vegeta

Exactly, basically issue in my opinion lays in your assumption ss goku against beers after god power expired = ss goku after bog.

Well that's still where things become questionable. He as shown to be as strong as SSJG at that time and there's never been any kind of comment on it being significantly weaker since then.

With Toriyama's comments about him absorbing the power and not needing to become a SSJG again then it would make it seem as though even without SSJG he would not be any weaker than that.

Then again the form did come back, though only in the manga and it did seem to be stronger than SSJ but then Toriyama may have had nothing to do with that.

I can't remember Beerus calling SSJ Goku eak but him telling him to use full power would just be referring to SSJB.

Even if Super Saiyan is weaker it would still be stronger than Buu saga levels just by virtue of Base being far above those levels. Super Vegito is arguably the only Buu saga character whose power is worth squat and even then he'd be on the severe low end.

The biggest problem with Vegetto is that we never saw his upper limit. Like, how would Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto fair against Beerus? And we will never know because Buu Saga Vegetto can't exist anymore since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger.

Which is why I hate comparing Vegetto to anyone.

Exactly... The only possible way to estimate vegetto's power as ss from buu arc is using enraged vegeta, 10% beerus. We know that enraged vegeta > bog ss3 goku > slacking off ultimate gohan buu arc.

bog ss3 goku ~ ss2 gotenks buu arc, I would assume. Vegeta suprised beerus for brief moment, so he could be even 4 times as powerfull.

bog arc slacking off ss3 gotenks =< enraged vegeta

I have ss vegetto three times stronger then buuhan, and buuhan being 2 times of super buu

Enraged vegeta at the lowest could be 1% of beerus, this way ss vegetto would be 6% of beerus.

as ss3 vegetto would be 48% but it would be too high, but I think depending from how much enraged vegeta is stronger then ss3 goku would make ss vegetto from at least 4% to 6%. At least 30% of beerus and at the most 50% of beerus

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

What..? Freeza was supposed to be at the top of the universe in his 1st form, which is only a fraction of his true power, Cold was the secret #2 in the universe, with power not far behind Freeza's full power, and the Ginyu Tokusentai are supposed to be the strongest warriors in the universe, while other fighters like Zarbon, Dodoria, Kui, and Vegeta (Saiyan arc) were some of the most powerful fighters in the whole universe. Puipui & Yakon are also considered some of the strongest warriors in the universe.

Dr. Gero managed to create the Artificial Humans because he was an extremely-super-special-genius, and he is the only person known to have created artificial humans with such power, and his technology was greater than the technology that whole galaxy possessed, since some of his Artificial Humans surpass Mecha Freeza, who was upgraded with the greatest tech in the universe.

The only ones stronger than that before the Super Saiyans & Artificial Humans where Kaioshin, Hakaishin Beerus, Whis (all 3 of them are top gods), Dabra (the king of Makai), and Majin Boo (a magical demon), and all of them are special beings.

So no, they are not weak, you just call them weak. The warriors on Earth just became extremely powerful after Freeza arc.

None of this has anything to do with the U6 warriors. What would the likes of the Ginyu Force, Zarbon, or Freeza from back then do in the U6 tournament? Nothing but get steamrolled. You're going off of a standard set in the early part of DBZ. A being as strong as Cell is considered a joke by Goku and Vegeta. That isn't my opinion. It's stated.

They're weak in comparison to the new beings, which was precisely my point from the get go.

[HeroR]

Anything far weaker than levels displayed in the Boo saga is weak. Being way above a million is something man-made Androids can achieve.

What..? Freeza was supposed to be at the top of the universe in his 1st form, which is only a fraction of his true power, Cold was the secret #2 in the universe, with power not far behind Freeza's full power, and the Ginyu Tokusentai are supposed to be the strongest warriors in the universe, while other fighters like Zarbon, Dodoria, Kui, and Vegeta (Saiyan arc) were some of the most powerful fighters in the whole universe. Puipui & Yakon are also considered some of the strongest warriors in the universe.

Dr. Gero managed to create the Artificial Humans because he was an extremely-super-special-genius, and he is the only person known to have created artificial humans with such power, and his technology was greater than the technology that whole galaxy possessed, since some of his Artificial Humans surpass Mecha Freeza, who was upgraded with the greatest tech in the universe.

The only ones stronger than that before the Super Saiyans & Artificial Humans where Kaioshin, Hakaishin Beerus, Whis (all 3 of them are top gods), Dabra (the king of Makai), and Majin Boo (a magical demon), and all of them are special beings.

So no, they are not weak, you just call them weak. The warriors on Earth just became extremely powerful after Freeza arc.

None of this has anything to do with the U6 warriors. What would the likes of the Ginyu Force, Zarbon, or Freeza from back then do in the U6 tournament? Nothing but get steamrolled. You're going off of a standard set in the early part of DBZ. A being as strong as Cell is considered a joke by Goku and Vegeta. That isn't my opinion. It's stated.

They're weak in comparison to the new beings, which was precisely my point from the get go.

I also want to add that Vegeta didn't want to bring Buu, calling him too weak because he got flattered by Beerus. This is despite Mr. Buu being the strongest after Gohan, not including Gotenks. So anyone of Perfect Cell or even Super Perfect Cell's level would have been laughable. And before anyone mentions Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta didn't really want him either. Vegeta wanted Gohan and Goku wanted the reborn Kid Buu.

Also, in the tv special with Tarble, someone of Namek Saga Freeza's level was kid fodder. You know, the original strongest in the universe.

[dbgtFO]

I wonder how big the gap between Base Goku and Beerus people consider it to be now.
From being less than a 2x gap to now more than a factor of 10? Maybe even hundreds, if not thousands, if you go by the old multipliers?