Mystic and Super Saiyan... One last time

[Kamiccolo9]

No elder says to Gohan to power up like when he goes Super Saiyan.

After nothing happens to Gohan and Gohan is surprised he tells him that Super Saiyan isn't needed.

The fact stands that Gohan TRIED to go Super and couldn't.

No, he doesn't.

[Hitiro]

No elder says to Gohan to power up like when he goes Super Saiyan.

After nothing happens to Gohan and Gohan is surprised he tells him that Super Saiyan isn't needed.

The fact stands that Gohan TRIED to go Super and couldn't.

Like with GT in Super he is somehow able to do it

Edit

Here the video... The dub is saying more or less the same as VIZ translation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CTmnQtu8bfo

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

The Elder Kaioshin says that if Gohan get's the gist of SSJ and throws ina kiai he will be able to use the strength. He doesn't specifically say that he needs to try and go SSJ. It is just a similar process. So they don't have to be the same.

[Kaboom]

There's four main ways, that I'm aware of anyway, that Gohan's "Ultimate" state has been treated in Dragon Ball media over the years.


The most important one and the only one that really matters is the original manga. In it, Gohan's new form was portrayed as a permanent and very potent change to not just his power, but his overall being. It was an even more extreme version of the prior dormant power unlocking he received on Namek, with the added effect of not just increasing but actually altering his power. It took all he had as a Super Saiyan and then some, and reorganized it in a more compact and natural form.

The Old Kaioshin's instructions to "power-up like going Super Saiyan, but with more 'oomph' to it" just seemed to be what was needed to finalize this process. When the new Ultimate Gohan arrived on the battlefield, Piccolo noted that his ki, features, and even mannerisms all felt different. But the most crucial detail is that Gohan stayed that way, even when not fighting, and even 10 years later when he'd retired completely and become a scholar. There was no mistake in the manga: this was a permanent change to Gohan's very essence, and not just some new transformation.



Next is Movie 13, which did treat Gohan's Ultimate state like a transformation. He's his normal, early Boo-arc self for most of the movie, but on the multiple occasions when he fights Hirudegarn, he powers up and gains his Ultimate appearance, power, and intensity. Buuuuut I don't think we can really blame the movie for that. If I'm not mistaken, it was produced well before the Majin Boo arc had wrapped up, and thus before we'd seen still-Ultimate Gohan during the epilogue. So it seems like Toei just worked with what it had at the time: Gohan gaining this new "mightiest warrior" state by powering up similarly to going Super Saiyan.



Then there was GT. It actually did a fairly good job, and took what the original manga showed and built upon it. In GT, Gohan retains his Ultimate-state characteristics and power, but now also goes Super Saiyan on top of it. How and why this happens isn't made clear in the series itself. You'd think that maybe his power has degraded somewhat over time and he now uses Super Saiyan to make up for it, but the GT Perfect Files implies the opposite. It says that Gohan actually has kept up his training (*gasp*), so maybe his regained Super Saiyan ability is actually new additional strength gained by that.

So all in all, GT's portrayal of Gohan and his power is actually the best one from among the spinoffs, because it sticks the closest to what the original manga presented. The only real issue is a power-scaling one... Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as somehow already being much stronger than Gohan just because, even before they gain Super Saiyan 4 or anything like that. But despite this shameless effort from Dragon Ball Goku Time to make its titular character look good, at least it didn't unfairly downgrade other characters at the same time.



...And speaking of that, we come to the ugly stain of the lot, which is Super (and to a lesser extent, the new movies before it). From what I assume is modern DB's track record of making Goku look good at other characters' expense, the newest stories have taken a step backwards and reverted to the worse possible approach. They treat Gohan's "ultimate" state as not just another transformation, but one that he can lose. In both Battle of Gods and its equivalent Super arc, Gohan goes Super Saiyan to help with the Super Saiyan God ritual, but before that he also "goes" Ultimate to get his ass kicked by Beerus. Then in Resurrection F and its adaptation arc, Gohan tells us he can't use his "full power" anymore, but can still manage to go Super Saiyan, so that "full power" can only be his maximum Ultimate state.

So Gohan's Super Saiyan and Ultimate forms are apparently treated by Super as alternate transformations branches, where the former lets him tap into some of his full power, and the latter grants him all of it. Internally it makes a little bit of sense on its own, but it still flies against what the manga showed, and all seems to serve no purpose but to nerf Gohan for the sake of making Goku and Vegeta look good. Gohan has been shown with his Ultimate appearance again recently, during his training with Piccolo. They could be working an angle where Gohan has some development during Super, and regains his former strength after almost losing it for good, and perhaps even continues to train after that in a weird, indirect nod of sorts to GT. But I wouldn't expect that. It's giving Toei too much credit.

[Hitiro]

...And speaking of that, we come to the ugly stain of the lot, which is Super (and to a lesser extent, the new movies before it). From what I assume is modern DB's track record of making Goku look good at other characters' expense, the newest stories have taken a step backwards and reverted to the worse possible approach. They treat Gohan's "ultimate" state as not just another transformation, but one that he can lose. In both Battle of Gods and its equivalent Super arc, Gohan goes Super Saiyan to help with the Super Saiyan God ritual, but before that he also "goes" Ultimate to get his ass kicked by Beerus. Then in Resurrection F and its adaptation arc, Gohan tells us he can't use his "full power" anymore, but can still manage to go Super Saiyan, so that "full power" can only be his maximum Ultimate state.

So Gohan's Super Saiyan and Ultimate forms are apparently treated by Super as alternate transformations branches, where the former lets him tap into some of his full power, and the latter grants him all of it. Internally it makes a little bit of sense on its own, but it still flies against what the manga showed, and all seems to serve no purpose but to nerf Gohan for the sake of making Goku and Vegeta look good. Gohan has been shown with his Ultimate appearance again recently, during his training with Piccolo. They could be working an angle where Gohan has some development during Super, and regains his former strength after almost losing it for good, and perhaps even continues to train after that in a weird, indirect nod of sorts to GT. But I wouldn't expect that. It's giving Toei too much credit.

I actually took what happened in Super to be that Gohan maintained the "ultimate" state but it's power tailed off through him not training anymore. I think this was evident in the FnF portion of Super because Gohan was still portrayed as stronger than Piccolo even while in his base form. Which would only be true if he kept some of the power from his "ultimate" state. Because it was established that base Saiyan's were still not as strong as Freeza in the BoG portion of Super and in the movies. I also saw Gohan's "I can turn SSJ probably" as sort of a Kaioken kind of scenario. He still retains a large amount of the power from his "ultimate" state and to go SSJ on top of that with his body in its current condition is not that good for him.

[Kishido]

No elder says to Gohan to power up like when he goes Super Saiyan.

After nothing happens to Gohan and Gohan is surprised he tells him that Super Saiyan isn't needed.

The fact stands that Gohan TRIED to go Super and couldn't.

Like with GT in Super he is somehow able to do it

Edit

Here the video... The dub is saying more or less the same as VIZ translation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CTmnQtu8bfo

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”

The Elder Kaioshin says that if Gohan get's the gist of SSJ and throws ina kiai he will be able to use the strength. He doesn't specifically say that he needs to try and go SSJ. It is just a similar process. So they don't have to be the same.

Cool translation and now this brings me back to my opening question.

Could he go Super Saiyan at Z and if yes Ultimate is really a transformation instead of a power up.

Further more what benefits will Super Saiyan have if he trains himself to get back to his ultimate form.

As I said in the past... Ultimate while badass and cool
was the worst decision in terms of handling.
Why not simply powering Gohan up like in Namek instead of a silly ritual with a magic transformation co existing and even since GT bringing more questions up as solutions

And if he as in the Frieza arc could go Super Saiyan on top why not used against Buutenks?

[Captain Strawberry]

I don't understand the all the confusion.

Ultimate isn't really a transformation, just a form. All of his power whether latent etc is in his base form.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't understand the all the confusion.

Ultimate isn't really a transformation, just a form. All of his power whether latent etc is in his base form.

If it is a different form, then it is a transformation. That's what the word means, To change one's form.

[Krillin1994]

So ultimate Gohan is just him channelling his ki in a certain way,

Sort of how Goku switches on God ki to have his Saiyan beyond god base?

[Captain Strawberry]

I don't understand the all the confusion.

Ultimate isn't really a transformation, just a form. All of his power whether latent etc is in his base form.

If it is a different form, then it is a transformation. That's what the word means, To change one's form.

Well would you say Ultimate is a transformation?

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't understand the all the confusion.

Ultimate isn't really a transformation, just a form. All of his power whether latent etc is in his base form.

If it is a different form, then it is a transformation. That's what the word means, To change one's form.

Well would you say Ultimate is a transformation?

No, but I wouldn't call it a form, either. It's just Gohan powering up.

[Ozotto]

Buu: So hot shot, you wanna fight Majin Buu?
Gohan: Fight you? No, I want to kill you.

One of the most bad ass lines in the history of Funimation dub.
Plus the faulconer score during it makes it even better.

I think Gohan gains access to all available transformations power that existed in the continuity at the time, so turning super saiyan1/2/3 would only bring it's draw backs with no additional benefit, since he already had all the power from those forms, in his base form.

This creates a plateau for Gohan, meaning technically he shouldn't be able to get any stronger, unless he's some how able to go even further beyond his own maximum potential.
Which is sort of an interesting concept, but you begin to debate what 'potential' actually is.
The series was close to finishing so it made sense to cap his power...

[Captain Strawberry]

Buu: So hot shot, you wanna fight Majin Buu?
Gohan: Fight you? No, I want to kill you.

One of the most bad ass lines in the history of Funimation dub.
Plus the faulconer score during it makes it even better.

I think Gohan gains access to all available transformations power that existed in the continuity at the time, so turning super saiyan1/2/3 would only bring it's draw backs with no additional benefit, since he already had all the power from those forms, in his base form.

This creates a plateau for Gohan, meaning technically he shouldn't be able to get any stronger, unless he's some how able to go even further beyond his own maximum potential.
Which is sort of an interesting concept, but you begin to debate what 'potential' actually is.
The series was close to finishing so it made sense to cap his power...

He harnessed his potential, the guidebooks (I think it was during when he got his powers unlocked) that his powers are bottomless. So when he trains, he gets big gains.

[Tectorman]

The most important one and the only one that really matters is the original manga. In it, Gohan's new form was portrayed as a permanent and very potent change to not just his power, but his overall being. It was an even more extreme version of the prior dormant power unlocking he received on Namek, with the added effect of not just increasing but actually altering his power. It took all he had as a Super Saiyan and then some, and reorganized it in a more compact and natural form.

The Old Kaioshin's instructions to "power-up like going Super Saiyan, but with more 'oomph' to it" just seemed to be what was needed to finalize this process. When the new Ultimate Gohan arrived on the battlefield, Piccolo noted that his ki, features, and even mannerisms all felt different. But the most crucial detail is that Gohan stayed that way, even when not fighting, and even 10 years later when he'd retired completely and become a scholar. There was no mistake in the manga: this was a permanent change to Gohan's very essence, and not just some new transformation.

The bolding at the very bottom is mine.

I have seen multiple claims to this point, and I just don't see it. There were, as far as I know, three visual changes to Gohan between his Base Form and his Ultimate Form in the manga. His hairstyle changes, he's more muscular, and his eyes become fully outlined.

And I don't see this still being the case in the EoZ arc. EoZ Gohan in the manga looks like Buu Saga Base Form Gohan except, you know, older. Time has passed. Any changes that may exist can easily be chalked up to that. Does he appear more muscular? Sure. So does Namek Goku compared to Saiyan Goku. Is EoZ Gohan's hair different? Sure. So is Goten's. What am I missing that EoZ Gohan is unmistakeably "Ultimate" and not "Base, but changed due to years"?

[Kaboom]

What am I missing that EoZ Gohan is unmistakeably "Ultimate" and not "Base, but changed due to years"?

It's mostly the eyes. They still have the same fully-outlined "intense" appearance, and those massive glasses don't do a good job of hiding them. It's a relatively small visual detail, but in this case it's pretty telling.

Plus, with how we know Saiyans age, Gohan was probably already done growing by the Boo arc's start anyway. Getting another ten years older wouldn't have changed his physique much if at all, or in this case visibly made up for growing weaker.

[Zephyr]

Then in Resurrection F and its adaptation arc, Gohan tells us he can't use his "full power" anymore, but can still manage to go Super Saiyan, so that "full power" can only be his maximum Ultimate state.

Couldn't it also be Super Saiyan 2? I don't remember the film or the arc specifying which Super Saiyan form he used (could be mis-remembering though), so he could have only been able to reach SSj1.

[Nejishiki]

Then in Resurrection F and its adaptation arc, Gohan tells us he can't use his "full power" anymore, but can still manage to go Super Saiyan, so that "full power" can only be his maximum Ultimate state.

Couldn't it also be Super Saiyan 2? I don't remember the film or the arc specifying which Super Saiyan form he used (could be mis-remembering though), so he could have only been able to reach SSj1.

He just transforms, to my recollection. No emphasis is given to which level of power it was. Was he sparking with electricity? If only Gohan would get a better haircut for us to distinguish the forms.

[Kaboom]

Couldn't it also be Super Saiyan 2? I don't remember the film or the arc specifying which Super Saiyan form he used (could be mis-remembering though), so he could have only been able to reach SSj1.

Only if the new stuff was completely ignoring that his Ultimate state even exists, which doesn't quite seem to be the case.

[Zephyr]

Couldn't it also be Super Saiyan 2? I don't remember the film or the arc specifying which Super Saiyan form he used (could be mis-remembering though), so he could have only been able to reach SSj1.

Only if the new stuff was completely ignoring that his Ultimate state even exists, which doesn't quite seem to be the case.

Ah, that's true.

[Tectorman]

What am I missing that EoZ Gohan is unmistakeably "Ultimate" and not "Base, but changed due to years"?

It's mostly the eyes. They still have the same fully-outlined "intense" appearance, and those massive glasses don't do a good job of hiding them. It's a relatively small visual detail, but in this case it's pretty telling.

Plus, with how we know Saiyans age, Gohan was probably already done growing by the Boo arc's start anyway. Getting another ten years older wouldn't have changed his physique much if at all, or in this case visibly made up for growing weaker.

Again, EoZ Gohan's age is approximately the same as Goku's age when he went from Saiyan Saga not-buff to Namek Saga buff. And he did that in a week. EoZ Gohan's physique could easily be the result of that rather than retaining Ultimate.

As far as the eyes go, I've looked at every single panel where we see EoZ Gohan and I don't see any kind of "intense" look, let alone a tellingly obvious one. Especially when we consider how Toriyama was starting to let the art go at the end of the series.

I mean, if Ultimate had come with permanently-whited-out pupils that EoZ Gohan still had, that would be a telling detail. Heck, even a comment from someone to the effect of "Wow, Gohan, you're still as strong now as you ever were" would provide some kind of indication about which way a reader is supposed to take that scene.

And I'm not saying that there's no way to read EoZ and see Gohan as still Ultimate. But I do not buy that any given reader, reading the manga and only the manga, not influenced by any video games or movies or other media, could only ever read it in such a way as to say to himself, "Hmm, based on the way Gohan looks here, the only possible conclusion is that he still has the Ultimate power-up. Indubitably so." I just don't see how that's a natural and expected thought sequence.

[Hitiro]

Cool translation and now this brings me back to my opening question.

Could he go Super Saiyan at Z and if yes Ultimate is really a transformation instead of a power up.

Further more what benefits will Super Saiyan have if he trains himself to get back to his ultimate form.

As I said in the past... Ultimate while badass and cool
was the worst decision in terms of handling.
Why not simply powering Gohan up like in Namek instead of a silly ritual with a magic transformation co existing and even since GT bringing more questions up as solutions

And if he as in the Frieza arc could go Super Saiyan on top why not used against Buutenks?

I would say that after he did the Ultimate power-up he basically had that power regardless. Not really a form but more like a permanent uncapping of his limitations up to a certain point. With regard to his bodies condition of course. SSJ achieves a similar sort of process but it alters the body in certain ways to achieve this. Muscle growth for one. Essentially it would be something like:

Base Saiyan: Original limit
SSJ: 5,000% Original limit
SSJ2: 10,000% Original limit
SSJ3: 40,000% Original limit

Ultimate Saiyan: 80,000% Original limit

Also, I would say that yes, Gohan could go SSJ after he received this power-up that unlocked his potential "way way past his limits" but I would assume that A) It would be bad for Gohan to go any further past his limits than Ultimate Gohan already provides as the power-up only protects him up until this point. B) The Daizenshuu suggest that SSJ forms unlock your potential and that SSJ3 unlocks it to the very limit(And by limit I would see this as how much the body can handle in the SSJ forms). Ultimate Gohan takes him way past the limit already so he may not gain any benefit.