So has GT been forgiven yet?

[Luke Groundwalker]

While people will inevitably compare Super to GT, which is flawed comparison to even begin with as Super is still airing, I think GT should be judged on its own merits, and respectively, I still don't like the show as a whole and see it as waste of huge potential. I don't think people should be forgiving to GT just because of a new long running Dragon Ball show that hasn't lived up to all their exception as of yet. That shouldn't negate all the crap that GT pulled. It was a bad show then, and it still is now.

I think the main point the OP was trying to make though, is that Super has been guilty of many of the same things that people used to justify their hatred of GT. From that perspective, it can seem a bit odd for someone to love Super, but hate GT.

Such as? Any specific examples?

[Luso Saiyan]

One of the things I really don't understand is how GT is hated and Super is loved for the exact same reasons.

What a baseless generalization.

And there's nothing to forgive. People either accept it or ignore it, just like everything else.

[precita]

Reasons I like Super more than GT:

- The Goku Black/Trunks arc is so far better and more interesting than any of GT's arcs.

- The Champa tournament was OK for what it was, I prefer it over most of GT

- Beerus and Whis are both great characters, and I love the whole 12 universes concept with all these other gods and kai's


Other than that, I also prefer stuff like Goku not being a kid (obviously), Vegeta not being sidelined with a bad haircut, Future Trunks returning, and so far Krillin and Piccolo are handled slightly better than their GT selves. But Super still neglects a lot of characters like Gohan, Goten, and Piccolo/Krillin don't have much to do.

[WittyUsername]

While people will inevitably compare Super to GT, which is flawed comparison to even begin with as Super is still airing, I think GT should be judged on its own merits, and respectively, I still don't like the show as a whole and see it as waste of huge potential. I don't think people should be forgiving to GT just because of a new long running Dragon Ball show that hasn't lived up to all their exception as of yet. That shouldn't negate all the crap that GT pulled. It was a bad show then, and it still is now.

I think the main point the OP was trying to make though, is that Super has been guilty of many of the same things that people used to justify their hatred of GT. From that perspective, it can seem a bit odd for someone to love Super, but hate GT.

Such as? Any specific examples?

You know those complaints people had about how characters like Gohan were completely overshadowed by Goku in GT? Super hasn't exactly been any better in that regard.

[Luke Groundwalker]

I think the main point the OP was trying to make though, is that Super has been guilty of many of the same things that people used to justify their hatred of GT. From that perspective, it can seem a bit odd for someone to love Super, but hate GT.

Such as? Any specific examples?

You know those complaints people had about how characters like Gohan were completely overshadowed by Goku in GT? Super hasn't exactly been any better in that regard.

I disagree entirely. The fact that they just dedicated an entire episode to showcasing Gohan living in peace and how it's not that bad relative to what it could'ev been (aka Future Gohan) should prove the comparison faulty. That alone is more characterization and development than anything in GT related to Gohan. Gohan also got a lot more screentime in action in the Ressurrection F arc than he ever did in GT either.

GT didn't even care to explain to us why Gohan was being shafted, even when he tried fighting it's never quite explained how he's weaker or anything of that sort (the audience is left to speculate and presume). In Super there's a whole character arc dedicating to showcasing Gohan's struggle to balance his martial arts strength with his family and career life. And then the arc came to a close in the recent episode showcasing that Gohan's way of living isn't a bad thing.

[TheGreatness25]

While people will inevitably compare Super to GT, which is flawed comparison to even begin with as Super is still airing, I think GT should be judged on its own merits, and respectively, I still don't like the show as a whole and see it as waste of huge potential. I don't think people should be forgiving to GT just because of a new long running Dragon Ball show that hasn't lived up to all their exception as of yet. That shouldn't negate all the crap that GT pulled. It was a bad show then, and it still is now.

I think the main point the OP was trying to make though, is that Super has been guilty of many of the same things that people used to justify their hatred of GT. From that perspective, it can seem a bit odd for someone to love Super, but hate GT.

Such as? Any specific examples?

I am putting it out there that I did not watch Super, but I have watched the movies and am basing this post on that plus what I know of Super through here.

1. Characters being overshadowed by Goku
Ever heard the fans mocking GT by calling it "Goku Time?" If Goku defeats everyone in Super, there's the first thing that Super and GT share.

2. Gohan
People complained about hours role in GT and yet, he had a nice fighting scene against Goten, Vegeta (when he was under Baby's control) and even put on the gi to lend a hand in the end. Super kind of didn't even have him do that.

Then, a biggie was the "inconsistency" that Gohan could turn into a Super Saiyan in GT. Of course the popular theory was that Gohan lost that ability when Old Kaioshin powered him up, so Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan was seen as an inconsistency. Well... Super.

3. The Characters' Powers
People saod that GT's characters were unreasonably overpowered and all of this was based on Goku comparing Rildo to Majin Boo and then the fans over analyzing the fighting scenes. In fact, besides that, there was nothing in GT that really made it seem like they were ridiculously over powered. In Super, somehow base Goku was not note powerful than Freeza or something, but with all of this God stuff, are the characters not headed in a direction that will see them being tremendously overpowered?

4. Saiyan Hair
Don't know how many of you guys lived through this one, but as early as 2003/2004 the great complaint appeared: "How could Vegeta grow a mustache and change his hair when he said that a Saiyan's hair doesn't change from the day they are born!?" I'm not sure if this was real, but didn't Goku and Vegeta get beards in Super?

5. Pilaf and His Crew
Also not one I particularly encountered on here, but there was a rumbling about the impossibility of Pilaf and the gang being alive in GT. That stems from the Earth being destroyed in Z and only "good" people being wished back; so how could those three be brought back? I was always on the side that they weren't exactly the most evil three in the world, but alas, that was an argument. As we see, they're alive and well in Super.

6. Goku's "Stupid" Way of Achieving Super Saiyan 4
Yet another one floating around not particularly from here, but there was some weird complaint about how Goku transformed into a Golden Great Ape by looking at the Earth. Somehow, that shouldn't have worked for one reason or another. It was seen as a really stupid and convenient way for Goku to transform. Well, I'm Super, how did Goku achieve Super Saiyan God? They stand in a circle and hold hands and what a coincidence! Pan can help just in time!

7. Vegeta Skipped Super Saiyan 3 and Jumped to 4
Much like he skipped 3 and God to get to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

8. Super Saiyan 4 Goku Has Pink Fur!
Yet another one not particularly from here, but I've seen this. Well... Super Saiyan God also is pink a lot of the time. Besides, what's wrong with pink?

9. Hell
The Hell in GT was unlike the Hell in Z and unlike the Hell described in the manga. Well, Toriyama re-wrote his own vision of Hell for Resurrection F.

10. Animation Looks Bad
People would point out the strange faces that the characters would get every now and then and the fact that the attacks looked underwhelming (see Gohan vs Baby-Goten). Well, Super isn't exactly known for its phenomenal animation either.

11. It's Not Canon!
People really do care that Toriyama didn't write it. Well... what about Super?

12. Pre-Teen Drama
It is sincerely gross that an 8 year old Bra dresses the way she does and acts the way she does in GT. Super has its own little pre-teen controversy with Mai. It's not in the same way, but how weird is it for this particular issue (pre-teens' interaction wirth adults) would appear in both series?



I mean there are probably more, but those are all the ones I can think of for now. A lot of them seem dumb and nitpicky, right? Well, that's because they are. The problem is that back in the day, a lot of people used that stuff to argue that GT sucked. And I'd really understand if people just said, "I just didn't like it, it didn't feel like Dragon Ball to me, it was boring, it had sucky pacing, and I just wished it would die." But instead, people would mask their very legitimate dislike with all this stuff. In many, many ways, Super is making the mistakes that GT made from a story perspective, to a design perspective, to a production perspective.

Now remember: a lot of those things aren't complaints I necessarily saw at Kanzenshuu. But I've been around DB forums since 2003 and that's my experience. If you want, check out YouTube videos on what's wrong with GT and see how many of those "issues" appear in Super.

[Luke Groundwalker]

To be honest, TheGreatness25, a lot of those issues aren't only things that happens in both GT and Super but as well as Z and even arguably in Dragonball. People tend to scapegoat to figure out issues with GT, and honestly none of the reasons you list are really all that valid as criticisms anyway (which I'm sure you agree on) outside of a few examples. But I do want to address these:

Gohan - See my post above on why I think Super gives Gohan a lot more justice than GT ever did.
Vegeta skipping SSJ3 - It isn't really comparable cause SSJ4 is supposed to be the next step AFTER SSJ3, despite it's unsual way of obtaining the form. SSJGod is a separate mode tapping into God Ki. And Super as a series reinforces that anything above SSJ1 isn't that necessary when you have the power of the Gods. So Vegeta skipping SSJ3 in GT is...weird. Not really a huge deal though.
Super being canon - Toriyama plotted entire arcs. While he didn't "write" it so to speak, the plots and character designs as well as the stories being told in general are all Toriyama. There is some inconsistencies obviously but even if you attribute that to TOEI's handiwork, Toriyama has inconsistencies in the original manga already so we really can't pinpoint who is to blame here.

[WittyUsername]

Such as? Any specific examples?

You know those complaints people had about how characters like Gohan were completely overshadowed by Goku in GT? Super hasn't exactly been any better in that regard.

I disagree entirely. The fact that they just dedicated an entire episode to showcasing Gohan living in peace and how it's not that bad relative to what it could'ev been (aka Future Gohan) should prove the comparison faulty. That alone is more characterization and development than anything in GT related to Gohan. Gohan also got a lot more screentime in action in the Ressurrection F arc than he ever did in GT either.

GT didn't even care to explain to us why Gohan was being shafted, even when he tried fighting it's never quite explained how he's weaker or anything of that sort (the audience is left to speculate and presume). In Super there's a whole character arc dedicating to showcasing Gohan's struggle to balance his martial arts strength with his family and career life. And then the arc came to a close in the recent episode showcasing that Gohan's way of living isn't a bad thing.

I'm pretty sure the general complaint that people had towards Gohan in GT was due to the fact that that he was no longer the strongest character, as well as the fact that he rarely took part in any fights. Again, Super really hasn't been any better in that regard. Whenever we have seen him fight, he's basically just served as a punching bag. Even his fights in RoF were basically just with fodder, and he was no match for Freeza in his weakest form.

For the record, I'm not really a big GT fan, but Super frankly has many of the same problems that people used to justify their disdain for GT.

[Cetra]

Vegeta skipping SSJ3 - It isn't really comparable cause SSJ4 is supposed to be the next step AFTER SSJ3, despite it's unsual way of obtaining the form.

It is not. SSJ3 has nothing to do with SSJ4. 4 is more than 3. And that's it. It is not part of the same transformation chain.

[ryou766]

Vegeta skipping SSJ3 - It isn't really comparable cause SSJ4 is supposed to be the next step AFTER SSJ3, despite it's unsual way of obtaining the form.

It is not. SSJ3 has nothing to do with SSJ4. 4 is more than 3. And that's it. It is not part of the same transformation chain.

Right. SS4 may be above SS-3 in power but I don't necessarily see it as a fourth stage to the original SS transformation. SS4 is its own thing. Based on how Elder Kaioshin was familiar with SS4, there might have been one in the past.

[Cetra]

Vegeta skipping SSJ3 - It isn't really comparable cause SSJ4 is supposed to be the next step AFTER SSJ3, despite it's unsual way of obtaining the form.

It is not. SSJ3 has nothing to do with SSJ4. 4 is more than 3. And that's it. It is not part of the same transformation chain.

Right. SS4 may be above SS-3 in power but I don't necessarily see it as a fourth stage to the original SS transformation. SS4 is its own thing. Based on how Elder Kaioshin was familiar with SS4, there might have been one in the past.

I do not really think that he was "really familiar" with it. It was just like "oh it worked, another stage. let's give it a name". I mean - come on. Who do we think gave the forms the name "SSJ2", "SSJ3", et cetera? It obviously was the characters themselves. Those were new stronger forms they achieved so they gave them a name to differentiate.

[ryou766]

Personally, I was never a fan of the lack of originality when it came to SS transformation naming. But the names exceeding the original SS were all given by Goku, so it being simple would make sense.

[Cetra]

I think this simplicity is fine. It shows that there is another version with its own advantages, even if it is simply just a stronger form. I mean, yes, Super Saiyajin God is very over the top and exaggerated but it does its job of giving the very blunt and simple impression of being a stronger form.

[Luke Groundwalker]

I'm pretty sure the general complaint that people had towards Gohan in GT was due to the fact that that he was no longer the strongest character, as well as the fact that he rarely took part in any fights. Again, Super really hasn't been any better in that regard. Whenever we have seen him fight, he's basically just served as a punching bag. Even his fights in RoF were basically just with fodder, and he was no match for Freeza in his weakest form.

For the record, I'm not really a big GT fan, but Super frankly has many of the same problems that people used to justify their disdain for GT.

Yeah if you could careless for the character arcs in the series I suppose that would be the main complaint. Again, Super actually makes due and recently dedicated an entire episode explaining and showing the audience an actual character transition for Gohan that while has it's issues in of itself, still made an attempt to tell a story there. GT never did that, and instead the audience is to just assume Gohan is weaker because of unknown reasons.

It is not. SSJ3 has nothing to do with SSJ4. 4 is more than 3. And that's it. It is not part of the same transformation chain.

I know it's essentially a different form, I'm saying from a naming convention standpoint in theory it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why Vegeta doesn't go SSJ3. SSJ4 never should've been called SSJ4 is what I'm largely getting at.

[Cetra]

I know it's essentially a different form, I'm saying from a naming convention standpoint in theory it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why Vegeta doesn't go SSJ3. SSJ4 never should've been called SSJ4 is what I'm largely getting at.

Fair enough, but as said for the sake of keeping it simple, and it is even known that they just wanted to keep it convenient, it is fine to call it "SSJ4". I personally would also like a name like "Lunar Saiyajin". But on the other hand "Super Saiyajin 4" just already sounds so powerful and I love that.

[Hellspawn28]

Goku has lost to Beerus, Frost and Hit in Super. In GT, Goku mainly won most of his fights expect for his first battle with Bebi Vegeta. The other times he won or won with the help with the others. I don't think Super has become "Goku wins the day" show just yet.

[Cetra]

Goku has lost to Beerus, Frost and Hit in Super. In GT, Goku mainly won most of his fights expect for his first battle with Bebi Vegeta. The other times he won or won with the help with the others. I don't think Super has become "Goku wins the day" show just yet.

In Z whenever Goku wins with the help of others or he contributes a lot to it, people do not count it. Why do you count it in GT? I am fine if you count it in GT but I wonder if you also discount it in Z like others do.

[TheMikado]

You know those complaints people had about how characters like Gohan were completely overshadowed by Goku in GT? Super hasn't exactly been any better in that regard.

I disagree entirely. The fact that they just dedicated an entire episode to showcasing Gohan living in peace and how it's not that bad relative to what it could'ev been (aka Future Gohan) should prove the comparison faulty. That alone is more characterization and development than anything in GT related to Gohan. Gohan also got a lot more screentime in action in the Ressurrection F arc than he ever did in GT either.

GT didn't even care to explain to us why Gohan was being shafted, even when he tried fighting it's never quite explained how he's weaker or anything of that sort (the audience is left to speculate and presume). In Super there's a whole character arc dedicating to showcasing Gohan's struggle to balance his martial arts strength with his family and career life. And then the arc came to a close in the recent episode showcasing that Gohan's way of living isn't a bad thing.

I don't think that's really true. They showed Gohan as being relatively happy and he basically became the person he wanted to be post Cell, going to school by day and helping when he could. It seems unnecessary to double down on that at this point in the series after literal decades both in universe and out of universe. If Future Trunks never showed up we wouldn't have even had this discussion. It just seems like the writers were specifically trying to make an excuse to Gohan fans by addressing this disappoint rather letting the character just be that character.

[TheMikado]

Goku has lost to Beerus, Frost and Hit in Super. In GT, Goku mainly won most of his fights expect for his first battle with Bebi Vegeta. The other times he won or won with the help with the others. I don't think Super has become "Goku wins the day" show just yet.

Have you actually watched GT?? Because he also lost to Rildo, and got blinded by a shadow dragon. He had some pretty tough moments.
Goku was also beating by Golden Frieza...

Anyway, in GT Goku IS the star and its clear from the get go. The even ship them off to space so we don't have to constantly ask "Where is everyone else"?
GT gives the characters far more respect to live their lives separate from Goku and Friends. Like why in the world are Piccolo and Krillin doing garden work?!?
In Super, everyone in one form or another is there to make Goku look good or tell his story. In GT, every character gets to live life independently from Goku for a change.

[Hellspawn28]

I remember Goku was fighting Metallica Rildo just fine before Pan show up causing him to be turn into metal. I think Goku would have defeat him since Goku would have use SSj3 to win. Goku defeated all of the Shadow Dragons (Some of the fights are bull shit like the 5th Shadow Dragon. But he still won at the end of the day). Goku has more wins in GT then he does in DBZ and Super.

Like why in the world are Piccolo and Krillin doing garden work?!?

Probably they are friends with Chi Chi and Bluma. Not to mention, it gives them something to do.