So has GT been forgiven yet?

[TheGreatness25]

Yeah if you could careless for the character arcs in the series I suppose that would be the main complaint. Again, Super actually makes due and recently dedicated an entire episode explaining and showing the audience an actual character transition for Gohan that while has it's issues in of itself, still made an attempt to tell a story there. GT never did that, and instead the audience is to just assume Gohan is weaker because of unknown reasons.

But... that's not really true. GT didn't make Gohan like that; they were continuing his characterization from the ending of Z. In the end of Z, Gohan has no interest in the Tenkaichi Budokai, he's seen carrying around books and generally being a family man. GT takes that and rolls with it. It's pretty much obvious why Gohan isn't the spectacular warrior in GT as in the Boo arc. Did GT really need to explain the obvious character development that was never explained by the end of Z? Much in the same way that Vegeta was domesticated in GT. Do people think that it was out of nowhere? Maybe -- just maybe -- the way Vegeta dresses and behaves stems from the fact that in the end of Z, he's wearing normal clothing and like sweatpants with a Capsule Corp. shirt in the Tenkaichi Budokai?

People act as if the characters in GT just magically became that way with no explanation when really, the transitions are rather obvious and I will say that not one character in Z takes a departure from his or her portrayal at the end of Z. I defy anyone to prove me otherwise. Goten was into girls and not fighting... like in the end of Z. Trunks didn't care for fighting... like in the end of Z. The same is true for any background character. The only two characters that got different personalities were Pan and Bra -- a 3 and 4 year old during Z where one was a spunky kid and one had no lines.

People act like GT never dove into the characters, but that's not true. We know what Pan's normal life is like; we see it in the very first episode. We know Goten's character (his date with Palace, interaction with Gohan, Chichi, etc.). We know Trunks is the figurehead of Capsule Corp., which only makes sense. We see a lot of these characters in their everyday life, which does build on the character. GT had a pacing issue, but the theory is that they were tanking and needed to light a fire under their ass and speed through the thing as if it were on speed.

If you just didn't like how GT presented the characters and how it built upon them, just say so. But don't say GT didn't do it. Bringing up one episode that focused on Gohan in Super doesn't really do anything. Yeah, it affirms that he doesn't want to fight and he wants to be a family man. That's not news. I'm sure it's a very sweet episode, but is it necessary? That's like having an episode on Vegeta training. We get it: that's what he does.

That's my big problem with GT haters: they can never just say that they didn't like it. They have to start coming up with dumb little reasons and then pretending that when the same thing happens in Super, the circumstances are somehow different. You can't claim that one of the reasons you hate GT is because it pushed the background characters to the side and then turn around and say "it's different" when Super does the same. If you hated that Gohan was weak and didn't do much in GT, how can that get a pass in Super? Because they explained it to you? You really needed that expansion? It wasn't obvious?

At least Gohan isn't the silliest adult in GT. I saw that scene in Super. He becomes Great Saiyaman to go chase Pan as she's flying around and Gohan was seriously agitated. That's how he reacts to agitation: being silly? I mean, come on. That gets a pass but not GT?

You see, it's okay to just dislike something just because you do. If you dislike the color green, you don't have to come up with a thesis on why; you just dislike it. If you dislike GT, that's okay; I dislike many animes. The problem is that people try to justify their dislike by listing a bunch of irrelevant nonsense as the reason that has kind of come full circle and now a lot of people are trying to pretend like whatever they disliked about GT hadn't crept up in Super. Want to know a fun one? When you're part of a fan community, lots of times you see that people want to fit in with the majority opinion and it unintentionally actually becomes their opinion. There are people that dislike GT and preface their statements with "Now I never actually watched GT, but..." The human mind is very easily influenced. Not to change things up, but if I recall, the DBZ dub wasn't exactly suffering in the ratings. I went through three schools (elementary, Jr high, high school) where not one person ever said that the voices or dialog were bad. The popular thing became to hate on the dub and that's fine, but loving the original doesn't mean automatically hating the dub; both can be enjoyed. But the battle lines have clearly been drawn. Now most people act as if they never liked the dub in the first place. Well, I call B.S. It's the same with GT. GT sold well. People were excited to watch GT. I remember people watching every day all happy. Now what? Suddenly you have an easier time finding Atlantis than a GT fan. So, if you hate GT because it's the "cool thing" to do or you legitimately hate it because it was boring or it didn't resonate well with you, that's fine! We all have the right to an opinion! But trying to put a BS reason for it and then saying "Well it's different in Super!" when it's really the same thing is kinda silly.

Geez, I feel like I'm writing a freaking novel. Sorry, guys; I get excited.

[VegettoEX]

At least Gohan isn't the silliest adult in GT. I saw that scene in Super. He becomes Great Saiyaman to go chase Pan as she's flying around and Gohan was seriously agitated. That's how he reacts to agitation: being silly? I mean, come on. That gets a pass but not GT?

I saw nothing wrong with the situation. He's a dad dealing with his infant child. Infants respond to bright colors. They respond positively to familiar faces (read: parents). He's trying to get his child's attention, get her to calm down, and do so by amusing her.

This... all kinda checks out, to me!

[TheGreatness25]

I mean he could've just swooped up and got her if he didn't get the Saiyaman outfit out. And he was kinda struggling too. I feel like it was done just to have you go, "Oh, right, Saiyaman is a thing still." If he's "retired" from fighting, does he use that costume to make charity appearances now? I don't know, it all seemed kinda silly.

[Luso Saiyan]

He's a dad playing with his young daughter. Is that such an alien behaviour to you? What's so hard to understand?

[TheGreatness25]

Um didn't look like he was playing. It looked like she did something annoying to him and that was his response. Why you getting so worked up for?

By the way, if you're asking me whether dressing up in a goofy costume to fly up and catch my kid who flew away from me is an alien concept, then yes. I can say with a degree of certainty that none of us will ever do that.

[ryou766]

When he was "chasing" after her, his tone of voice deemed playful and not in an annoyed sense.

[Luso Saiyan]

Um didn't look like he was playing.

Seriously? What would it take to make it even more obvious?

It looked like she did something annoying to him and that was his response.

Yes, a perfectly normal response considering it's a kid too young to know any better. He knows that, hence why he's playing pretend with her.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Yeah if you could careless for the character arcs in the series I suppose that would be the main complaint. Again, Super actually makes due and recently dedicated an entire episode explaining and showing the audience an actual character transition for Gohan that while has it's issues in of itself, still made an attempt to tell a story there. GT never did that, and instead the audience is to just assume Gohan is weaker because of unknown reasons.

But... that's not really true. GT didn't make Gohan like that; they were continuing his characterization from the ending of Z. In the end of Z, Gohan has no interest in the Tenkaichi Budokai, he's seen carrying around books and generally being a family man. GT takes that and rolls with it. It's pretty much obvious why Gohan isn't the spectacular warrior in GT as in the Boo arc. Did GT really need to explain the obvious character development that was never explained by the end of Z? Much in the same way that Vegeta was domesticated in GT. Do people think that it was out of nowhere? Maybe -- just maybe -- the way Vegeta dresses and behaves stems from the fact that in the end of Z, he's wearing normal clothing and like sweatpants with a Capsule Corp. shirt in the Tenkaichi Budokai?

People act as if the characters in GT just magically became that way with no explanation when really, the transitions are rather obvious and I will say that not one character in Z takes a departure from his or her portrayal at the end of Z. I defy anyone to prove me otherwise. Goten was into girls and not fighting... like in the end of Z. Trunks didn't care for fighting... like in the end of Z. The same is true for any background character. The only two characters that got different personalities were Pan and Bra -- a 3 and 4 year old during Z where one was a spunky kid and one had no lines.

People act like GT never dove into the characters, but that's not true. We know what Pan's normal life is like; we see it in the very first episode. We know Goten's character (his date with Palace, interaction with Gohan, Chichi, etc.). We know Trunks is the figurehead of Capsule Corp., which only makes sense. We see a lot of these characters in their everyday life, which does build on the character. GT had a pacing issue, but the theory is that they were tanking and needed to light a fire under their ass and speed through the thing as if it were on speed.

If you just didn't like how GT presented the characters and how it built upon them, just say so. But don't say GT didn't do it. Bringing up one episode that focused on Gohan in Super doesn't really do anything. Yeah, it affirms that he doesn't want to fight and he wants to be a family man. That's not news. I'm sure it's a very sweet episode, but is it necessary? That's like having an episode on Vegeta training. We get it: that's what he does.

That's my big problem with GT haters: they can never just say that they didn't like it. They have to start coming up with dumb little reasons and then pretending that when the same thing happens in Super, the circumstances are somehow different. You can't claim that one of the reasons you hate GT is because it pushed the background characters to the side and then turn around and say "it's different" when Super does the same. If you hated that Gohan was weak and didn't do much in GT, how can that get a pass in Super? Because they explained it to you? You really needed that expansion? It wasn't obvious?

At least Gohan isn't the silliest adult in GT. I saw that scene in Super. He becomes Great Saiyaman to go chase Pan as she's flying around and Gohan was seriously agitated. That's how he reacts to agitation: being silly? I mean, come on. That gets a pass but not GT?

I'm confused on what the criticism is here. You admit that Gohan being a family man has been an idea since End of Z, yet criticize the fact that Dragonball Super, a midquel series, makes amends to actually explain how that transition happens, somehow makes it "just as bad" as it was in GT or the "same" as GT which makes absolutely no attempt at explaining any character development or showcasing it...ever. I'm not saying GT needs to have character development or anything of that sort to be a fun and entertaining series (which I do feel about GT), but rather Super having that character development already makes the depiction of Gohan superior in it than it ever was in GT. Yes the end result is the same for both, because it's based on how Gohan was at End of Z, but adding a character arc adds a lot to that transition from warrior to professor that GT never provided or even attempted to provide.

[TheGreatness25]

I didn't criticize anything about Super's Gohan. I'm saying that it's something that fans hated about GT, yet forgive it in Super (clearly not all fans though) just because they dedicated -- what, an episode to showing you that he's a family man (as if it weren't obvious) after three arcs passed by? Just to clarify: I don't care that he's a family man and stopped training or fighting. And my whole point was that it springboards from the end of Z. But people have a problem with it in GT as if GT radically changed his character and that's simply not the case. I was illustrating that fans would use a slew of silly criticisms of GT and ignore those same things in Super. I'm just saying that a lot of the criticism of GT is just nitpicky crap, also found in Super. The real criticism of GT has nothing to do with "power scaling" and "feats" and whatever else; the real problems are pacing, it's pretty boring, the depressing color scheme, etc. Those are legitimate criticisms. Someone saying that they gate GT because Gohan is "useless" in it is also a valid criticism, but it's not a GT thing and if that's overlooked for Super by the same person, I just have to call it out.

[Luke Groundwalker]

I didn't criticize anything about Super's Gohan. I'm saying that it's something that fans hated about GT, yet forgive it in Super (clearly not all fans though) just because they dedicated -- what, an episode to showing you that he's a family man (as if it weren't obvious) after three arcs passed by? Just to clarify: I don't care that he's a family man and stopped training or fighting. And my whole point was that it springboards from the end of Z. But people have a problem with it in GT as if GT radically changed his character and that's simply not the case. I was illustrating that fans would use a slew of silly criticisms of GT and ignore those same things in Super. I'm just saying that a lot of the criticism of GT is just nitpicky crap, also found in Super. The real criticism of GT has nothing to do with "power scaling" and "feats" and whatever else; the real problems are pacing, it's pretty boring, the depressing color scheme, etc. Those are legitimate criticisms. Someone saying that they gate GT because Gohan is "useless" in it is also a valid criticism, but it's not a GT thing and if that's overlooked for Super by the same person, I just have to call it out.

Yeah but that's just scapegoating on their part, lol. What I'm saying here is that ultimately GT can't be forgiven just because Super shares some things with it that people view as "problems" with the series, when the core execution of both series, good and bad, are drastically different from each other.

Super has genuine worldbuilding (as in not one episode filler that rarely gets mentioned again), which GT (or the other two series) do not. Super has fast-paced action that feels more akin to what people grew to love about Z's action, GT has slow-paced action that had Z's ideas of ki spam but never made use of the slower pace like the original Dragonball series did. Super has decently sized character arcs, GT does not. There's a lot of reasons why people enjoy Super over GT that Dragonball GT never provided, and that wouldn't change if Super ended up literally retelling the three major GT arcs Battle of Gods/Resurrection F style. And yes, while the "canon" argument is tiresome, it does help having Toriyama being actively involved with the story and character design process as well as supervising everything outside of OKing it, since it makes sure it retains the original feel of the Dragonball series.

Having similar elements to each other does not immediately make the criticism of GT (and praise of Super) moot whatsoever. Hell a lot of those "similar elements" come from the original manga!

[TheGreatness25]

In any event, I really hope that when I watch Super, it'll be entertaining. I never had a problem with GT and even enjoyed the PS1 video games (I'm not saying they're good, but I enjoyed them) so I've always been pretty forgiving with DB stuff... but then again, I've never experienced new DB content as a jaded adult before.

[SSJ Human]

He's a dad playing with his young daughter. Is that such an alien behaviour to you? What's so hard to understand?

Maybe he just isn't familiar with the situation because he doesn't have kids and thereby can't place himself in Gohan's shoes. Either that or he just doesn't agree with Gohan's actions.

[TheGreatness25]

He's a dad playing with his young daughter. Is that such an alien behaviour to you? What's so hard to understand?

Maybe he just isn't familiar with the situation because he doesn't have kids and thereby can't place himself in Gohan's shoes. Either that or he just doesn't agree with Gohan's actions.

When I saw it, it doesn't look like he was playing. It looked like he was frustrated when she flew up and he got out the Saiyaman costume to go catch her even though he could've just flown up and gotten her. Whatever, great, that's how he plays. To me, it came off as this dude seriously put on his superhero attire to go fly up and catch her. If I misinterpreted, my bad.

[Luso Saiyan]

Maybe he just isn't familiar with the situation because he doesn't have kids and thereby can't place himself in Gohan's shoes.

You don't need to be a parent to understand what he's doing (or acknowledge how normal it is).

Heck, he even spells it out later in the episode when he's talking to Trunks on the swing.

[Zephyr]

I forgave GT when I actually went back and rewatched it. The Baby arc has some bumps in the road a little after the prologue, but once Baby is introduced things are pretty cool. The Super 17 arc is just really fucking fun, and gets far more flack than it deserves. The Evil Dragons arc still to this day presents arguably the best capstone story that we've been given to the series: the titular plot devices backfiring and creating the ultimate villains. The final arc's execution (specifically with the first four dragons) certainly leaves a lot to be desired, but it was still pretty good. And that final episode is stellar on its own.

I would forgive GT even without Super existing. It simply gets far more flack than it deserves. A lot of the mental gymnastics you have to do to make GT "work" are along the same path that the manga itself requires.

That said, with Super existing, there's even more to appreciate with GT. The music isn't as bad as Super's (Sumitomo's newest stuff aside), the art style isn't as bad as Super's, and it's moved forward in time, rather than being temporally stagnant. It also has the benefit of being made right after the original series ended, so it's still got that energy and momentum that the original series had, fresh on its heels. Feels more like a direct continuation, rather than something 20 years later attempting to be one. And the slice of life moments in GT are really fucking great in comparison to the vast majority of Super's (which isn't to say that Super doesn't have it's moments; Vegeta and his family hanging out probably make up my favorite bits of the anime).

[SSJ Human]

Maybe he just isn't familiar with the situation because he doesn't have kids and thereby can't place himself in Gohan's shoes.

You don't need to be a parent to understand what he's doing (or acknowledge how normal it is).

Heck, he even spells it out later in the episode when he's talking to Trunks on the swing.

I understood it. I'm just giving reasons for why he didn't.

[shinmaru]

If Super had the same production quality as GT it would have been one of the best Dragon Ball series.
GT looks great, but the story is weak Super looks weak, but the story is great

[Gold_Jacobson]

[spoiler]

Yeah if you could careless for the character arcs in the series I suppose that would be the main complaint. Again, Super actually makes due and recently dedicated an entire episode explaining and showing the audience an actual character transition for Gohan that while has it's issues in of itself, still made an attempt to tell a story there. GT never did that, and instead the audience is to just assume Gohan is weaker because of unknown reasons.

But... that's not really true. GT didn't make Gohan like that; they were continuing his characterization from the ending of Z. In the end of Z, Gohan has no interest in the Tenkaichi Budokai, he's seen carrying around books and generally being a family man. GT takes that and rolls with it. It's pretty much obvious why Gohan isn't the spectacular warrior in GT as in the Boo arc. Did GT really need to explain the obvious character development that was never explained by the end of Z? Much in the same way that Vegeta was domesticated in GT. Do people think that it was out of nowhere? Maybe -- just maybe -- the way Vegeta dresses and behaves stems from the fact that in the end of Z, he's wearing normal clothing and like sweatpants with a Capsule Corp. shirt in the Tenkaichi Budokai?

People act as if the characters in GT just magically became that way with no explanation when really, the transitions are rather obvious and I will say that not one character in Z takes a departure from his or her portrayal at the end of Z. I defy anyone to prove me otherwise. Goten was into girls and not fighting... like in the end of Z. Trunks didn't care for fighting... like in the end of Z. The same is true for any background character. The only two characters that got different personalities were Pan and Bra -- a 3 and 4 year old during Z where one was a spunky kid and one had no lines.

People act like GT never dove into the characters, but that's not true. We know what Pan's normal life is like; we see it in the very first episode. We know Goten's character (his date with Palace, interaction with Gohan, Chichi, etc.). We know Trunks is the figurehead of Capsule Corp., which only makes sense. We see a lot of these characters in their everyday life, which does build on the character. GT had a pacing issue, but the theory is that they were tanking and needed to light a fire under their ass and speed through the thing as if it were on speed.

If you just didn't like how GT presented the characters and how it built upon them, just say so. But don't say GT didn't do it. Bringing up one episode that focused on Gohan in Super doesn't really do anything. Yeah, it affirms that he doesn't want to fight and he wants to be a family man. That's not news. I'm sure it's a very sweet episode, but is it necessary? That's like having an episode on Vegeta training. We get it: that's what he does.

That's my big problem with GT haters: they can never just say that they didn't like it. They have to start coming up with dumb little reasons and then pretending that when the same thing happens in Super, the circumstances are somehow different. You can't claim that one of the reasons you hate GT is because it pushed the background characters to the side and then turn around and say "it's different" when Super does the same. If you hated that Gohan was weak and didn't do much in GT, how can that get a pass in Super? Because they explained it to you? You really needed that expansion? It wasn't obvious?

At least Gohan isn't the silliest adult in GT. I saw that scene in Super. He becomes Great Saiyaman to go chase Pan as she's flying around and Gohan was seriously agitated. That's how he reacts to agitation: being silly? I mean, come on. That gets a pass but not GT?

You see, it's okay to just dislike something just because you do. If you dislike the color green, you don't have to come up with a thesis on why; you just dislike it. If you dislike GT, that's okay; I dislike many animes. The problem is that people try to justify their dislike by listing a bunch of irrelevant nonsense as the reason that has kind of come full circle and now a lot of people are trying to pretend like whatever they disliked about GT hadn't crept up in Super. Want to know a fun one? When you're part of a fan community, lots of times you see that people want to fit in with the majority opinion and it unintentionally actually becomes their opinion. There are people that dislike GT and preface their statements with "Now I never actually watched GT, but..." The human mind is very easily influenced. Not to change things up, but if I recall, the DBZ dub wasn't exactly suffering in the ratings. I went through three schools (elementary, Jr high, high school) where not one person ever said that the voices or dialog were bad. The popular thing became to hate on the dub and that's fine, but loving the original doesn't mean automatically hating the dub; both can be enjoyed. But the battle lines have clearly been drawn. Now most people act as if they never liked the dub in the first place. Well, I call B.S. It's the same with GT. GT sold well. People were excited to watch GT. I remember people watching every day all happy. Now what? Suddenly you have an easier time finding Atlantis than a GT fan. So, if you hate GT because it's the "cool thing" to do or you legitimately hate it because it was boring or it didn't resonate well with you, that's fine! We all have the right to an opinion! But trying to put a BS reason for it and then saying "Well it's different in Super!" when it's really the same thing is kinda silly.

Geez, I feel like I'm writing a freaking novel. Sorry, guys; I get excited.

[/spoiler]

Great post. I've always wanted to write out those exact thoughts.

[sintzu]

In any event, I really hope that when I watch Super, it'll be entertaining.

You'll enjoy it if you keep your expectations really low.

[ABED]

In any event, I really hope that when I watch Super, it'll be entertaining.

You'll enjoy it if you keep your expectations really low.

That goes for life in general. Keep your expectations low enough and it won't disappoint.