Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[saiyanvegetable]

And now on topic, so excited to see what Shida's going to do. His cut in BoG is the best in all of modern Dragon Ball.

People say this a lot and I don't really like that cut in BOG, it seems out of place for Dragonball. But hell yeah, its damn good.

[Avok]

And now on topic, so excited to see what Shida's going to do. His cut in BoG is the best in all of modern Dragon Ball.

People say this a lot and I don't really like that cut in BOG, it seems out of place for Dragonball. But hell yeah, its damn good.

That's exactly why I like it, because it's how Dragon Ball should be nowadays: frenetic, fast, powerful, with a lot of movement and impact.

I like the martial arts side of the fights, but these are guys that can bust planets with a few punches. The visuals should portray this as well, and that scene does it wonderfully.

[nite_jay]

And now on topic, so excited to see what Shida's going to do. His cut in BoG is the best in all of modern Dragon Ball.

People say this a lot and I don't really like that cut in BOG, it seems out of place for Dragonball. But hell yeah, its damn good.

I like it because it portrays the speed of the fight very nicely, but it also keeps everything visually clear and interesting.

[Zephyr]

It's really the whole "nostalgia goggles" that got to me. The sentiment that people can't enjoy Super because they have this warped view of how amazing Dragonball Z was due to nostalgia is utter bullshit. Quite frankly, it's the other way around.

As with most things, it goes both ways. There are people whose complaints about Super boil down to nostalgia, just like there are people whose praise for Super boils down to nostalgia.

[ArchedThunder]

Yes, but #7 of Attack on Titan involved four external companies for KA, and six more for 2nd KA. And well... #24 speaks for itself.

#47 of Super was a bog standard episode. No outsourcing at all and a perfectly reasonable staff size.

While it's certainly possible to complete an episode in such little time, there's no indication that that was the case with that episode. Everything points to the contrary, in fact.

Don't get me wrong, the schedule isn't in a good place, but regarding those sheets and that episode? Nah. There's nothing particularly out of the ordinary there.

The episodes after that? Sure.

Maybe they're prioritizing Tate's episodes now, that would explain why it seems like he's got so much more space between episodes now while everyone else is still on the 5-6 week cycle. If that's the case I hope Otsuka and Shida are both working on his next episode.

[neolux]

It still suffers from the same issues. For someone so evil, it's pretty silly that a Goku drawing from the 90s looks fiercer. Consider how terrifying Majin Vegeta was at the tournament. Black is bland.

What Ajay says it's true, even a Goku like this looks fiercer than Goku Black.



By the way, Toyotaro's drawing of Black is dope! I wish that the manga was published weekly and that Super anime was an adaptation of the manga.


I have a question for anyone who knows. Lots of people are saying that chapter 14 of the manga is way better than episode 47 which is the episode that corresponds to this chapter of the manga, but is it fair to compare the production of the manga with the production of the animated series?

[nite_jay]

I would think that it's pretty fair; but only because he does the manga basically all alone. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[A Man named RJ]

I have a question for anyone who knows. Lots of people are saying that chapter 14 of the manga is way better than episode 47 which is the episode that corresponds to this chapter of the manga, but is it fair to compare the production of the manga with the production of the animated series?

Apples to Oranges.

A manga is produced alone with the help of some assistants who may help out with screen-toning and backgrounds, but it's mostly a production that holds a significantly smaller number of pages. It has dynamic fight scenes that still need to be choreographed, but the difference between a Manga fight, and an Anime fight is simply that a Manga fight is made of of stills - extreme poses that are designed to be put together by the reader like a puzzle piece, same applies to dialogue and pacing.

Ever read a manga and slow down how you read it during a scene where characters are crying? That's because sad scenes usually have a bit slower of a pace, but that atmosphere is imaginary, and the product of the reader's imagination. If you want a great example of this, hop over to Any One Piece, or Naruto forum (Ap forum in particular was bad with this while I was there, and still kinda is) and listen to ANY user complain about how they THOUGHT a scene was ruined because they pictured it differently, with a different mood, timing and atmosphere. That's the key difference. Manga is "interpretive" and subjective

An Anime has a bit more on it's plate. For one, an anime has to Actually show you events in the most literal, and objective way possible. The two arent mutually exclusive. I'm going to use One Piece as an example of a bad adaptation of a work - and no this isnt me complaining about it's production values, or anything. these issues are the direct result of a lack of creative freedom when writing and directing the anime. Basically, One Piece's anime follows it's manga, to a tee. Including those Still "money shots" Because each fight in the manga has a huge "money shot" the anime does it's damnedest to recapture that shot as LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. so often times you'll see the character moving in, and then a still image (albiet somewhat blurred, and shaking) instead of the action simply playing out naturally. Here's what i mean, we'll compare with a different series in a second:

Original
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Anime adaptation
[spoiler]https://youtu.be/TTNlQp5Ssyg?t=124
[/spoiler]


See how they went to great lengths to make the shots line up? Even with the fancy Sakuga, the director of that episode still found it necessary to do this to the action scene. And if you look around in more adaptation-based series (Shonen battle to be exact) you'll notice this happens a LOT. The reason people praise Bones for their ability to handle adaptations is because often times Bones will take liberties when directing scenes, because when crossing Mediums they sometimes have to have a different flow (Recent example MOB Psycho 100 had it's continuity reworked to flow better). It's also the same reason a lot of the Highest rated anime out there are Anime-original. The anime that are adaptations that usually make it are Spectacular by comparison. I use FMA:B a lot as an example because it's probably the best example of this i can find.
The manga had an explicit pacing most of Ed's and Al's backsstories were handled around chapter 20 or so. the anime moves this entire backstory to EPISODE 2 and make an anime-only first episode with a one-off villain that helps to foreshadow the entire series afterward, and managed to introduce the characters and their personalities much quicker. Then the story goes on in it's particular case skipping over a few chapters , but the prescense of those characters is never actually gone, and it helps maintain the momentum. Now granted, The Youswell story arc probably should have been left alone, but the point is the pacing was tweaked to get a much better sense of the whole story much quicker.

Also it was much more liberal (Original scene v.s. Adaptation) with it came to how action was handled, and became a visual masterpiece in my own eyes.

See that example I listed? It would have been "well enough" to simply adapt that scene by each beat in the manga (like the One piece one beefore) - but Bones knew better. The only "beat" that's been followed was the men inside the tank being stabbed, and blown up. the entire scene was reworked according to the director's wishes and nothing in tone was really changed.And what we got was one of the coolest scenes to come out of anime. (IMHO)
_____________________________

When it comes to animated series, you have to have meeting after meeting after meeting trying to keep art direction consistent. Backgrounds consistent, animation somewhat consistent. Animation production is a LARGE group project, and to top it all off it has people pulling strings from every direction. Your average manga is released in some form of anthology magazine. The mangaka has much more creative freedom, and is limited by his own ability to work, and maybe what his editor thinks should be changed (or heaven forbid if his manga has to end because it's failing). In anime you have to factor in:

Concept
Script
Art and color direction
Background design and direction
Storyboard direction
Distribution of labor
Episode layouts
animatics
Key animation
Inbetween animation
animation checking
coloring
compositing and lighting
voice acting
Etc etc.

and a lot of the times not all of these are done in the same company. so now you have to keep up with your staff, and the staff of another company that is Sub contracted to work for you, on top of being asked to deliver by a Tv station, and any other affiliates who sponsored your series.

So TL:DR
Not really. It's ok to compare how things panned out, the pacing, etc etc. but the production? not-so much.

[kinisking]

Rj have you made that zoro manga Vs anime point before? I could've sworn I've read that before.

[A Man named RJ]

Rj have you made that zoro manga Vs anime point before? I could've sworn I've read that before.

I may have. I actually was talking to some of my pals from College (other animators) and explained why a lot of anime fight scenes can fall flat. I may have used that point here as well, though I dont believe i did it here. I may have done it over at OP Bay.

When coming up with these things I go for the quickest one to remember, and that Zoro scene is really easy to remember.

I mean any big attack works. It's plastered all over OP. and even naruto
Manga:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Anime:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[kinisking]

Rj have you made that zoro manga Vs anime point before? I could've sworn I've read that before.

I may have. I actually was talking to some of my pals from College (other animators) and explained why a lot of anime fight scenes can fall flat. I may have used that point here as well, though I dont believe i did it here. I may have done it over at OP Bay.

When coming up with these things I go for the quickest one to remember, and that Zoro scene is really easy to remember.

I mean any big attack works. It's plastered all over OP. and even naruto
Manga:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Anime:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I really want to know where I've seen this Haha. It's weird I remember someone saying that exact same thing with the exact same picture. I know it's not dejavu because I opened the picture before I read the rest and I knew what the text was going to be about before I even read it. This is going to bug me

[dhaval_dongre]

Oh man, that Battle of Gods cut is one of my favorites and his other works are outstanding too, it looks like he has worked only on movies for Dragon Ball though.
If he really is coming back and animating Super I expect to see great things if you say he is one of Toei's best.
It also looks like his art stays very on model which is something I like.

Oh, and by the way, the kanji reads "Last modified" next to those dates on the character sheets, so there's no reason to believe they only had x amount of time for those episodes. More likely the rough designs were done way further back and those designs were just finalised for that date. Doubt it's anything significant. Could literally mean any aspect of that image.

Ah, that's nice. I was a bit worried there. So going by that, it means the schedule is still tight but better than earlier. I hope Wanpack is involved more during this arc. What about Triple A ? I think we haven't seen them after #9.

[Sodhi]

Triple A is nothing significant. Usually for 2nd KA. Last time we saw them was #10.

[Alee9977]

I saw the manga but I prefer the anime version, it is a lot of times better, but that doesn't mean I didn't like the manga version, is pretty good, and has a lot of explanations too.

[Hit!!]

Probably easier to explain with images, I guess.

Yamamuro then:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Yamamuro now:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]


Yamamuro's work is incredibly bubbly and disproportionate these days. The hair is detailed in a way that makes it look unnatural -- almost detached like a lego's hair -- and the stiff line work doesn't help. Faces are now significantly shorter, with stiffer eyes and rounded noses, and the shading is now a simple straight line up the face rather than an indent that defines the face -- this makes everyone look rounder and bubbly. Vegeta has a giant head and Goku's face is too wide (the same goes for many others) -- I just want to pull everyone's faces down. The jawline used to be much shorter on many characters, whereas now it extends very far out, which is one of the main causes for the giant faces. The eyes no longer arch so the current iterations never look expressive when they need to. The chest muscles no longer make much sense. Noses that were once defined from all angles are now just strange shapes that look likes gaping holes in the middle of faces. Piccolo's antennae sit far too high up on his head, so they can't be used in conjunction with this eyebrows anymore to create really cool expressions. The list goes on...

His designs are just so bad. They're ugly. There is nothing charismatic about them. They look like drawings of lifeless figurines, and his promo art lately only makes things worse with how horribly uninspired it all is. Animators on projects under him can't even break the mold since his draconian approach to supervision means he will redraw all of your work if he feels like it. It sucks.

Don't even get me started on his ability to animate compared to how high up he is within the company...

Thank you so much for this illustration and explanation. I really appreciate it and agree with you. Yamamuro's designs today look like a joke compared to the 90's. Seriously, this "modern" look is really affecting the series. The only character that looks remotely badass is Black and his design is a little closer to the 90's standard, but even so, not even close.

This answers sooo many questions, being the main one "why is it that characters in super look so harmless and not menacing at all??". I blamed it on the bad animation and art, but it seems that the character design plays a huge role in this.

Look at how scary Goku looks in these shots:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And in this clip:

https://youtu.be/tE63qSSXegY?t=402

[Hit!!]

Repeated post. Please delete.

[Hit!!]

Repeated post. Pleace delete.

[Sodhi]

I might be in the minority here but I like how black looks. He seems to be someone with a very high ranking in the universe.Yea I get that he is a villain but at the same time he is looking down upon humans.Alsothis https://youtu.be/tE63qSSXegY?t=402 makes me feel bad as to how dumb goku has gotten.

[Hit!!]

I might be in the minority here but I like how black looks. He seems to be someone with a very high ranking in the universe.Yea I get that he is a villain but at the same time he is looking down upon humans.Alsothis https://youtu.be/tE63qSSXegY?t=402 makes me feel bad as to how dumb goku has gotten.

I also like how Black looks, heck, right now he's the best looking character in Super. He looks 10x times better than the actual Goku, which is hilarious. Goku's face looks all messed up everytime they show him now, but when they show Black, he looks so badass. The only problem is that he still doesn't look AS badass as old 90's designs.

[emperior]

So I'm not the only one who noticed Goku's face is almost always messed up? Black has been drawn consistently good so far. It feels weird how most of the time they can't get the protagonist's face to look good.