Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[Mythros]

I'm not going to discuss why it's mediocre in this thread, but this also another cancerous school of thought on this forum. It's not an "opinion", it's a fact - if you don't think so then you have a very limited understanding of storytelling, character building, production, and a lot of other narrative and production related concepts. And usually that comes down to lack of maturity or taste. (maturity in the sense that you have not been exposed good pieces of work or haven't had time to refine your tastes)

For instance, it can be your opinion that Beethoven and Bach are not for you, and you don't enjoy them. But to say that "they suck" or to take one of their symphonies and tell me its mediocre shows you have no basic understanding of music theory & composition and therefore your "opinion" really has no value whatsoever because you are basing it off of a place of ignorance.

I'm sorry, what?

Firstly, the analogy makes little sense, and doesn't map to the criticism it is making very well. The salient point at issue is whether Super as an artistic work can be objectively bad, not whether the opinion that it 'sucks' or does not is an opinion that can be backed up. The two are entirely different, and it would do good not to conflate them. The merit of any and all artistic works is subjective. Even buying into the bizarre form of the appeal to authority fallacy here (references to literary understanding, the person being derided having 'limited understanding' and a 'lack of maturity' seem to suggest this is the argument being made), general critical consensus around a work, from the most respected critics, changes over time. The first performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring reportedly caused a riot due to its controversial breaks from traditions of music and ballet choreography. If even the authorities who are supposed to have a firm grasp on 'narrative and production related concepts' can change their tune over the decades, how could the merits of a piece of art ever be 'fact'?

Secondly, as a musician whose background is in 'classical' (the form, not the period) -- though I do more contemporary and Jazz composition/performance now -- I think the vast majority of Mozart's oeuvre is poor quality. Particularly his major-tonality pieces and the piano works with their boring, repetitive Alberti bass in the left hand. And forget about Clementi, because at this point he's the cheap man's Mozart, so he's even worse. That far more musicians consider Mozart to be a master of his craft than not is irrelevant to whether an evaluation of his output is objective or subjective. Should I return back all of my ABRSM music theory graded books? Clearly, since I have disagreed with the majority opinion, it shows I 'have no basic understanding of music theory & composition and therefore [my] "opinion" really has no value whatsoever'. Because, though I might explain why the first theme of his Symphony no. 29 in A major has one of the most unoriginal motif repetitions down an octave in the strings and uninspired development in the B section, I am of course evidently 'basing it off of [sic] a place of ignorance.'

If there is an objective metric for measuring works like Super, I should love to see it. We all await with bated breath at the single numerical amount on a scale that represents Super's artistic quality, and what each number represents on the scale, for bad, mediocre and good. If artistic merit is objective, this should be as easy as determining the boiling point of water at sea level.

Animation

Regarding the animation, I really was scratching my head over why it is the character designs seem so off. Dragon Ball has changed over time, yes, yes, but the characters somehow all manage to seem... not themselves. Almost like fan art. @Ajay, your explanation of what has happened to Yamamuro was so spot on, it suddenly clicked that that was what I had been failing to see. The faces really do look quite wide, and everything a little bubbly. The eyes have also been distinctly non-Dragon Ball, if there can be such a thing as non-Dragon Ball. Sad to see how far he's fallen, especially looking at the comparison shots.

[VegettoEX]

Appropriate user has been dealt with. Please return the conversation to its intended course. Thank you!

[Noah]

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God... I'm the only one who despises 2010's remake PTETSSJ? It's so plastic animated that it hurts! Look this scene why their beams are all blue? Budget issues? What a poorly done remake, damn.

[Lookerman]

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God... I'm the only one who despises 2010's remake PTETSSJ? It's so plastic animated that it hurts! Look this scene why their beams are all blue? Budget issues? What a poorly done remake, damn.

Weren't the beams usually blue to begin with? I seem to recall Kamehameha waves to be blueish-white.

[Dbzfan94]

So I'm not the only one who noticed Goku's face is almost always messed up? Black has been drawn consistently good so far. It feels weird how most of the time they can't get the protagonist's face to look good.

I noticed it too, although maybe not consciosuly. lol

[SonsOfUlron21]

I'm more pissed that they can't draw his muscles at all.

[emperior]

I'm more pissed that they can't draw his muscles at all.

This too. Goku looks very bad drawn most of the times. They draw him so consistently bad I actually spot it when he's drawn great.
Like here:
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He's drawn pretty good in this shot in my opinion, even though he would obviously look better with different colors and shades.

[Anime Kitten]

I don't understand what's so wrong with the colors. They look fine to me in pretty much the whole show.

[ekrolo2]

Nah, if there's one guy who consistently looks bad it is most definitely Piccolo, I can't name any good shots for him besides his fight with Frost.

[SonsOfUlron21]

I'm guessing it's the schedule but it can't be that hard to draw these characters.

[Ajay]

Nah, if there's one guy who consistently looks bad it is most definitely Piccolo, I can't name any good shots for him besides his fight with Frost.

Shimanuki consistently draws an excellent Piccolo.

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I quite like Tate's simple take on him, too.

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I think a lot of reasons Piccolo doesn't look good is because he's usually just a simple background character or only on-screen for a couple of seconds. It's not worth an animator's time to draw out something perfect when time could be better spent on the important parts of episode.

[emperior]

I don't understand what's so wrong with the colors. They look fine to me in pretty much the whole show.

What I don't like is the plastic/shiny look, I especially dislike how Goku's hair is drawn recently. It should look exactly like Black's.
If you go look the colors of DBZ, Goku's skin tone should be different, as well as Vegeta's and many other characters.
The big problem though, as mentioned many times here, are the character designs.

[Anime Kitten]

The "plastic" looks okay to me. Sure, it's not natural, but it doesn't really bug me.

[ArchedThunder]

I think a lot of reasons Piccolo doesn't look good is because he's usually just a simple background character or only on-screen for a couple of seconds. It's not worth an animator's time to draw out something perfect when time could be better spent on the important parts of episode.

Yeah, when it's just a head shot of Piccolo he usually looks fine, but they so rarely do that for him in the show.

[Avok]

Piccolo looks too round and wide nowadays, but I think that goes for everyone. I preffer this design:

1
2
3

The color is another story.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I don't understand what's so wrong with the colors. They look fine to me in pretty much the whole show.

What I don't like is the plastic/shiny look, I especially dislike how Goku's hair is drawn recently. It should look exactly like Black's.
If you go look the colors of DBZ, Goku's skin tone should be different, as well as Vegeta's and many other characters.
The big problem though, as mentioned many times here, are the character designs.

Yeah, I really dislike how base Goku's hair looks it is my only real gripe, maybe they did it so to differentiate between the two better?

[nite_jay]

The "plastic" look can look good to me, but Toei isn't very good at it. They usually never use a proper lightsource, and the way they apply highlights they are really distracting. Instead of applying them in a natural looking way, they put these big rectangles of white in weird places on the cheeks and hair.

[emperior]

I don't understand what's so wrong with the colors. They look fine to me in pretty much the whole show.

What I don't like is the plastic/shiny look, I especially dislike how Goku's hair is drawn recently. It should look exactly like Black's.
If you go look the colors of DBZ, Goku's skin tone should be different, as well as Vegeta's and many other characters.
The big problem though, as mentioned many times here, are the character designs.

Yeah, I really dislike how base Goku's hair looks it is my only real gripe, maybe they did it so to differentiate between the two better?

Well they are already different enough, and Goku's hair has always looked like that in Super. When Black won't be around, it will continue to look bad.
They just need to eliminate every sort of shading/lighting effect on character's hair. It's also easier for them to animate hair when there is no shading.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

What I don't like is the plastic/shiny look, I especially dislike how Goku's hair is drawn recently. It should look exactly like Black's.
If you go look the colors of DBZ, Goku's skin tone should be different, as well as Vegeta's and many other characters.
The big problem though, as mentioned many times here, are the character designs.

Yeah, I really dislike how base Goku's hair looks it is my only real gripe, maybe they did it so to differentiate between the two better?

Well they are already different enough, and Goku's hair has always looked like that in Super. When Black won't be around, it will continue to look bad.
They just need to eliminate every sort of shading/lighting effect on character's hair. It's also easier for them to animate hair when there is no shading.

True, I guess I never noticed how bad it was until Black came along. I am okay with how any SS Goku looks I actually prefer SSGSS with that shiny plasticy tint to it but yeah doesn't work on his base hair.

[Noah]

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God... I'm the only one who despises 2010's remake PTETSSJ? It's so plastic animated that it hurts! Look this scene why their beams are all blue? Budget issues? What a poorly done remake, damn.

Weren't the beams usually blue to begin with? I seem to recall Kamehameha waves to be blueish-white.

No. Only Kamehameha as you said and Big Bang Attack, but Masenko, Burning Attack and Makankosappo are all different colors, also not only their beams are the same color but its shape too! F****** hate this.